lasergun Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Club champion change is awful and the patch notes prove just how tone-deaf this change is. Players were not "hoarding" shards, they were carrying their clubs on their backs. If you do more work than others, you deserve a bigger reward, period. All you've done is remove any incentive for anyone to do all the work. My club is not very large or active. It takes us about 5 days to beat the champion, because only a few members put in more than a handful of fights. We're now only going to get 3 shards for winning, which means it would take us over a year to actually unlock the girl. So now we've gone from a system where a select few (the ones who cared enough to actually participate in it) saw the benefits, to a system where nobody sees the benefits. The numbers could be double what they are and it still wouldn't be enough, at least for clubs of my size. 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Cocks Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Well another CC shard distribution change. Only thing that comes to mind about this change is WTF, do they play the game, are they in a club etc?...... Currently 36 participants in our club, 5 shards for all. No upside, no downside. No (individual) incentive to participate more than 1 ticket. Freeriding/parasiting is the "optimal" playstyle. Really? Probably makes it more difficult/near impossible for newer members of our club to catch up on the older girls. And our club is steady and working together in a great and collective way. Have read some things about smaller clubs. For them this change is even worse. 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natstar Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 If they had nerfed the club champ for hardcore/charm it would not be as bad takes a lot more hits beating them than the know how champ also its a bad to test out the new club champ system when we don't have a new club champ girl since less people hitting the club champ as well. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator bolitho76 Posted February 2, 2022 Moderator Share Posted February 2, 2022 After a litle bit more data to the new ClubChamp-System I have to recognice that I was to optimistic how the new system is balanced (can we use this word in this context? 🤔) With only 5 shards when the whole Club participate and the amount of hitpoints the Champs have it's a disaster. We are 38 members in our Club from level 160 to 491, Chad is level 233 with ca. 560 Million hitpoints - not beatable in a short time. With 10 shards if all Clubmembers participate (one shard for 10% of the Clubmember) it could be that you can collect enough shards from the Champ. After the price nerf the amount of Yumen you get from batteling the ClubChamp is an good argument to spend tickets on him but it seems there are players who doesn't accept this as enough. A solution could be that they give some extra gifts for reaching percentage steps for the heavy hitters. For example: everyone who make more than 1% damage get a common gift, 5% a rare, 10% an epic and 20%/40%/60% and so on get for every step a Legendary. Keep in mind that they want to improve the teamwork and avoid that someone beat the champ alone and after he had the girl leave the others to their fate. On the other hand they could nerf the hitpoints of the ClubChampf to 1/2 and nerf the growth of hitpoints too. I see one great problem at the moment and no really good solution: Theres no chance to avoid parasiting in the System. In the old system one can be a parasite (equal if he want this or not) if he made the most amount of damage against the Champ and other players can't get shards because they are not able to make damage nearly the few heavy hitter and the heavy hitters are needed in every round to beat the Champ, in the new system is parasiting that some potential heavy hitter do only one attack and after this do nothing more against the champ and will rewarded like the other who struggle to beat the Champ. My suggestion with the gifts is a try to reduce this problem, but it's surely not the best possibility. The suggested solution with the shards basing on spended tickets has other problems. This system fits mostly in Clubs with nearly the same level and mostly the same ticket income, for my Club the income of tickets is to different. 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator DvDivXXX Posted February 3, 2022 Moderator Share Posted February 3, 2022 To be fair, if everyone and their cousin are spending just one ticket and waiting for others to do all the work, then each run might take days, if not forever... ^^ But yeah, it essentially turned the main issue with poor cooperation upside down. Many organized clubs used to set a maximum amount of damage for each participant, now they might have to set a minimum amount of damage instead. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasergun Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 3 hours ago, DvDivXXX said: To be fair, if everyone and their cousin are spending just one ticket and waiting for others to do all the work, then each run might take days, if not forever... ^^ Unfortunately that's the situation we find ourselves in now. If I'm now getting 1/3 of the reward for the same amount of work as before, the incentive for me to do the work at all is more or less gone. It's just not worth the time to bother anymore. Will the club members who were less active before this change step up to pull their share of the weight? Of course not. Because the issue with champions wasn't that some players are too weak, or that they don't have enough tickets, or that some players were taking all the shards. It was simply that it's too tedious. The average player (in my club that's about 90% of the members) is unwilling to be constantly logged in to put in 2-3 fights every hour, and nobody wants to spend kobans on it over, say, MD or PoA. 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustVisitingReborn Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 2 hours ago, lasergun said: The average player (in my club that's about 90% of the members) is unwilling to be constantly logged in to put in 2-3 fights every hour, and nobody wants to spend kobans on it over, say, MD or PoA. And that's exactly where I'm at. I'm 100% f2p, so no avoiding the 15min cooldown for me. Last month I still managed to get Stellaluna. It was tedious, but worth the effort. There will only be another 2-4 players in my club that managed to get her last month and they're working on passes (you can tell as the number of challenges jump rather than steadily increase). Where is the incentive for me to put that extra time in, checking every 15min to challenge again? It's not there. I'm all for socialism in so far as I think we can all pitch in for a better world. But this system totally ignores reality and basic human behaviour. With the current reward system there's simply nothing in it for me to invest all this additional time. As to Ymen as a potential reason to do this - log in once every couple of hours and claim your harem cash. Chances are it's going to be around the same amount of Ymen that the CC deliver and doesn't involve either spending tickets of checking every 15min. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rylarth Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) This is by no means a improvement now I am guaranteed 3-4 shards each defeat so now we will need at least 20 defeats a month which is close to impossible since the Club Champion levels to infinity everyone with common sense would understand there is a difference between something being challenging and being set on a difficulty where you get destroyed beyond oblivion the Club champion could be greatly improved with a full reset of the tiers every Month or they can just continue with the CC being stronger and almost a immortal god eventually 🤔 Edited February 3, 2022 by Rylarth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Community Manager Noacc Posted February 3, 2022 Author Community Manager Share Posted February 3, 2022 21 hours ago, cxxtkiller said: Everyone who has spent should initiate a charge back request with cc company. My purchases were based on present game mechanics that rewarded my style of play so i could expand my roster-not this bullshit that negates everything. Maybe then kinkoid would listen Insta banned. I'm gathering feedback on Club Champions. I'll start off with an explanation why Call to action is forbidden and why harming the company will get you permabanned (Pretty self-explanatory, right?) and it can get way worse, believe me, you don't wanna go there. In case of charge fraud the account is insta banned with almost no chance of appeal. (That is the good part) I'll leave this comment as an example. You are no longer welcome in the community. At least for a bit. Second, I've gather feedback and provided the specific issues for the Club Champions to game design. Second edit, with one more person that I've missed from all the commotion. 1 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoopokemon Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 19 minutes ago, Noacc said: I'm gathering feedback on Club Champions I do hope you listen this time, me giving feedback on Club Champions is why we have this new version, despite my best efforts for providing a balanced solution. You can find what I said to Rosso about the last CC formula and how it should have been improved here: Club Champion Feedback. But my solution was totally ignored and now it's so much worse... 4 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Community Manager Noacc Posted February 3, 2022 Author Community Manager Share Posted February 3, 2022 zoo, I'll take a look, thanks. 9 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotaku Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 Thank you Noacc. We appreciate it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kojot Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Noacc said: In case of charge fraud the account is insta banned with almost no chance of appeal. (That is the good part) I'll leave this comment as an example. It sounds so powerful that even I got scared, and I didn't do anything 🤣 My opinion on the changes: before the update I would get around 7 shards, now it's 2. And I didn't change anything in my playstyle, neither did my clubmates. So I don't like these changes. No improvment at all in this aspect. 5 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Discgear Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 5 hours ago, Noacc said: I'll start off with an explanation why Call to action is forbidden and why harming the company will get you permabanned (Pretty self-explanatory, right?) and it can get way worse, believe me, you don't wanna go there. I'm from the States and that is considered a challenge. Also any online form of 'call to action' are empty threats. I mean they're competing with cat videos for Pete's sake. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Community Manager Noacc Posted February 3, 2022 Author Community Manager Share Posted February 3, 2022 @Discgear Tomorrow I'll create a topic on why threatening with a chargeback and making a chargeback on a product you have used is considered a fraud. Which may lead to lawsuits and believe me no-one wants that. Don't try to take piss with this and don't try be smart about it by comparing with empty threats or Cat Videos. I'll also take this personally so do not provoke me. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incubys Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 Whilst I don't condone fraudulent charge backs, I can understand peoples frustrations. I've felt frustrated about previous changes and had considered cancelling my Patroen contributions (haven't so far as still mostly enjoying the game). From the reactions I've read there doesn't seem to have been any forewarning, or trial on test server ? I mean isn't that what the test server is for, to see how things will work and gain feedback ? If you didn't want to announce it on the test server, maybe you could have had a quiet word with the Mods about the change. I know they work hard on the forums and have RL to contend with, but I'm sure with their experience in the game they would have realised the issues this would raise. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methos2 Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 18 hours ago, Noacc said: I'm gathering feedback on Club Champions. The systems we had before rely on higher level members to carry the matches. Even so lower level members with their best effort would still end up with measly amount of shards. Eventually, the lower level members gave up and participation dropped. This made finishing the matches harder and the reward getting smaller. The new system now ignores contribution completely. Sure, lower level players can get more than 1 shard but who wants to spend hundreds of tickets to carry the club on every match?! I think the shard reward formula should comprise of 4 variables: number of participants, impression percentage, number of challenges, and player level. Number of participants ensures active participation of all members. Impression percentage motivates the members (especially higher level one) to finish quicker. The number of challenges will give lower level members chance of better shard range. This variable needs to depend on the player level so that higher level players can't dominate the match. CC also needs a way to decrease the champion tier or to remove tier completely. Champion level starts with club average. After each match, level goes up by 1. After 10 wins, it goes up a tier and 10 more levels. Right now, champions level would only go up. Eventually, not even the hard hitters can finish the match. I don't really see a reason to make champion harder over time. Members in clubs change all the time. If a club have bunches of high level players joined and drove up the champion levels then left. Why should the newer members suffer for action that they didn't contribute?! My recommendation is to remove the level change. If not, there must be a easy and reasonable way to drop in levels. I don't remember when it happened. Some time ago, CC and sex champions got significantly harder to beat. This should be reverted. It is de-motivational to fight champions especially hardcore and charm. My sex champion is in level 20 range. It takes so many tickets to finish a match and it will only get harder after each win so why should I bother fighting champions any more. When players spent a 100 tickets and still got 1 shard, why would they do it again. This one is no longer applied with the new system but I want to point it out for any new changes. The shard ranges shown to the players during the matches were based on the champion current impression, not total impression. So the values would go up and down. This gives a false impression to some players that CC is a competition among clubmates because their number went down when others did more challenges. This often led to rushing and other selfish behaviors. If the number shown is based on the total impression, it would not go down because it is a guaranteed shard number even when the player stops fighting for the rest of the match. So players would only see their shard range stay or go up. This will foster the impression that CC is a cooperative feature and lead to better participation. I hope this helps my 2 cents 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Ravi-Sama Posted February 4, 2022 Moderator Share Posted February 4, 2022 After this CC change, I'm locked at a potential of just 5 shards, after doing 19% damage w/ 82 tickets, & 30/35 of my club members participating. In the past, this would yield up to 16 shards. It's been 2 days already, and we're just at 70% total damage. That means I did about 1/3 of the damage on my own, and I'll just get 5 shards. It says that if more players participate, even if it's negative damage, they'll get shards, and everyone's rewards should increase. I told the remaining 5 players that didn't fight at least once yet, to attack, to see if the reward increases. My club "Jaegerists" has 17 players above level 350, and 18 between level 140-240. Only half of the club is able to deal any real damage, so about 8/30 players just used 1 ticket. In the past, this would be acceptable. Those that are able, and have the patience or kobans, would still be motivated to finish the boss, and lower level players would still get shards. Now, where's the motivation for anyone? I've told the club that the participation limit is 20%, to not to exceed that, to avoid being greedy. If I noticed a player was repeatedly hogging the CC to themselves, I'd warn them, and kick them if they did it again. Now, there's almost no reason to play CC at all, you can't get the girl within a month, if you get about 5 shards every 3 days, and that isn't even a guarantee. Unlike last month, where I was able to recruit Stellaluna, by doing an average of 16% damage, w/ ~46 tickets each time, 10 times (460 tickets), over a period of 3 weeks (19 days). You took a system that was flawed, but functional, and broke it, in an effort to make it more fair, removing all incentive from the players that made it function at all. 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaa Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 6 hours ago, Incubys said: Whilst I don't condone fraudulent charge backs, I can understand peoples frustrations. I've felt frustrated about previous changes and had considered cancelling my Patroen contributions (haven't so far as still mostly enjoying the game). From the reactions I've read there doesn't seem to have been any forewarning, or trial on test server ? I mean isn't that what the test server is for, to see how things will work and gain feedback ? If you didn't want to announce it on the test server, maybe you could have had a quiet word with the Mods about the change. I know they work hard on the forums and have RL to contend with, but I'm sure with their experience in the game they would have realised the issues this would raise. I was supporting KK via patreon for a while too. Even though i dont like season pass only obtainable with real money, it's a good deal and i really felt it was fair to give something back. I cancelled my support in summer. The reasons are obvious, when you read some of my posts the last year. I dont mind paying some euros every month for a good game, even though i never needed the kobans cause KK was very generous in the past (one of the reasons i enjoyed the game). Why I am quoting you has another reason though: As far as I can tell, it was live on TS (like 2 days?), but nobody (really) noticed. There are clubs and people even fight CC, but nobody really cares a lot about that. It wouldnt be a lot of effort to inform TS-players what's new when they patch TS, but, again, i dont expect KK improving in transparency and communication (we said it so many times, but nothing happened). That isnt noaccs fault, IMO. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaftiel Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 The saddest part to me is that I and a couple other heavy-hitters in my club would be happy to spend many hundreds of tickets each and carry the rest of our club. "Giving out" girls to the lower-level members would be great. But as a FtP player it's SOOOO boring and time consuming, and at 4-5 shards/win grossly inefficient, and our Chad has scaled so high it's going to take days just to beat him once... not going to happen. Such a missed opportunity. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bohammettuz Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 55 minutes ago, Shaftiel said: The saddest part to me is that I and a couple other heavy-hitters in my club would be happy to spend many hundreds of tickets each and carry the rest of our club. "Giving out" girls to the lower-level members would be great. But as a FtP player it's SOOOO boring and time consuming, and at 4-5 shards/win grossly inefficient, and our Chad has scaled so high it's going to take days just to beat him once... not going to happen. Such a missed opportunity. I would like to second Shaftiels point about the time investment required for FtP players for champions. It is a huge impact on our real-life activities to have to interrupt whatever we’re doing every 15 minutes to throw another ticket at the champ. If there was a way to bank a number of attempts, like seasons or almost any other activity in the game, and spend them in a burst, that would make participating in champions a lot more attractive to a very large number of players. And a second point I would like to suggest is to look at the rewards for players who already have the CC girl. These are generally the stronger players who would carry a large part of the CC effort for the club. But for a long time now they’ve had the same problem that is now being discussed for shards: there is no increased reward for increased effort. 1 ticket has the same reward as 100. Introducing some scaling of the non-shard rewards would improve motivation and participation for these players. It has been quite visible in my club. When there is a new girl, at the start of the month the CC is finished within 1 or 2 days. At the end of the month, when most of the strong players have obtained the girl, it takes over 5 days. The strong players are still participating and pushing to help the rest of the club, but the motivation is much reduced. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incubys Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 2 hours ago, blaa said: Why I am quoting you has another reason though: As far as I can tell, it was live on TS (like 2 days?), but nobody (really) noticed. There are clubs and people even fight CC, but nobody really cares a lot about that. It wouldnt be a lot of effort to inform TS-players what's new when they patch TS, but, again, i dont expect KK improving in transparency and communication (we said it so many times, but nothing happened). That isnt noaccs fault, IMO. Thank you for clarifying, I'm not on TS so didn't know. However there is a TS thread which I wasn't aware of until I had a look around, and on there one person did mention the change (and their dismay at it) which confirms it was on TS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Community Manager Noacc Posted February 4, 2022 Author Community Manager Share Posted February 4, 2022 Copied fresh from discord 🎉 Dear Heroes, Thanks to your recent feedback on the Club Champion changes we have reviewed formula to match the playstyle of both active and not -so-active players. We would like to share the table of calculations and the latest formula: Here are some examples of different participants counts and Impression% done, see the numbers in the three formulas: *We are comparing the calculations of the OLD vs NEW formula.* And here are how the formula for newst calculations are done: ROUND(SQRT(Participants)*0.6)+ROUNDUP(Impression%). With these changes we would like to encourage equal participation, communication and teamplay in defeating the Club Champions. Our intention is to stimulate more people to participate in the performances while also reward the activity. Of course the two won't be not necessarily connected (Which was the case in the OLD formula). We want more players to have access to the girls if they are in an active club and participate in the Club Champions’ performances. As a difference to the OLD formula, the newer ones are stimulating more participation and more equal participation. Thank you four your feedback. Don't forget to leave your thoughts Kind regards, Kinkoid PP We are also looking for ways to cap the level of the Club Champions, futher improving their balance. PPP On Table 1 there is a very specific corner case where the return is -6% 2 11 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Ravi-Sama Posted February 4, 2022 Moderator Share Posted February 4, 2022 4 minutes ago, Noacc said: Thanks. I'll share this w/ my club, and maybe it will raise spirits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Community Manager Noacc Posted February 4, 2022 Author Community Manager Share Posted February 4, 2022 Something that I forgot to mention - We will try to push this change faster. ( No due dates, don't want to give false promises for next week) 6 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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