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Do we want the level cap to be raised ever again?


Z-Wave
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Do we want the level cap to be raised ever again?  

172 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your take on the idea that Kinkoid will raise the level cap again in the future?

    • Sure, raise it when the first people get to Level 500, the show must go on!
      22
    • It's alright, but please wait a bit so people can catch up and accumulate at Level 500 first.
      35
    • I don't know or I don't care
      10
    • No, please don't raise the level for a long time. If we have hundreds of people at 500, it's maybe worth considering.
      54
    • No, never, just stick to 500 or below. Raising it beyond 400 already was a mistake.
      51


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Hey everybody,

let's start the discussion early on and accumulate arguments for and against the idea of Kinkoid raising the level cap again. Tell us why specifically you decided one way or the other and please always stay respectful! This way Kinkoid will get a good impression of their playerbase and be able to make an informed decision.

I'll add my 2 Cents in my next post. Looking forward to your ideas and thoughts!

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Okay, here's my take and reasoning (please vote first though before reading on, I don't want to influence you upfront).

I voted for No (the absolute No) and here is why: It becomes boring and doesn't add value to the game for me if numbers are randomly raised. For some time now I'm number 16 on the Exp Leaderboard and feel like having a good strategy when it comes to win the leagues. Therefore about 9 out of 10 times I know that I'll definitely gonna win, while on a few occasions I definitely know I'll end up second or third. You could say I'm pretty much a beneficiary of the system in place which rewards the whales / long time players that are elevated to a privileged position. There's simply no danger and no thrill anymore, I just work down my checklist and I know the outcome in advance.

So if we had a true level cap that is preserved for eternity (or at least for a very long time), we'll end up having lots of level 500 players and therefore competition will become fierce and challenging again. I'll probably win much less Kobans, but I'm close to not needing that many Kobans anyway since I'll probably obtain all obtainable girls this year. So I wonder if even I don't see any benefit from raising the level cap, who would? Maybe I'm wrong though and there are legit and convincing arguments for going beyond 500. If so, please enlighten me!

Probably the most important topic to discuss in this is money. Let's face it, Kinkoid is a Business and therefore wants to decide for the most profitable solution. But again I'm thinking that not raising the level cap would be the right choice here. On first glance one might think that infinitely raising the max level would lure the whales into paying more and more money and be the way to go. When you think about it, the opposite might be the case. Because of the ridiculous free rewards for whales (14.4K Kobans + 1 free Pachinko girl per week from D3 League alone) there's no real reason to spend any real money anymore. I personally changed from the gold monthly card to the silver monthly card a few months ago, because I just didn't need the extra Kobans or free spins on Champions and Villains. I assume most of us high level players don't invest any more than the monthly gold card because there's just no value to get. On the other side: If the level cap would stay at 500, we would at some point not get those guaranteed rank 1 D3 rewards anymore that can easily pay for all the new content. There will be a real competition, and Kobans will become more valuable again, so we might spend some actual money. For everybody not yet in the whale-tier it would be more desirable to get there as quickly as possible so they can compete with absolutely everybody, thererfore their payments will increase (or at least not decrease). It's a win-win for everyone.

Now I don't have the numbers to support that last claim, but that's what this thread is for. Please let's hear your take on this and what you spend or would spend in each scenario.

@Noacc @Kinkoid I'm looking forward to your reactions here as well. Before deciding on whether you increase the level cap any further, please have a good read and ask us anything. We're here to help you make this great game even better! :)

Edited by Z-Wave
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Hi Z-Wave!

I am like you a veteran of this game, currently, rank 34 sorted by all-time "XP Experience". 
As one of the top players, I am still against the idéa of raising the level cap, even though this gives me a huge advantage in the leagues. Why I personally believe that I will explain below.

I have years of experience of playing different RPG games (MMO's included) like Tera Online, Blade and Soul and Diablo 3. 

Let's look at Diablo 3. What destroyed the balance and fairness in Diablo 3 was the introduction of "paragon levels", the idéa was very nice, as it came with an endless goal, as the paragon levels have still today no cap, each paragon level adds +5 to your main stat. This means that Diablo 3 has an endless farming system, no end goal in sight. This means it's impossible to get a spot on the leaderboard as a new player, or as a casual player. Of course, play to win is way better than pay to win, but when play to win is endless, it just gets extremely unfair, and there is no way to catch up. This was however fixed with the introduction of seasons, where everyone can start off fresh every 3 months and only competing against others that have also started off fresh, but that's a story for another time.

What games like Hentai Heroes need IMO is end-game content, and end game content for Diablo is Greater Rifts, where you first choose a difficulty level and then have 15 minutes to clear that level. End game content for Tera Online is instances (or dungeons), which are remade or replaced with other dungeons with future patches, keeping the farming relatively fresh. Another thing Tera have is guild wars, and my personal favorite, World Rally. Rally is an event that was every day, a world message was showing up for everybody on screen and in the chat that the Rally would start in 15 minutes. What is rally in this context you ask? An event where anyone could participate (as long as you were at maximum level)) by going to a certain location and fight against a boss. You would form a party beforehand and the party that did the most damage against the boss received the best rewards, even the party that came in last still got rewards good enough for making their time worth it. This is something that could potentially be implemented in HH I think, where a "super boss" spawns and the whole community fights against it, and the more we fight against it the bigger the rewards, and also, to make it fair, the ones dragging their feet by only fighting it a couple of times will get fewer rewards than someone fighting it a lot, for balancing purposes it makes sense that the more damage you do the better the rewards rather than the number of fights, just so that it will be easier to claim rewards at a higher level. What could the rewards be then for HH? Kobans, Ymens, gear, orbs, girls... you name it.

Another thing we need to think about now is that when you are at max level the XP from ToF, daily quest and arena needs to be replaced by something else, which could be a currency for level 500 players only, a currency that can only be spent in a lvl 500 shop for items or stat upgrades, maybe something that will upgrade the stats of specific girls or specific gear pieces? To a cap of course. There is so much potential here that could be upgradeable. If not, the rewards could just be the normal plain boring kobans and the other stuff, but this would not feel so rewarding like the new currency for upgrading never before upgradeable stuff would be for someone at maximum level IMO.
How about maybe being able to buy a 4th girl slot? Right now I rarely ever summon my 3rd girl in fights, and if this still holds true at level 500 then perfect! It won't affect (almost) any fight in the arena/ToF, but it will be perfect for when we are fighting the world boss that I talked about before, who will have a ton of EGO! A 4th girl will increase both your damage and defense (when summoned), giving you that advantage you always dreamt of ;)

Edit: I also want to add that I was talking about the paragon levels from Diablo 3 because I wanted to dwell on the "I know how you feel" towards everyone that can't win in D3 no matter what they try, simply because they don't have the levels. I know many people who are dropping out of D3 to try their best in D2, so they are only ever competing every 2 weeks. This is, however, a flaw in the league's design, where placing roughly the same in D2 almost equals that of D3, except that it's way easier to place higher in D2 compared to D3. Shouldn't you be "rewarded" for even getting into D3? The hardest league available? It should IMO be worth staying in D3, unless maybe you always end up last. Because right now, the rewards for being 2nd every week in D3 equals that of placing 1st in D2 every 2 weeks, it's actually worse koban wise if you take into account the number of boosters you need to use.

In short, I think it would feel more rewarding to add end-game content rather than just keep raising the level cap, as this makes people lose interest in the game when there is no end goal, this statement is true for many people that I've talked to this about, including me, and this game is not the only one where this statement is true.

Thanks for reading all this, please take this with a pinch of salt, as this is just my own opinions and ideas, which in practice MIGHT actually be really bad, I am after all not a game designer, but I am however a gamer whit past experiences of what I personally found funny in games, which makes my opinion hold some value IMO :D 

Edited by Slynia
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I am a low level player. I am personally not against raising the level cap, cause why not? High level players need to do something, right? This could be implemented with XP adjustment for lower levels though, so that they could somewhat catch up a bit better, but that's optional. Veteran players deserve the advantage in league\kobans\girls, cause they spent a lot of time and money, playing the game. That's totally fine.

@Z-Wave, I see 3 concerns in your post (correct me if I am wrong). 1) You somewhat lack competitive league 2) You acquired all the girls and have nothing to do in the game 3) You worry about the financial state of Kinkoid and the future of the game in that regard

I don't think that your concerns can be solved by raising or not raising the level cap. @Slynia is on point with solving the issues, I think.

I can add that a lot of freemium games implement paid only cosmetics to spent the money on. And I see a HUGE opportunity for this game to implement all sorts of cosmetics and improve the current character screen (by adding different characters for example), scenes screen, avatars screen and so on. There are always people who like to collect all the special paid only things that will differ them from the others (from other plebs LUL). That's totally fine.

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Although on a more simplicistic level, I agree to previous posts. I directly voted to the absolute no (and, again, was pleased to note that the majority did the same). As I already said elsewhere in the past, a game sooner or later should have some form of ending. In my humble opinion, although made with a purpose, repeating everyday, many times a day, the same actions, over and over for years, even for a fan player, sooner of later gets boring, and players start to wish for something new or different. Moreover, one thing that can be pointed out is that no one hinders the devs to establish an ending to HH and project something like "Hentai Heroes 2: the new sex journey". At the same time, no one hinders the devs to allow to accumulate experience after level 500 and give players some form of reward every x experience (orbs in this case would probably be perfect). On the matter of player equalization, I will repeat something that I wrote in one of my oldest posts: in my humble opinion, when the argument is the so called freemium games, the main difference in reaching the same results (or, if you prefer, obtaining the same rewards) between free and paying players should simply be a reasonable amount of time (the fact that "reasonable" in that sentence may be entirely subjective, is another matter, although absolutely important). In the past I said more than one time that I absolutely recognize the devs right to gain their dues for the game they have developed, but, returning to my initial words, every game should have an end.

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I consider the HH level cap the same as playing an MMO, i played Blizzard games for a long time and i played WoW specifically for 7+ years, yeah they made a lot of expansions to the game raising the level cap each time but not before doing a ton of end game content for those who reached the level cap.

What i mean is that HH should have stayed at 400 and KK should have made end game content for single-player but also finally introducing club wars for both a multi-player part and making the clubs important so all members can participate in daily basis and doing daily progress just like the way they do for their character every day.

I have read somewhere and i totally agree that leveling up is half the game and the other half is the progress you do on becoming stronger after reaching the level cap but as i see it KK doesn't want to break the cycle or routine that made their game so successful, what i mean is why invent new end game features or try to balance all three classes or doing anything new when they can just raise the level cap and make the players play the game for another two years to reach it, because let's face it it takes two years more or less to reach 400 and it will take another two more or less years to reach 500, after that KK will raise the cap to 600 and players will have to play for another 2-3 years to reach it so here's your recipe of success.

In short: who needs the burden of having a level cap so the devs have to make end game content to satisfy their max level players when they can just keep raising the level cap and keep the successful routine that has been going for the last 3-4 years but with this strategy the players enjoy only "half" of the game.

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13 minutes ago, casey said:

sure let them limit the top level to 500 ...........it will give me an excellent reason to quit playing

Absolutely the wrong way to look at it. If they implement end-game content that you can farm instead, for rewards other than XP (as I mentioned in my previous post), it will still be the same in the sense that you gain more power just by playing, except that it will feel fresh because it's new and different. Farming XP for another ~2 years can't possibly sound more appealing? 🤔

Edited by Slynia
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I voted for the level raise, but I will accept and try to adapt to anything the devs do in this matter.

Casey has a point. If the max level is fixed, some people will reach it and will think is end game and will leave.

Z-wave concern about the league not being challenging enough is interesting, and I share his idea about less real money for the devs because of the kobans and orbs rewards for winners (and I have benefitted a lot from it), but remember that there are only around 50 D3 leagues, and perhaps 70-100 D2, so a small fraction of the total player base will get that rewards.

Slynia idea about end game content and special missions is nice, but this is not a real time fighting game, so there is not such close analogies with those games.

Тёмный Властелин (you should give us a nick in latin script :P) is correct in stating that players want to be competitive and win, and his idea about cosmetic content could be good, but aren't avatars and character items just for that?

Observer_X point of view is logical as he is playing in hard mode, without the level cap it will be harder for him to catch up, but he did a good job reaching level 400, so is an example that you don't have to pay to reach a good position.

I share Hotless ideas about the always delayed introduction of club activites and his correct statement about not changing the success mechanics and routines of the game.

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41 minutes ago, jelom said:

If the max level is fixed, some people will reach it and will think is end game and will leave.

I disagree. This would only happen if the devs would not implementing any end-game content besides leveling. If they would not give us any end-game content, then raising the level cap is about the only thing they can do, but I promise you that by doing so, many players will stop playing for that reason as well.

41 minutes ago, jelom said:

but this is not a real time fighting game

I guess this is about my idea of a "super boss"? I totally understand your point in that it wouldn't work the same way here as in Tera Online. However, there are many ways to go about it, like making the boss have infinite EGO, and the more ego we as a whole community (or as a club? or individually?) takes from it, the greater our rewards. Like the boss would have certain thresholds, or goal lines if you so want to call it that. For example: If we take 10M ego from it we get X rewards, and if/when we take 20M ego we unlock the next reward stage, and so on. To make it fair to all timezones, the boss could be around for 24 hours(?) and only reappear once every 2-7 days instead of every day. I personally think this sounds like a great and more importantly, fun, idea. There is room for improvement obviously.
Edit: I also want to add that we are still several months away from having our first player reach level 500, which will most likely be Gogeta, and taking into account the speed he levels in, there will be a couple of months before we have our 2nd level 500 after him, that's just how far ahead he is. So the devs do have time to come up with something that could be considered end-game.

41 minutes ago, jelom said:

his correct statement about not changing the success mechanics and routines of the game.

I agree and disagree. All games need new content to keep their player base motivated to keep playing, but we don't want a completely new game, so keep the mechanics but do "changes" to the things that don't work as well. IMHO, just raising the level cap will make people stop playing, and will discourage new players. Setting a goal of level 500 and giving us end game content, will give new players a chance at the very least to someday catch up and take part in it, raising the level cap will make new players always be left behind. To keep games alive, they constantly need to bring in new players, if they can't, they need to keep as many of their current players as possible, or the game will simply just die. Imagine having ~20 players at lvl 500+ in D3 and everyone else being at lvl ~300 because everyone else in between quit when they saw no goal in sight. 

Edited by Slynia
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I voted for a raise but with a waiting period to do it, so at least some player can catch up. I like the idea of making progress indefinitely.

I dont see any problem in raising the level, who cares honestly, if what you truly want is girls. Well, that said, it's the same argument for not raising it anymore. So most likely the lvl cap isnt the problem at all, it seems to be the pvp-system or in a great scheme the balance in total.

For instance it's not fair, or at least most people would feel a unfairness in it, that some player who already have a ton of achievements (i.e. girls mostly) get every (!) week another 3-5 girls for free whereas new player wont reach this anytime soon (or maybe even ever - as it stands a lot of players, almost everybody under 400 has to play demote/promote-game to get the best koban value, which also means the difference to the top players will not be closed (experience wise or koban wise, and i think, a level cap wont do it either ). It's also not fair, that you cant being a HC or CH player if you really want to be competitive. And it's also not fair, that you spend over 20k harem  upgrades or more  (and maybe beat all players on the whole server for a week) just to get 5M Yemens, a purple item and almost no xp but for spending some of this amount in a daily contest where you just have to beat 50 players and you are able to snip it you can get 50 kobans and 3 tickets (which is in my stadium 4M Ymen, probably more if you count items and girls from orbs etc. in). Obviously, some of these unbalances aren't as dramatic as others (every player can switch to KH, can choose his contests, etc.) , but still all of them combined give probably a feeling of injustice.

The level cap seems at first glance like a good way to balance this out, sooner or later all player will be the same level. But then again, a lvl 500 HC player will almost never win a league in this current system, he will still get only 5M Ymen on finishing first in ToF harem upgrade, etc. pp. For sure, adding late/end-game content makes a lvl cap better, but you could also have this without a cap. And personally I would prefer more content and no level cap, but of course, rather more content than no level cap.

I think you have to face the problem in his core, and that's how the free currency and experience is distributed. That means for instance ...

... to rebalance the league: make it possible that lower players also have a chance of a decent reward; put for instance, all 100 top players in a league, than the next 100 etc. pp. (or make it the top 500 that you mix it up), make it possible to stay in any league if you win it, ...

... find a way to increase experience for lower players that are not possible for older (e.g. you can buy it with kobans but only 10 lvl short to the highest, ...)

... balance the classes even better 

... rework the tower of fame rewards

...

Of course, there would be new unbalances but I am not hoping for a fair game, just a fairer one.

On a side note: You can easily see how little they thought about the increase to 500 and it's effects on the system in the daily contests, You could have easily made a new tier 401-440, etc. but they dont seem to care (obviously they couldnt do it right away but if there were 51 players over 400 it would be possible - which was clearly the case as they 'reworked' the contests - and a new tier would even be a upgrade for high level players, since they would have a chance for winning an girl experience contest again)

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I just wanted to help but i don't really understand how pointing out that some players may be ignorant about something is a bad thing, there are players who have experienced more things than others, i can give you my story and then you decide by yourself (in a civil manner) if you agree or not, anyway if you want an explanation on what end game content means for me then i think i can give you one.

I only have played one genre and game in particular that it strongly believes in end game content and the devs focus all their resources into it, i am talking about mmorpg world of warcraft, i played it for 8+ years and gone through at least three expansions.

What they did for starters is to differentiate the max level players from the rest, so in HH all features that target a level range will be for example 401-499 and then 500 only or 401-450, 451-499 and then 500, etc.so contests, leagues and arena will have their own bracket for max level players but sadly one bad thing is how HH is structured, i mean that in an mmorpg the devs wanted their players to reach the max level in a reasonably fast pace (in other words within a month or two if you played casually every day) while in HH it takes you 2 whole years at least if you play semi-hardcore (getting at least 100k xp per week).

Anyway if everything goes well then we will have a healthy pool of 500 players, the entire D3 league will be 500lvl players so the winner will be the one who strategized the most and have the best equipment rather than just brute force In arena it will be the same thing and we will only have the +-1000 parameter while the +-15lvl will be removed upon reaching the max level, this gives the opportunity to the devs to improve mojo and make it more important as well as increase the +-1000 parameter.

Anyway those things won't make the game any different but it will give the max level players true goals to target and it will prolong the game indefinitely, also i don't think that it's a huge workload for the devs to implemend it but as i said it takes an insane amount of time to get to 400 and another insane amount to get to 500, it's been nine months that the level cap have been raised to 500 and until today we have 1200+ players in HH and almost 150 players in GH that are 400+ level so yeah from just 5 that we had nine months ago to 1200+ in less than a year and more are coming up.

Edited by Hotless
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5 minutes ago, Hotless said:

From what i have read so far people who voted for a level raise don't really understand what end game content means, anyway i can't bother to explain it at this time maybe i'll do it later.

Please wait with such posts until you have the time to elaborate it. I know you don't mean to, but words like this can come across rude. There's not one single objective meaning of endgame, plus I already talked to some people who don't care about proper endgame since they are in it for the story and scenes only. Looking forward to your next post! 👍

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22 hours ago, jelom said:

Observer_X point of view is logical as he is playing in hard mode, without the level cap it will be harder for him to catch up, but he did a good job reaching level 400, so is an example that you don't have to pay to reach a good position.

Believe me, my friend, my point of view would be exactly the same even if my actual kobans would have been already used for 48 Epic Pachinko x10 spins, thus giving me other 48 girls for my harem and a truckload of items to sell for money or upgrade my equipment.

I would also address a point that up to now has been addressed only indirectly: the meaning of "endgame" can be different from player to player. Reaching level 400 for me was an old objective, one that I could estimate (at the time i decided to pursue it) I would have been able to reach before my patience for the game would exhaust. Personally I think that a good endgame for me would be having in my harem all the girls that I like (independently from the level that I will reach), and that requires that at some point in the future, the devs would put the word "end" to further game development, simply because, as a free player, save a big change in the game mechanics, I will be never be able to reach that objective otherwise (as @jelom pointed out), "hard mode" or not. This also may be applied to every free player, that would never be able to reach a similar objective, and that would be highly unfair from the devs.

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The point of the game is to get all the girls, who cares about leveling up once you hit the max. All these whiners saying there's nothing left to do once you max out- bet you don't have a complete harem

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4 hours ago, nope1 said:

The point of the game is to get all the girls, who cares about leveling up once you hit the max. All these whiners saying there's nothing left to do once you max out- bet you don't have a complete harem

Actually, a lot of these high level players will have a complete harem (of course, there could be missing 1-10 girls) because of their constant gold income. But that's only a thing for the top50-100 players (obviously also for whales). Players who reach the max level later wont have such amout of kobans, maybe they will get it after a few months/years when they have catched up.

edit: I think, when I reach lvl 500 I also could have a huge harem - not all girls for sure, but a lot; at least if there isnt a change in the koban rewards

Edited by blaa
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16 hours ago, nope1 said:

The point of the game is to get all the girls, who cares about leveling up once you hit the max. All these whiners saying there's nothing left to do once you max out- bet you don't have a complete harem

Impossible to get all the girls even if you are $500 patreon it still is since even they are not able to get all the patreon girls since some are limited to one person only lol.

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@Z-Wave
A bit late to react. 
Read all the feedback (a few times, long 😁 I've passed it to the team of course) 

Personally, I'm not that competitive when it comes to games and levels to me ain't that much of a deal whether I reach the max level or not. But then again I do believe most of our community has a very competitive spirit.
My thoughts behind this are that the game is progressing and more features will be added in the future, with more exp. to be earned.

The game is constantly being developed and the team will balance is out in the best possible way.
 

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21 minutes ago, Noacc said:

My thoughts behind this that the game is progressing and more features will be added in the future, with more exp. to be earned.

I think that's a fair statement. 👍
Right now I gain about 1 level per week, and I'm currently level 430. This means that it will take me at least 70 more weeks to reach level 500 in this tempo, that's almost 1.5 years (but as you need slightly more EXP per level I think it will take even longer right?) and I've already played this game for almost 3 years.

Another problem with raising the level cap (in the games current state) is the economy. Buying equipment (especially legendary) from the market and the Great Pachinko 10x roll are already extremely expensive at my level. This is in other words, also something that needs to be looked into for the future.

Looking forward to what you guys are gonna come up with Noacc my Tachibana lover in law! 😂

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I am in a sort of Limbo where I'm ever just out of reach for the bulk of people, but will never catch up with the big earners. Don't get me wrong, I make decent prize money from 5-15th and the occasional top 4 in D3, but I always feel changes come just before or quickly after I arrived to the point where others have been so long they call it boring. I'd like to have a little level cap break, after which the best players will no doubt be able to create a gap between them ans the rest, but at least then for them it's interesting and for us, we have a chance to get in the mix. 

 

This is mostly self interest of course, but hey, I play for me. :P 
 

 

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2 hours ago, DHarry said:

I am in a sort of Limbo where I'm ever just out of reach for the bulk of people, but will never catch up with the big earners. Don't get me wrong, I make decent prize money from 5-15th and the occasional top 4 in D3, but I always feel changes come just before or quickly after I arrived to the point where others have been so long they call it boring. I'd like to have a little level cap break, after which the best players will no doubt be able to create a gap between them ans the rest, but at least then for them it's interesting and for us, we have a chance to get in the mix. 

 

This is mostly self interest of course, but hey, I play for me. :P 
 

 

I always though we had about the same level, until I looked recently, and I saw I was quite a bit ahead of you... did I remember wrongly or did you play a bit less active for a while?

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Yes, I dropped away. I was always a few levels behind you, but not this much. Most 'damage' was done in October when circumstances prevented me from playing for almost three weeks completely. Was a bit slow to get back into it again after. 

But yes, seeing you win leagues made me realize I missed out there.

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