Z-Wave Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 (edited) @jelom your statements are generally correct, but I'd say it's still a zero-sum game and you still effectively "steal" the opportunity to get the girl from somebody else (I never said you'd steal a girl directly, but indirectly you'll prevent another player from getting a girl). 1. In the game not everybody might win or "buy" the girls, but it's possible. Girls are (technically) an abundant resource and if everyone decided to spend a lot of money, it's possible to get all girls delivered to everyone. Of course a lot of people in their right mind wouldn't do that, but I'm always talking about the possibilities, not the conscious decisions players make to not get a girl because they deem her too expensive. With legendary contests, that changes dramatically. There's no possibility for everyone to win, there must be losers. Even if you save and spent a ton of money, you're technically not guaranteed to get a girl. 2. I'd say at a start of an event, there are infinite event girls available in the game's code. They will be distributed to everyone willing or capable to buy her with time or money. At tje start of a legendary contests, the amount of available girls are arbitrarily limited. Let's take your number and say the limit is 60% x number of competing players. Now in simplified terms: If you are on the winning side, there is somebody on the losing side who won't get a girl that he otherwise would have gotten if you were on the losing side instead. So effectively you "steal" his access to the girl, whether you like it or not. The game simply doesn't allow for the losing side to get the girl in the contest while in every previous event, the person on the "losing side" (aka a person performing less results) could simply buy the girl with Kobans in the Pachinko instead. Access was granted to everyone. In the end it's a matter of semantics and how you look at the situation, but I'm sure you agree that the legendary contests do inherently differ from what he had before regarding how many absolute players are allowed to get the girl, and that's what all my fuss is about. 😉 Edited June 17, 2020 by Z-Wave 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator FinderKeeper Posted June 17, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 17, 2020 I'm ok with getting resources from all types of PvP contests. I'm not ok with getting exclusive girls as rewards from said PvP contests. That's it for me. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefuci Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 This move turns the game into a zero-sum game: a player's gain can only come at the expense of, or by limiting/restricting/denying, another player. Being part of a community where we all strive to gather our girls, or being part of a group of players who compete over a limited resource are two very different things and has a *huge* impact on the the community/group of players behave. For example, why would you help another player on the forum, if he might end up beating you to a girl and you end up with nothing. Or even worse: less then nothing if you spend yemen, koban or even RL $ in an effort to win and yet lose. In the current game, there is room for casual game-play. In a zero-sum game, there is not. If this actually becomes a regular thing and the only way to get legendary 5-starts, I can already say I will leave. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Тёмный Властелин Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 1 hour ago, FinderKeeper said: I'm ok with getting resources from all types of PvP contests. I'm not ok with getting exclusive girls as rewards from said PvP contests. Girls are one of games resources. For girl's XP contest, giving you additional money for Ymens contest and upgrades \ shop items. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Goodfellow Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 1 hour ago, jelom said: I will contradict the zero sum game idea with two arguments: 1- This game is not about everybody always winning all girls. In all events, and especially in legendary days there is an important group of players who don't get the girls (or all of them). Players who know the game mechanics and commit his resources will always win more girls and resources than the rest (leaving apart the players who wins their rewards with real money). 2- When the event start, no one has the girl, so how can one "lose" her?. At start there are 0 people with the girl and at the end there are 60% or more players with her. I see an increase in the total of girls owned. In a zero sum game, the total number of girls at the end would be the same as the start, with some players starting without the girl and getting the girl from other players who previously owned her and finished the event without her. P.S.: I laughed with @_shal_'s sharp argument about league winners, but I also have to say that in a competition one don't lose on purpose to leave other player wins. This game also has a competitive side. I agree with you in that it is not a true zero sum game like what Z-Wave mentioned, but the fact that it forces some people to lose out on such highly prized rewards makes it seem like it is. The point really is, every event up till now, all players had equal footing in obtaining rewards. Some may get the girl before the event closes and some may have to spend some kobans (at their choice) to do some battle refills to get her - but if you did spend the kobans and resources, you know you can and will eventually get her before the event ends. With this new contest event and the way it is designed, there will ALWAYS be a group of players who lose out even if they invest in trying to succeed. Players can do the event like any other legendary 4-day event and just let lady-luck happen (get the girl or not). But for those coming up to the end of the event and they do not have the girl yet, they can choose to spend kobans and/or money to get the girl (like any other event) - HOWEVER - the way this Contest Event is designed - a player can spend those kobans/money and still not get the girl. And those who are in a timezone that favors the reset, they can potentially (ALL FOR FREE) get the girl AND some really cool other rewards too. That is completely not fair, and unbalanced. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eman Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Well, sometimes I'm able to get the Legendary girl in those events thanks to the kobans I've saved. With this new type of event, my chances are basically zero. It's impossible for me to tend ina good position in the PVP contest as the most wins I can get in the arena, with luck, is in the 7-10 range. Others can easily get more than twice that figure. And when it comes to spending money... well, given how much some spend in regular contests for 300 kobans, I dread to think how much they'll be willing to spend for a girl. And there's also the duration of this event, 4 days 4 contests and if you can't end in the top 25 one single day, you're fucked. There's no second chances nor taken into consideration that, for some reason, you won't be able to play for a day. Hell, even missing half of it can ruin your event. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator FinderKeeper Posted June 17, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 17, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Тёмный Властелин said: Girls are one of games resources. Only if you want to start splitting hairs. Girls are prized objectives of this game. 10 minutes ago, Тёмный Властелин said: For girl's XP contest, giving you additional money for Ymens contest and upgrades \ shop items. See how you mention contests describing resource purposes? As for me, I'm not playing this game for contests. They can be used to gain resources - yes, but they shouldn't hard-gate the objectives. Edited June 17, 2020 by FinderKeeper 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Тёмный Властелин Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 25 minutes ago, FinderKeeper said: Only if you want to start splitting hairs. ?? 26 minutes ago, FinderKeeper said: Girls are prized objectives of this game. One doesn't exclude the other. 26 minutes ago, FinderKeeper said: See how you mention contests describing resource purposes? As for me, I'm not playing this game for contests. They can be used to gain resources - yes, but they shouldn't hard-gate the objectives. Ok, if you put it like that, I'm not playing for the contests either. But, you know, if you want to get the girls, you have to get kobans (captain obvious here 😉) and if you want to keep up with the game's pace, you need a lot of them. If you can show me the way to get 7k+ kobans a month I am getting from contests any other way (excluding my wallet, of course) I would very much appreciate that. Until then I'm considering girls as one of the resources that helps me to obtain as much girls as possible in the given circumstances: broken league, broken XP system, broken contests system (just to name a few). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator FinderKeeper Posted June 17, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Тёмный Властелин said: If you can show me the way to get 7k+ kobans a month I am getting from contests any other way I would very much appreciate that. You see, that's the requirement you place on yourself. I'm ok with that. But If you or the game itself places that same requirement on me, I'm not ok with that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanceHardwood Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 The major issue is that this event is moving away from providing equal opportunity to everyone, to a competitive PvP event - a first for the game, especially considering the predominantly solo game play. Previously in the ideal case scenario, 100% of players could obtain the girl, provided they spend the effort and resources. Now, even if all players had equal amounts of resources and everyone spends all of theirs, in the ideal case maximum 86% will get the girl, with the rest having nothing to show for it. What's more - while Legendary Days for example could take several thousand kobans to get a girl, here's there's virtually no limit on the amount spent as players literally outbid each other. In effect this will be an auction-type event, where the highest bidder wins, but the rest aren't getting their bids back. The whole thing seems like an engineered koban sink, maybe to offset the generously provided kobans elsewhere, which players have been piling up slightly more, due to the introduction of orbs. Furthermore the way that the event is described, indicates that girls appearing in such an event will never be a part of a regular Legendary Days event. This raises the question what will revival events of such type look like ? I doubt players will look fondly on an event where they have little to do because they already have the main reward, thus we might not get these girls again at all. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamio Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 I don't like the idea. While I find it ok/easy for me to place 25th every day, as others said I am not ok with the fact that not everyone are given the same chances for a girl, and that is moving drastically away from the mechanic of this game, with regards to obtaining girls. Especially those 5 star legendaries which are the must-haves. I might have a different opinion if those were other normal girls that you could do without. I found out this week as well, that there is only one bracket after lvl 361. I just crossed into this bracket this week, and when RNG is dealing me the wrong cards, it's almost impossible to place well, especially in those donation type of contests, try competing with someone who is 60 levels above you! For now, I'm still managing ok as a very active player. That might not be the case in 6 months'/1 years' time for a new players just reaching this bracket, when the general levels would have gone even higher. So you can imagine how hard it can be to compete in this bracket, if you are placed with a majority of sharks who are 60-100 levels above you. That would be totally unfair and penalise low level 360s. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benefuci Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, jelom said: I will contradict the zero sum game idea with two arguments: 1- This game is not about everybody always winning all girls. In all events, and especially in legendary days there is an important group of players who don't get the girls (or all of them). Players who know the game mechanics and commit his resources will always win more girls and resources than the rest (leaving apart the players who wins their rewards with real money). 2- When the event start, no one has the girl, so how can one "lose" her?. At start there are 0 people with the girl and at the end there are 60% or more players with her. I see an increase in the total of girls owned. In a zero sum game, the total number of girls at the end would be the same as the start, with some players starting without the girl and getting the girl from other players who previously owned her and finished the event without her. P.S.: I laughed with @_shal_'s sharp argument about league winners, but I also have to say that in a competition one don't lose on purpose to leave other player wins. This game also has a competitive side. You don't understand zero-sum games. 1- Zero-sum game or not isn't about "fair", or everybody winning equally. As you point out there is a great variation in what people have won at the end of any event, either because of RNG and/or the resources committed. I don't think anybody has ever complained that the game lets some people win more? We all know paying players can win more or more easily. The fact that players who know the game will win more says absolutely nothing about this new event being zero-sum or not. Your whole argument isn't even about this new event but about the game as a whole? How does that contradict the new event being a zero-sum game event? I'm confused. 2- You are overly focused on the girls as the resource. Think of the odds of getting a girl. Every player starts the event with equal odds. Every player who gets more shards and thus increases his odds to win does so by denying the shards to another player and thus reducing that other player's odds to gain a girl. Classic zero-sum game. If you are fine with playing a zero-sum game, that's ok, you can just say so. Different people like different things. I don't understand what the point is of trying to deny this event is indeed a zero-sum game. PS, it's kinda funny to apply game theory to an actual game! Edited June 18, 2020 by Benefuci PS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baycastle Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 I don't like this idea. Chasing girls have so far not been competitive. Now we are forced to fight each other to get girls? No thanks. This will make the contests more cut throat. Also a big luck factor how the group you are in plays. Sometimes you are in one that has many active players, sometimes it's pretty sleepy. I much more prefer the POA idea. Well, I guess we will see how this plays out, but if it will hinder me in getting the best girls, it will break the game for me. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erin86 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 When does the constest start? Why is it June 18th but it didn't appear to me, or is it only on the test server? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeMTO Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Erin86 said: When does the constest start? Why is it June 18th but it didn't appear to me, or is it only on the test server? Nowhere said it would start on live on the 18th. It starts on live on the 25th according to the test server info 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erin86 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Ok so 18-22th of June is only on test server...thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiel Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 On 6/17/2020 at 1:26 PM, Z-Wave said: Some of you may have tried the new Legendary contest on our test server. I would have if the test server hadn't banned/locked me to 0 points throughout the experimentation time😋 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben9 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Comparisons to leagues in terms of competing against other players for limited prizes is a bit disingenuous. Each league has a finite amount of opponents and a finite amount of ways to spend kobans on increasing your performance. Yes you can spend money to do better, but there is a limit to how much better. Contests though are just a straight up spending contest, and there is no limit to how big an advantage you can get by spending. Sure there is also strategy in sniping and stockpiling resources, but both of these can easily be overcome if you're prepared to spend way more than everyone else. So far the only reason this hasn't been a big problem is the value of the prizes creates a soft limit on the amount its worth spending on them. Imagine if leagues had a feature added where you could pay kobans to fight bots to increase your score. Thats closer to what a real comparison with contests would look like and I suspect everyone would agree how terrible an idea that is. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemus Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 But there is one more thing that (it seems) no one has ever remembered. Formally, the game already has a tool that should to a certain extent smooth out imbalances for this type of event. It's called (tadaaaaaam!!!) - Mystical Pachinko. In theory there you can get a girl from an event that you missed, although more expensive. Except this mechanism does not work normally. It doesn't work because the girls who are there now have appeared in the game at least one and a half years ago or more. This time lag for online games is too big. Yes, people can play for years, but no one will plan for such a period of time like "okay now get 50 shards, and a couple of years later wait for it in a mystical pachinko and get the rest. That's a great plan, damn it, I'll do it!" The second point is that all the girls appear in the pachinko every time with the same chance, and with their number of 300 + rand can be very tough jokes, choosing the same and the same several times, and some on the contrary, generally ignore. Once again, no one will wait for years to put aside significant resources needed to get the girl hoping for the miracle of the randomizer. And it is mystical pachinko could be that emergency valve to reset the negative from this event. Man could have said to himself, "Yes, I really want this girl in the collection, but this time I was unlucky, lacked the resources, time and rivals were too strong. Well, I'll wait a couple of months to accumulate resources and when she appears in the mystical pachinko and then no one can stop me from getting her." But, again, in the current mechanics of the game this is impossible. To sum it up, what would I suggest. 1. To reduce the time between the first appearance of the girl in the game and the subsequent appearance of her in the mystical pachinko. 2. The longer a girl does not appear, the higher her chance of appearing there. 3. No more "exclusive" girls in the events that can no longer be obtained. Yes, such a marketing move creates unhealthy excitement increase the impact of the event, but at the same time cause a terrible "toxicity" especially in games with collection, where the psychology of the game is that the fact of inability to get the desired is perceived as much more painful than the lack of this very "desired". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indeed777 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 I hate this idea. This is primarily a single player idle games. And now we're basically throwing in mandatory PVP? No thank you. I predict that there will be an incredibly amount of complaining when this goes live on the main server. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenni Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Bad idea and for some ppl is the worst I put myself as example, im lvl 372 f2p player and right now most of the people I compete against try to be first even if that means spending kobans or hundreds of millions of Yms To make matters worse, there is almost always one or a few whales ..... at the moment that I write this message, in the contest that is in progress, one of the players that I have to face is one of the biggest whales in the game, Gogeta (if you dont believe this you can see the top of every category in ToF) So what now Kinkoid? you want a bloodbath where the only winners are going to be the ones that are willing to waste money buying the all the kobans necessary to win and the ones that spend every koban saved? ..........sigh 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zteev Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 I'm not on the test server, so I can't comment on whether or not I like it. Technically, this event is NOT a zero-sum event. If you say it is, you get to be wrong. I'm not trying to be harsh, but I am trying to be technical. If this were a zero-sum event, we'd have an amount of gain and loss which is equally offset. This event has no possibility of a loss to x players becoming a gain for another y players which offsets to zero. If one is taking the perspective that getting the girl is the Win condition, and not getting her is the Loss condition, it is not even a constant sum event, from the perspective that we do not have a fixed number of "winners". We do have a minimum number of winners and a theoretical maximum number of winners - where people acquire exactly enough shards to get the girl, and then are 'promoted' out of the leagues with the girls as prizes. I cannot tell you what that maximum is without know how many players we start with. Here are some wiki links, if you are interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game If you want to say that not everyone can get the maximum rewards in this event, that's correct. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urist Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 10 hours ago, Zenni said: you want a bloodbath where the only winners are going to be the ones that are willing to waste money buying the all the kobans necessary to win and the ones that spend every koban saved? Yes, that's exactly what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3132 Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 It is idiotic. I will not spend one second of effort for this dumb contest. It is still not as idiotic as PoA, so they have that going for them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplecane Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 Where is this contest? Can't seem to find it and yes, I've been active Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now