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6 hours ago, Kenrae said:

So now we have different forks of the script? What's this? Linux distros? :P.

Shifting over here. There's been multiple forks of it running around since before it got posted to the forum. Everyone time someone new picks it up, it's technically a fork. Often the fork was made because someone else stopped maintaining it, other times it's been because someone felt a previous maintainer was doing a bad job with certain features.

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Okay.

I'm a bit "confused" because for the longest time (during @_shal_'s tenure as the maintainer mostly), it seemed that there was a shortage of coding-savvy players willing to work on the one version of the script most of us used. So it's kind of amusing to think that there have been and there currently are multiple groups each working on their own separate version of the script (instead of joining forces to make one even better script to rule them all).

The version @Noacc recently reviewed and vetted along with the whole Kinkoid team (further to incorrect assumptions and rumors of "automation" spread about it by a few players) and is now explicitly allowed by Kinkoid is the one currently maintained by @Tom208, though.
(This one: // @author  Raphael, 1121, Sluimerstand, shal, Tom208, test_anon)

It's also from this version (and a few other lines of code) that the devs more or less directly lifted some QoL improvements from, mostly the ones introduced since Tom took over from Shal, and added them to the game proper (like the Team selection feature inspired by the once unfairly infamous Team Filter script, or the slight reduction of the merchants' picture size to prevent a bug that made the entire Market page unusable with some screen resolutions).

@45026831 Can I ask where your version started in the script's history? (or your "fork"—I'll confess, I had never encountered this term used in this context before George used it; my first impression was that he was using "fork" like they do in The Good Place  as in "mother forking bull shirt" and all that ^^).

I'm also curious (besides the one extra shown and explained in the Leagues thread) as to how it differs from the aforementioned approved and maintained version. For science (eg out of curiosity), I wouldn't mind giving it a try. Was it posted on Discord only?

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20 minutes ago, DvDivXXX said:

The version @Noacc recently reviewed and vetted along with the whole Kinkoid team (further to incorrect assumptions and rumors of "automation" spread about it by a few players) and is now explicitly allowed by Kinkoid is the one currently maintained by @Tom208, though.
(This one: // @author Raphael, 1121, Sluimerstand, shal, Tom208, test_anon)

Which then lost authorisation the next update that was pushed through. Which is always the case because Kinkoid aren't going to review all updates. They can't give a blanket "yeah everything this script does going forward is fine" because they can't predict the future, they simply confirmed that the current code wasn't problematic.

22 minutes ago, DvDivXXX said:

(or your "fork"—I'll confess, I had never encountered this term used in this context before George used it; my first impression was that he was using "fork" like they do in The Good Place as in "mother forking bull shirt" and all that ^^).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_(software_development)

Literally everytime a new author gets added, the script is forked. They haven't asked for permission (which is completely fair on Open Source code), but branched off to make their own additions to it. Raphael had left the game, 1121 revived it, Sluimerstand couldn't stand how ugly the features 1121 was throwing around the screen looked and thus started realigning them (hence why it had OCD in its name previously, it bothered him that much), Sluimerstand then quit the game, so shal shared every minor tweak he did whenever Kinkoid changed their code and thus broke something that he cared about. Those things I only know because 1121, Sluim and shal all used discord.

 

31 minutes ago, DvDivXXX said:

@45026831 Can I ask where your version started in the script's history? (or your "fork"—I'll confess, I had never encountered this term used in this context before George used it; my first impression was that he was using "fork" like they do in The Good Place as in "mother forking bull shirt" and all that ^^).

I'm also curious (besides the one extra shown and explained in the Leagues thread) as to how it differs from the aforementioned approved and maintained version. For science (eg out of curiosity), I wouldn't mind giving it a try. Was it posted on Discord only?

Right when we had that problematic issue of the legality of the filters. Numbers (as we joking called him on Discord due to not really being able to remember the sequence when he wasn't around which he then took as his name there) is a discord moderator, so stripped out the filters, threw it up and told people to just use this for now if they were concerned. I'll let him explain his own motivations for continuing/script differences if he feels like it though, as I can't figure out a way to word it that doesn't colour it with my (personal) very low opinion of Tom208.

It's posted on his github, but here's a direct link to it: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/45026831/hh-plus-plus/main/hh-plus-plus.js

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Good to know, thanks. All people involved prior to Shal were gone long before my time, and I always assumed the "OCD" tag came from him. ^^

And sure, I'd like to know Numbers' story from him too if he wants to tell.

Thanks for being honest and staying neutral on this. I'm not interested in restarting the personal feuds and drama behind the scenes either. Just curious about the different forks themselves. (There has to be a pun to be made with "different strokes for different folks", here, but I don't have enough caffeine in me for that yet ^^).

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As George mentioned, my fork started as a quick holdover when Noacc declared the filters to be automation. Once Noacc backtracked on that decision, my fork was essentially a mirror of Tom's while I tried to get Kinkoid to make some sort of decision on how to handle feature approvals going forward so such a thing wouldn't happen again. A decision never happened, so I've just resigned myself to running big new things past Noacc instead as they're going to be added.

My version only started diverging from Tom's when he added the feature to force the player onto the old PoA screen without any player choice; I added a config option before merging. At that point, I figured "in for a penny, in for a pound", and started making changes to things that bothered me in the script.

At this point, it's diverged a significant amount. The battle simulator has been replaced with a probabilistic one, the league info module has been rewritten to remove a ton of repeated code and use of icons in violation of their licences, among other changes. And thanks to using github for it, collaboration is nice and easy.

I keep an eye on Tom's version for things that look worth merging, but very often I find myself modifying those changes slightly to improve them or make them user-configurable.

I've also got a list of things I still want to change here: https://github.com/45026831/hh-plus-plus/issues

Also worth noting that prior to forking HH++, I was also working on a separate script called Style Tweaks (https://github.com/45026831/hh-style-tweaks), which is for purely cosmetic things. You'll have seen people using it to have the compact league table in the league screenshots thread.

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Thanks for your reply. I get the gist of how you gradually went from a quick edit to remove one thing in a specific context, to eventually changing more and more things to make a version you prefer. That's cool.

Obviously, taste and personal preferences are involved, but it's nice that those who tend more towards yours have an extra option. I much prefer Tom's myself, and will stick to it (the fact that I'm in touch with him and Test and can easily give them direct feedback, suggestions and stuff plays a role too). To each their own.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm not interested in restarting any controversy or personal feuds. We clearly experienced the context during which you started your fork very differently (your recollection is closer to George's than my own) and there are also probably key elements one of us isn't aware of but the other is, and vice versa. It might have to do with you and I not being in contact at all back then, and having different communication channels as disco mod and forum mod respectively.

I'll just add a few missing pieces that I feel are crucial to understand the overall narrative.

5 hours ago, 45026831 said:

when Noacc declared the filters to be automation. Once Noacc backtracked on that decision, my fork was essentially a mirror of Tom's

This summary on its own is misleading. I believe you that Noacc said something along those lines on the Discord group at the time when the topic was hot there, but it was never his decision, and he had no actual knowledge of what the filters did at that point, he only knew that some players were making that claim. A claim that proved to be unfounded later on.

What happened isn't so much that Noacc backtracked, but that he took the time to listen to players who were better informed and/or able to explain the feature better (notably yours truly). After that, he checked the new features and had a look at the entire script as maintained by Tom while he was at it, and he confirmed that there was strictly nothing against the ToS in there. However, since there was such a big fuss around this false claim of automation, he chose to discuss it further with the whole team before officially confirming that Tom's version was kosher. Which they eventually confirmed, to nobody's surprise.

5 hours ago, 45026831 said:

I tried to get Kinkoid to make some sort of decision on how to handle feature approvals going forward so such a thing wouldn't happen again. A decision never happened, so I've just resigned myself to running big new things past Noacc instead as they're going to be added.

That's interesting, and it reinforces my gut feeling that there are some missed opportunities to work together rather than each on their own, there. Around the same time frame, I was also having similar discussions with Noacc on behalf of Tom. And what you describe pretty much also mirrors what Tom, Test and/or myself have been doing for some later updates. Which, given that what you run by Noacc is often a rework of what we also run by him... seems like a lot of extra work for everyone involved (but mostly poor Noacc ^^).

5 hours ago, 45026831 said:

My version only started diverging from Tom's when he added the feature to force the player onto the old PoA screen without any player choice; I added a config option before merging.

That's unfortunate, because it seems like you did some extra work for this too and, more importantly, a misunderstanding seems to have been the deciding factor for you to really start diverging from Tom's version. The old PoA interface was added (by popular demand; many of us strongly prefer it to the new one) as an option. There's a simple ON/OFF switch for it in the in-game script menu: "Old PoA window". AFAI it was there from day one (maybe day two?) of this addition. ^^

Anyways, the more the merrier and to each their own.

6 hours ago, GeorgeMTO said:

They can't give a blanket "yeah everything this script does going forward is fine" because they can't predict the future, they simply confirmed that the current code wasn't problematic.

Obviously, but it's not like each update retroactively taints the rest of the script, either. Having said "I love every Metallica album" back in 1988 wasn't a commitment to love every future album by them as well (thankfully! ^^). At the same time, the fact that I think the band has been releasing garbage for 3 decades  now doesn't retroactively make me reject their 80s albums. So, since they've approved all of the script as it was just a few months ago, we're pretty far from being back in the wild wild west just yet in that regard. ^^

In any case, great talk guys, and long live the script (whichever forking variant one prefers). 👍

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44 minutes ago, DvDivXXX said:

The old PoA interface was added (by popular demand; many of us strongly prefer it to the new one) as an option. There's a simple ON/OFF switch for it in the in-game script menu: "Old PoA window". AFAI it was there from day one (maybe day two?) of this addition. ^^

"Popular" (for a subset of a subset of users) demand for reduced functionality in exchange for better visuals is hardly a ringing endorsement, which I find especially surprising from you considering your complaints about various Kinkoid features. It was added without the option. Hard to remember how long it took to be fixed, but it took too long (and also caused various confused comments on discord).

48 minutes ago, DvDivXXX said:

Obviously, but it's not like each update retroactively taints the rest of the script, either.

I think you missed my point there though. You were (in innocent ignorance I'm sure) claiming that only Tom208 maintained a verified script. The unchanged code is fine, but new feature that hasn't been approved (I was unaware he was running code by Noacc, I feel that makes the updates that break things even more poor though if he'd had the time to get them checked by Noacc, but didn't confirm his code works).

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3 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

There's a simple ON/OFF switch for it in the in-game script menu: "Old PoA window". AFAI it was there from day one (maybe day two?) of this addition. ^^

I won't belabour the point too much, but the history is visible. The feature was added July 28th, the config setting was added August 1st. And to be clear this wasn't the only reason for the divergence, nor where it started to diverge heavily, just the point at which it stopped being a verbatim mirror.

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I have used @Tom208 branch and @45026831 branch. Both are very helpful scripts. I think it is just a matter of taste and preferences. The most important point is that they both selflessly work to improve the gaming experience for the community. Keeping up with KK features is no easy task and they even do it in a timely manner. I greatly appreciate them. Much respect.

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1 hour ago, Methos2 said:

They should move releases to Thursday permanently and stop disrupting leagues.

I don't know about that. When a big patch comes out, there's a lot digest and it can take some getting used to. League reset is already a busy time for many of us, and having game changes to digest on the fly on top of it could be a bit much, especially when real life doesn't allow to take a couple of hours to evaluate the changes, their impact, and rethink your strategy for the new league. It would make Thursday THE big day.

Patches coming out 24 hours before the end of the league isn't as disruptive as people often claim. In most situations, the bulk of that league is done, so even if there's a big change it can only impact so much. It also gives enough time to prepare for the next league with the changes in mind, instead of having to hit the ground running before you even know what you're walking into.

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