PvP (Leagues) Isn't "Secondary". It's Central and Brokenly Imbalanced! How About a Fix?

[Z-Wave]

14 minutes ago, Observer_X said:

Do you mean that free players (or more in particular, long time free players) shouldn't have the chance to compete with paying players on an equal basis in Dicktator Leagues?

No, I don't mean that at all. With my 4 suggestions, any player will have a good chance to win their respective leagues and once being level 500 (which will even less time for f2p players to achieve compared to now) basically everyone has the same chances and it only comes down to skill. I guess I must have miscommunicated big time if I didn't get that across. Please tell me where you got the idea that I don't want f2p players to be able to compete with paying players once they reached the same level (it only takes longer for f2p like in any collectathon game). Also I totally agree it's not a good idea to involve a strict paywall in the seasons, everything should be obtainable with Kobans. But that's not what this thread is about (at least not directly, let's focus on fixing the league system first).

So in as short as possible. My suggestions are trying to achieve the following and I believe they do (otherwise please correct me):
- Every player, both f2p and paying will be able to get to max level quicker than now
- f2p players will take longer though, paying will enhance your level faster and also allow you to rush all the way through to 500 if you feel like it
- Everyone will have a fair chance of winning their respective league and not being put in a no-win situation by whales or tanks. Skill will be more important than level (but if you have neither, you'll lose of course)
- Once you're at 500, only skill (and to a very small degree Harem level which keeps the whales paying) will get you winning.
- Overall and in the long term whales get matched with only whales and beginners will get only matched with beginners. Unfair advantages are reduced to a minimum.

I hope I could make this clear. If any of you feel like my ideas don't achieve any of these, I kindly ask you to read my suggestions (my very long post from 15h ago) and point me to the mistakes so we can discuss and correct them. 👍

[Kenrae]

9 hours ago, Observer_X said:

Do you mean that free players (or more in particular, long time free players) shouldn't have the chance to compete with paying players on an equal basis in Dicktator Leagues? 

No, he doesn't. That's not what he said.

If paying shortens your time to lvl 500, I'm all for it and don't see a problem with it. My problem would be a pure pay to win mechanism, that's boring.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Kenrae

[blaa]

Since level 500 is unreachable for most players in the near future (within the first half of the next year/next year in total), there isnt much sense to talk about level cap to balance leagues; of course, again, level cap is nice, but it doesnt solve the problem on hand, at least not for the next (few) year(s).

If you dont want to abandon XP as a main deciding factor for being good in leauge, there is another alternative, however she's boring as hell. Just put the 100 top XP player in one league, 101-200 in the next, etc. Then make 30, 40, 50 (whatever) d3 leagues, the same for d2, etc. pp.

Like I said, it's boring as hell, and it still has some injustices (some player cant advance even if they would be better in a higher league, etc.), but at least it would be way more balanced regarding potential strength. (Is it maybe just balanced for the higher level players?)

If you think it's too unfair for players in minor leagues, make this system just for the top 1000 in a 'champion dicktator league' (or however you will name it), and all other players can still demote/promote. You also can make some adjustements like, put top500 in one pool, so that you have at least some variation, etc. You also could give every pool the same rewards, so that there isnt a really need to promote or sandbagging or whatsoever.

Even though, it's my suggestion, it's too boring for me, I would rather prefer a total new PvP system or a fast and achievable way to reach capped level 500.

Edited November 12, 2020 by blaa

[AmberLaTerra]

I have been following this topic for since it was first posted back in June but have held off weighing in while gaining experience in being more competitive of a player as back in June I was just beginning the shift from casual to more hard core.  Now with 5 months playing hard core and working on catching up on how far behind I was from being causal so long I will weigh in with what I see about the issue at hand.

Back when I first started playing hard core obviously I was doing horrible for my level, girls not optimized for the tower, gear not ideal, not using boosters.  I would finish top 45 in s1 simply due to my level, if it was a week I pushed hard maybe move up to s2, but then drop back just due to playing causal and not putting in max battles a week.  Since that time I have moved up strategically stopping in s2 and s3 until I was sure I had the power to move on.   I am now in d1 and depending if I can be online at reset placing top 30, or top 45 if I cannot for the past few weeks.  

The biggest thing holding me back from advancing now is more the RNG aspects of managing to keep best in slot gear for my level and all the boosters I would need to push for trying to rank higher without the cost being greater then the gains for doing so.   As I see it the best fix to the leagues would be to better balance the rewards.  While the top ranks should get better rewards those numbers should not nose dive by to the point where finishing 16-30 is only worth 12% of what finishing first is.  

If the drop off was 20% of the top prize per rank group things would be more balanced in the cost to get a certain rank vs the reward from that rank and though the whales and sharks would still rule the top 4 ranks, at least the smaller fish would not be starving to the point of only being able to make a run at them once every few months due to the cost of failing being greater then the reward for trying. 

 

With this solution using D3 Koban rewards as an example:

The top whale would still get his 14.4k.

The 2nd-4th whales would 11,520.

The 5-15th sharks would get 8,640 enough to invest in runs to try for top 4 regularly.

The smaller fish in 16-30 would still get 5,760 to invest in getting bigger to be better able to run a challenge in the future. 

The 2880 for 31-45 would be incentive to stay in d3.

The ranks that gain Kobans below that could remain the same as if one cannot battle for top 45 they are not ready for d3 yet.

 

A system like this would I believe both encourage more to learn better strategy as they see their rewards grow instead of just seeing massive rewards that are out of reach, and keep rewards worth while enough to make tanking not worth while.

Edit:  Forgot to note I am currently level 324 so on the low end for D leagues, and basing this on what I have learned from both the answers in this topic and what I have learned since becoming more competitive in the game in recent months.

Edited November 13, 2020 by AmberLaTerra

[Z-Wave]

On 11/12/2020 at 9:05 AM, blaa said:

If you dont want to abandon XP as a main deciding factor for being good in leauge, there is another alternative, however she's boring as hell. Just put the 100 top XP player in one league, 101-200 in the next, etc. Then make 30, 40, 50 (whatever) d3 leagues, the same for d2, etc. pp. 

It's a similar idea to mine, yours is straightforward and static and mine is a bit more convoluted and dynamic. The only problem I see with the static solution is that you're getting punished hard when you happen to be at the bottom of that list (when ToF was still there the first top 100 was like 15-20 levels apart when excluding Gogeta) and it will probably lead to one or two people always winning, hence it remains unbalanced and many people will lose.

On 11/12/2020 at 9:05 AM, blaa said:

If you think it's too unfair for players in minor leagues, make this system just for the top 1000 in a 'champion dicktator league' (or however you will name it), and all other players can still demote/promote. You also can make some adjustements like, put top500 in one pool, so that you have at least some variation, etc. You also could give every pool the same rewards, so that there isnt a really need to promote or sandbagging or whatsoever. 

Even though, it's my suggestion, it's too boring for me, I would rather prefer a total new PvP system or a fast and achievable way to reach capped level 500. 

The different pool idea feels much better in comparison, yet there still will be losers who won't have a chance to win no matter what. I guess you're right, as long as PvP is exp-based, any solution is either boring or unfair. A new PvP system might be best, but I doubt KK will put too many resources into reworking it. So your second solution seems to be much more realistic (quick way to level 500) and I totally agree that there should be a way (hence my PoA exp rewards suggestion).
 

On 11/13/2020 at 2:29 PM, AmberLaTerra said:

With this solution using D3 Koban rewards as an example:

The top whale would still get his 14.4k.

The 2nd-4th whales would 11,520.

The 5-15th sharks would get 8,640 enough to invest in runs to try for top 4 regularly.

The smaller fish in 16-30 would still get 5,760 to invest in getting bigger to be better able to run a challenge in the future. 

The 2880 for 31-45 would be incentive to stay in d3.

The ranks that gain Kobans below that could remain the same as if one cannot battle for top 45 they are not ready for d3 yet.

When you have 55 people per league demote from D3 and only 15 promote from D2, there won't be any D3 in a few months anymore... The new drop off system however sounds good to me!
But since you're asking KK to hand out way more Kobans than they already do for free, I think it's unlikely to get implemented. Therefore I suggest let's have the same amount of total Kobans, but distributed in the 20% drop off rates you suggest (but 0 Kobans for #76+). And yes, this means me and my fellow whales will get a lot less Kobans, but let's be honest: We're getting way too much for the privilege of being an early player. Personally I would love to see a more even distribution. The result would look like this:

• 3.474 Kobans for #1
• 2.779 Kobans for #2-4
• 2.223 Kobans for #5-15
• 1.779 Kobans for #16-30
• 1.423 Kobans for #30-45
• 1.138 Kobans for #46-60
• 911 Kobans for #61-75
• 0 Kobans for #76+

So what's your honest opinion on this everybody? Try to look at this idea from both the perspective of player struggling for top 75 as  well as a permanent #1 whale. I think it would be better than the system we have now, although I'll surely miss the privilege Koban flood.

[Kenrae]

5 hours ago, Z-Wave said:

But since you're asking KK to hand out way more Kobans than they already do for free, I think it's unlikely to get implemented. Therefore I suggest let's have the same amount of total Kobans, but distributed in the 20% drop off rates you suggest (but 0 Kobans for #76+). And yes, this means me and my fellow whales will get a lot less Kobans, but let's be honest: We're getting way too much for the privilege of being an early player. Personally I would love to see a more even distribution. The result would look like this:

• 3.474 Kobans for #1
• 2.779 Kobans for #2-4
• 2.223 Kobans for #5-15
• 1.779 Kobans for #16-30
• 1.423 Kobans for #30-45
• 1.138 Kobans for #46-60
• 911 Kobans for #61-75
• 0 Kobans for #76+

So what's your honest opinion on this everybody? Try to look at this idea from both the perspective of player struggling for top 75 as  well as a permanent #1 whale. I think it would be better than the system we have now, although I'll surely miss the privilege Koban flood.

I was going to say something similar. What I've always said is: Decrease the difference between prizes in the same league, increase the difference between prizes from different leagues, so that it doesn't make any sense to demote.

In that sense, prizes should be thought overall, and not only for D3. So, prizes for D3 could very well be higher than you're proposing here, but not more than 11K for top 1 like now, that's clearly too much. The summ of all prizes for all leagues would end up being the same as now. Maybe we only need to rework the three Dicktator leagues, I don't know.

[jelom]

6 hours ago, Z-Wave said:

• 3.474 Kobans for #1
• 2.779 Kobans for #2-4
• 2.223 Kobans for #5-15
• 1.779 Kobans for #16-30
• 1.423 Kobans for #30-45
• 1.138 Kobans for #46-60
• 911 Kobans for #61-75
• 0 Kobans for #76+

I think you have not equalled enough the koban rewards, I propose 1135 kobans for places 1-100.

[Ol Sheriff Joe]

There is one huge weakness in your system, Z, it's that the rewards are so close to each other that i don't see any incentive to work my ass out for juste a few more kobans that what i will get by cruising through my league with the help of the x15 button... (and ending in the 5-15 lot)

Leagues are a competition, and asking for fairness doesn't mean than it should be levelled flat to that point, in my opinion

But, at least, it's less nonsensical than the actual system where the top gunner gets 80% of the cake for himself ^^

[Kenrae]

I was thinking about koban prizes and I came up with this idea. It follows my motto (Decrease the difference between prizes in the same league, increase the difference between prizes from different leagues) but it keeps some more difference between positions so that people don't react like @Ol Sheriff Joe has said. It gives more kobans on Dicktator 3, the same amount on Dicktator 2 and less kobans on Dicktator 1.

Dicktator 3 (135.245 kobans, currently 123.840 kobans):

• 7.100 Kobans for #1
• 4.800 Kobans for #2-4
• 2.880 Kobans for #5-15
• 1.999 Kobans for #16-30
• 1.423 Kobans for #30-45
• 1.138 Kobans for #46-60
• 911 Kobans for #61-75
• 0 Kobans for #76+

Dicktator 2 (99.098 kobans, same as now):

• 5.202 Kobans for #1
• 3.517 Kobans for #2-4
• 2.110 Kobans for #5-15
• 1.465 Kobans for #16-30
• 1.043 Kobans for #30-45
• 834 Kobans for #46-60
• 667 Kobans for #61-75
• 0 Kobans for #76+

Dicktator 1 (54.509 kobans, currently 66.102 kobans):

• 2.861 Kobans for #1
• 1.934 Kobans for #2-4
• 1.161 Kobans for #5-15
• 806 Kobans for #16-30
• 573 Kobans for #30-45
• 459 Kobans for #46-60
• 367 Kobans for #61-75
• 0 Kobans for #76+

 

1. The total kobans given are roughly the same, so it shouldn't be a business problem from KK point of view. I'd even say more people would return to Gold or Platinum cards this way, because no one would get huge amounts, but that's to be seen.
2. On D3 it's still worth going for a win or top4. Also, ending on top15 still means you're not going to lose kobans by being constantly boosted (it's exactly the same than now), so trying and ending 5th won't hurt you that bad that you're not going to go for it for that reason.
3. Ending 30-45 on D3 is comparable to ending 16-30 on D2 (and that's without taking into account the XP gained and the other prizes, that are much better on D3). I think that would help with people keeping themselves on D2 for months.
4. Being 16-30 on D3 every week is better than being 1st on D2 every two weeks. Being 31-45 in D3 every week is better than being 2-4 on D2 every two weeks. I'd say that's no more demoting/promoting, at least not for the kobans.
5. Similar things can be said comparing D2 to D1.

 

I don't know if the rest of the leagues need to be changed, I'd say that active people already leave them behind as they are now, so my guess is that there's no need.

[AmberLaTerra]

On 11/16/2020 at 4:26 AM, Z-Wave said:

When you have 55 people per league demote from D3 and only 15 promote from D2, there won't be any D3 in a few months anymore... The new drop off system however sounds good to me!

But since you're asking KK to hand out way more Kobans than they already do for free, I think it's unlikely to get implemented. Therefore I suggest let's have the same amount of total Kobans, but distributed in the 20% drop off rates you suggest (but 0 Kobans for #76+). And yes, this means me and my fellow whales will get a lot less Kobans, but let's be honest: We're getting way too much for the privilege of being an early player. Personally I would love to see a more even distribution. The result would look like this:

• 3.474 Kobans for #1
• 2.779 Kobans for #2-4
• 2.223 Kobans for #5-15
• 1.779 Kobans for #16-30
• 1.423 Kobans for #30-45
• 1.138 Kobans for #46-60
• 911 Kobans for #61-75
• 0 Kobans for #76+

So what's your honest opinion on this everybody? Try to look at this idea from both the perspective of player struggling for top 75 as  well as a permanent #1 whale. I think it would be better than the system we have now, although I'll surely miss the privilege Koban flood.

I like your numbers.   Honestly since none of us have any idea how the numbers would change if there was a change made by KK the most simple way to display it was based on current reward levels for my point.   I am glad someone did the math on using the same total given out now to show a breakdown of how it would work in a more fair system without changing the total number given out. 

[Z-Wave]

36 minutes ago, AmberLaTerra said:

I like your numbers.

Thanks, but I think @Kenrae did an awesome job with his calculations (which I can confirm are correct). I prefer his system because it makes winning each league motivational enough (and still more reasonable than the current D3 #1 madness). It will also make it more rewarding to get promoted into a higher league while punishing to those who tank. I really love it, if KK could combine this with an unlocked exp system (like exp rewards for PoA) and therefore allow rushing to level 500 for everyone, they would do a great service to the player base and leagues would be much better (while not yet perfectly balanced).The beauty of this is that it's probably a very simple change to make with relatively huge  consequences!

@Noacc maybe you could kindly forward Kenrae's numbers to KK?

[Ol Sheriff Joe]

I have to say @Kenrae did an amazing job managing to straighten about everything that is flawed and had been reported as such in the actual reward system. 

[_shal_]

8 hours ago, Kenrae said:

I don't know if the rest of the leagues need to be changed, I'd say that active people already leave them behind as they are now, so my guess is that there's no need.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure people have reported level 400+ players vulturing league wins as low as Sexpert 2.

[windia]

8 hours ago, Kenrae said:

I was thinking about koban prizes and I came up with this idea. It follows my motto (Decrease the difference between prizes in the same league, increase the difference between prizes from different leagues) but it keeps some more difference between positions so that people don't react like @Ol Sheriff Joe has said. It gives more kobans on Dicktator 3, the same amount on Dicktator 2 and less kobans on Dicktator 1.

Dicktator 3 (135.245 kobans, currently 123.840 kobans):

• 7.100 Kobans for #1
• 4.800 Kobans for #2-4
• 2.880 Kobans for #5-15
• 1.999 Kobans for #16-30
• 1.423 Kobans for #30-45
• [...]

Dicktator 2 (99.098 kobans, same as now):

• 5.202 Kobans for #1
• 3.517 Kobans for #2-4
• 2.110 Kobans for #5-15
• [...]

Dicktator 1 (54.509 kobans, currently 66.102 kobans):

• 2.861 Kobans for #1
• 1.934 Kobans for #2-4
• 1.161 Kobans for #5-15
• [...]

 

1. [...]
2. Being 16-30 on D3 every week is better than being 1st on D2 every two weeks. Being 31-45 in D3 every week is better than being 2-4 on D2 every two weeks. I'd say that's no more demoting/promoting, at least not for the kobans.
3. Similar things can be said comparing D2 to D1. [...]

Thanks for the draft. I mainly like the idea that the 1st place would no longer get more than the double value of 2nd-4th and so on.

Which currently makes a "the winner takes all".

 

I just fail to compute "5202 kobans each 2 weeks is less than 1999 kobans every week" = "1st D2 every 2 weeks is less than 16-30 each week D3"

As 5202 is more than 1999*2 = 3998 kobans by 1200 kobans. 

And 2nd-4th = 3517 kobans vs 31st-45th = 1423*2=2846 kobans, difference only 700 kobans.

As I would need boosters only every other week.

[Kenrae]

26 minutes ago, windia said:

I just fail to compute "5202 kobans each 2 weeks is less than 1999 kobans every week" = "1st D2 every 2 weeks is less than 16-30 each week D3"

As 5202 is more than 1999*2 = 3998 kobans by 1200 kobans. 

And 2nd-4th = 3517 kobans vs 31st-45th = 1423*2=2846 kobans, difference only 700 kobans.

As I would need boosters only every other week.

You're right, I guess my eyes moved to the wrong row when comparing .

Don't forget the rest of the prizes though. The orbs are good to have, the XP is important and will be important until you reach the cap, and the combativity is very nice too.

I'm sure some people would still demote, even if it's for other reasons, like the time it takes to play when you compete or to prepare for LC or PoA. But it would be a fraction of the current situation.

[windia]

7 minutes ago, Kenrae said:

You're right, I guess my eyes moved to the wrong row when comparing .

Don't forget the rest of the prizes though. The orbs are good to have, the XP is important and will be important until you reach the cap, and the combativity is very nice too.

I'm sure some people would still demote, even if it's for other reasons, like the time it takes to play when you compete or to prepare for LC or PoA. But it would be a fraction of the current situation.

Things happen. 

Did you imply to remove the orbs at all or leave them untouched? Because at the moment only 1st-15th get orbs and a 1st in D2 is 6 orbs as well as 2 times a 5-15th in D3.

And yes, there are more factors for each individual player situation - which is true for the entire game. 

As here we talk about league imbalance only.

[Kenrae]

1 hour ago, windia said:

Things happen. 

Did you imply to remove the orbs at all or leave them untouched? Because at the moment only 1st-15th get orbs and a 1st in D2 is 6 orbs as well as 2 times a 5-15th in D3.

And yes, there are more factors for each individual player situation - which is true for the entire game. 

As here we talk about league imbalance only.

I didn't think much about the orbs to be fair, I wouldn't change them to start I guess and see how things unfold.

[Pornomancer]

On 11/16/2020 at 4:26 AM, Z-Wave said:

The result would look like this:

• 3.474 Kobans for #1
• 2.779 Kobans for #2-4
• 2.223 Kobans for #5-15
• 1.779 Kobans for #16-30
• 1.423 Kobans for #30-45
• 1.138 Kobans for #46-60
• 911 Kobans for #61-75
• 0 Kobans for #76+

So what's your honest opinion on this everybody? Try to look at this idea from both the perspective of player struggling for top 75 as  well as a permanent #1 whale. I think it would be better than the system we have now, although I'll surely miss the privilege Koban flood.

Pretty excellent I must admit. I'm glad that the course of the discussion has shifted because while I do think @DvDivXXX is 100% correct, I really do think that the reward system is insanely broken and perhaps the easiest way to fix this issue on a shorter-term basis. The bottom prize for D3 isn't even two days worth of mission kobans (discounting events). The top prize is 96 days worth. That's insanity. 288 should be the bottom prize for W1, but that's just my lame opinion.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Pornomancer

[Cantrix]

I just want my casual collectible game that i used to enjoy and relax with. The stress in my life is enough without worrying wether i would be able to fuck tons of people and get the girl/kobans.