[Off-topic] Daylight Saving Time in Europe: Will it really end in 2021?

[Kenrae]

12 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

The European Parliament has approved plans to end seasonal daylight savings hour changes across the EU by 2021.

I'll believe it when I see it 🙄

Edited March 27, 2021 by DvDivXXX
Mod edit: Side discussion made into its own thread

[Makinen]

28 minutes ago, Kenrae said:

I'll believe it when I see it 🙄

Yeah, i mean the European Parliament approving something, and planning to implement it THAT SAME YEAR?

I mean, i know it's close to April, but...

[Kenrae]

7 hours ago, Makinen said:

Yeah, i mean the European Parliament approving something, and planning to implement it THAT SAME YEAR?

I mean, i know it's close to April, but...

And a measure that absolutely everybody would agree with to boot, those are really difficult to find. That's why I'm skeptical.

[Eman]

hace 3 minutos, Kenrae dijo:

And a measure that absolutely everybody would agree with to boot, those are really difficult to find. That's why I'm skeptical.

And you do well being skeptical, because while everydody agrees to get rid of it, not everybody agree on the how. Germany would like to keep the Summer time all year around, but other countries like Spain (and I think France too), prefer the Winter time.

[Chthugha]

There is no winter time. There is your normal timezone and then daylight savings time for the summer months. So if you agree to abolish it, then you get rid of the DST and therefore stickwith your timezone. They asked idiots on the street what they wanted. And that leads to people saying they want summer time because who doesn't want summer all year. The question shouldn't be which time you want, but whether or not you want to get rid of DST. You can't change the timezone you are in. If you do, you run into long term sleep pattern troubles in the winter (especially in more northern countries), because the sun would be rising very late. It will actually lead to things like stress, depressions and a general bad state of health. But no, that's not what has been explained to people. "Do you want summer time or winter time?" Like I said, those things don't exist.

-end of the rant-

I finished PoA this morning though.

[Eman]

hace 44 minutos, Chthugha dijo:

There is no winter time. There is your normal timezone and then daylight savings time for the summer months. So if you agree to abolish it, then you get rid of the DST and therefore stickwith your timezone. They asked idiots on the street what they wanted. And that leads to people saying they want summer time because who doesn't want summer all year. The question shouldn't be which time you want, but whether or not you want to get rid of DST. You can't change the timezone you are in. If you do, you run into long term sleep pattern troubles in the winter (especially in more northern countries), because the sun would be rising very late. It will actually lead to things like stress, depressions and a general bad state of health. But no, that's not what has been explained to people. "Do you want summer time or winter time?" Like I said, those things don't exist.

-end of the rant-

I finished PoA this morning though.

Yes and no. Before WW2 France had the same timezone as GB but the germans changed it to their own timezone when they invaded it during the war, and Spain did the same for political reasons. Once the war ended, tho, they didn't go back to their previous, and rightfully, timezone.

What happens now is that these governments are thinking about using this opportunity to go back to their proper timezone.

[Chthugha]

Just now, Eman said:

Yes and no. Before WW2 France had the same timezone as GB but the germans changed it to their own timezone when they invaded it during the war, and Spain did the same for political reasons. Once the war ended, tho, they didn't go back to their previous, and rightfully, timezone.

What happens now is that these governments are thinking about using this opportunity to go back to their proper timezone.

That would require the country to adapt a completely different timezone altogether (especially Spain should really move to UTC+0), which has nothing to do with keeping "summer time" or "winter time". Because none of those two options would move you back to the timezone you actually belong in. In the Netherlands we have the same shit going on. We are closer to the UTC+0 timezone, but are in UTC+1 because everyone around us by landborders are as well. Independent of taking normal time (UTC+1) or DST time (UTC+2), it would be the wrong timezone anyway. The thing here is that moving away by an hour from the timezone (taking DST) is a massive national health risk for countries with a higher latitude, because the length of the amount of sunlight fluctuates the more. The correct move would be to scrap DST and stay with your timezone as EU. Which timezone that is, should be a matter for the national governments and yes, Spain should move to the UTC+0 timezone, but so should the Netherlands and Belgium and probably France as well. Keeping DST time as your time would nullify that change though, so that would be absolutely counterproductive.

In short, the thing you mentioned has no actual impact on abolishing DST and which of the two times should be taken. It's just a related side choice governments have to make on their own, which shouldn't require EU interference to begin with. Not that the EU should be the guiding entity to say what to do with DST, but that's what it comes down to right now.

[Eman]

hace 12 minutos, Chthugha dijo:

That would require the country to adapt a completely different timezone altogether (especially Spain should really move to UTC+0), which has nothing to do with keeping "summer time" or "winter time". Because none of those two options would move you back to the timezone you actually belong in. In the Netherlands we have the same shit going on. We are closer to the UTC+0 timezone, but are in UTC+1 because everyone around us by landborders are as well. Independent of taking normal time (UTC+1) or DST time (UTC+2), it would be the wrong timezone anyway. The thing here is that moving away by an hour from the timezone (taking DST) is a massive national health risk for countries with a higher latitude, because the length of the amount of sunlight fluctuates the more. The correct move would be to scrap DST and stay with your timezone as EU. Which timezone that is, should be a matter for the national governments and yes, Spain should move to the UTC+0 timezone, but so should the Netherlands and Belgium and probably France as well. Keeping DST time as your time would nullify that change though, so that would be absolutely counterproductive.

In short, the thing you mentioned has no actual impact on abolishing DST and which of the two times should be taken. It's just a related side choice governments have to make on their own, which shouldn't require EU interference to begin with. Not that the EU should be the guiding entity to say what to do with DST, but that's what it comes down to right now.

You are correct, yes, but what some suggest here is that Spain should remain in the regular system while others in Europe would adopt the DST system the whole year, leaving us one hour behind by de facto.

And sadly, the EU is not very keen on the idea of having different timezones because, for bureaucracy, having only one shard timezone across all the countries (excluding Portugal) is simpler. After all, the western ones would like to move to UTC+0, but others like Greece would benefit the most from going UTC+2, and that would cause schedule problems that the EU doesn't want to face.

[jelom]

@DvDivXXX Yes, please, splitt to offtopic, because it seems there is a hot debate about this.

11 hours ago, Chthugha said:

I mostly fear they'll do it the wrong way though and take DST as standard time.

If there is no DST change, then adopting the hour of DST means changing your time zone

1 hour ago, Chthugha said:

"Do you want summer time or winter time?"

The problem is that in spanish the word "tiempo" means time but also means weather. So if you ask people if they want summer weather o winter weather ...

3 hours ago, Kenrae said:

And a measure that absolutely everybody would agree with to boot,

Wrong, not everybody. For instance, I want things to stay as they are now, with Spain in UTC+1 applying DST in summer. A different matter is if you talk about the governments, but sometimes what governments do are not in the interest of citizens.

[DvDivXXX]

It's done.

[Makinen]

Personally, i don't see what the problem is with implementing a standard time that's valid worldwide, and do away with timezones altogether.

I mean, i know it's called a 9-to-5 job, but that doesn't mean it needs to literally be from 9 to 5. If we use an (pardon the name) Earth Standard Time and wherever you are the sun rises at 6 am EST, then you'd be working a 7-to-3. If you're more east and the sun rises at 10 am EST, then you'd work an 11-to-7. Everyone gets the same sunlight hours and you know what time it is everywhere without having to look it up.

DST is honestly little more than people trying to bend time to fit their schedule, when there should realistically be no problem doing it the other way around. It's like having an emotional attachment to midnight being 12 am or something.

Or am i misunderstanding this?

Edited March 27, 2021 by Makinen

[Alkazord]

5 hours ago, Makinen said:

Personally, i don't see what the problem is with implementing a standard time that's valid worldwide, and do away with timezones altogether.

I mean, i know it's called a 9-to-5 job, but that doesn't mean it needs to literally be from 9 to 5. If we use an (pardon the name) Earth Standard Time and wherever you are the sun rises at 6 am EST, then you'd be working a 7-to-3. If you're more east and the sun rises at 10 am EST, then you'd work an 11-to-7. Everyone gets the same sunlight hours and you know what time it is everywhere without having to look it up.

DST is honestly little more than people trying to bend time to fit their schedule, when there should realistically be no problem doing it the other way around. It's like having an emotional attachment to midnight being 12 am or something.

Or am i misunderstanding this?

Human being do not work this way, and no one would agree to such a suggestion. It's in the realms of SF.

[Chthugha]

8 hours ago, jelom said:

 

If there is no DST change, then adopting the hour of DST means changing your time zone

The problem is that in spanish the word "tiempo" means time but also means weather. So if you ask people if they want summer weather o winter weather ...

It would indeed change timezone, but to the wrong side. For us it would mean we would be in a timezone where the sun would reach its highest point when it is noon in Saint Petersburg. In the Netherlands we are 1h40m of rotation behind Saint Petersburg, which means the sun would be at its peak around 20 to 2 in the afternoon. Take with that that our "shortest day" is 7h40min of sunlight, and it is more or less centered around the peak time and it would mean the sun would only start to rise around 10 to 10 in the morning. This is all kinds of bad and should never happen. I rather have the current system with the superfluous DST, than no DST but that the government decided on "summer time". Spain is less susceptible to this nonsense, because your daylength doesn't fluctuate as much. The Germans wanting summertime is what makes me fear my government will follow suit and make life in the winter months hell. The question they asked in the survey is therefore the wrong one. You should never ask citizens if they want summertime or wintertime, because those terms are just wrong to begin with. The question should be, do you want DST or not.

-edit-

I think this should be done un each country separately, btw. This shouldn't be a EU governed continental decision. I think the reason some countries want a timezone shift back is because if we take DST time as EU, that wouldn't change the actual timezone of those countries (-1 for change and +1 for DST time). That says enough about the stupidity of taking DST is only time.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Chthugha

[DvDivXXX]

11 hours ago, jelom said:

The problem is that in spanish the word "tiempo" means time but also means weather. So if you ask people if they want summer weather o winter weather

That's also the case in French, and probably other Latin-based languages ("le temps" can mean either time or the weather). But it's rarely ambiguous which one you mean based on context. In this case, we don't use that word for DST anyway, but the word for "hour" ("l'heure") instead. The main focus is on the one hour we either "gain" or "lose" and which way we must "turn the clock" when we switch to or out of DST. Even though it's almost all automated in this digital age.

As a kid it used to be this big thing that everybody was talking about for days, you had to manually change every clock in the house and everybody's watch and so on. Nowadays, most people I know don't wear a watch, their mobile phone already tells them what time it is, and pretty much the only thing I still need to change manually is our old-school alarm clock. I tend to even forget or not pay too much attention to DST until suddenly the time on my computer seems off, then I go to the bedroom to double-check with the alarm clock. And I like having at least one thing that doesn't switch by itself.

Anyway, losing DST won't be a huge change in France beyond the stress around each shift, I think. Even if we end up with "summer time" as the new default, the main difference I can think of is that at the heart of winter instead of maybe catching a glimpse of sunrise during your morning commute, you might catch a glimpse of sunset after leaving your workplace.

[Shorty-er]

11 hours ago, Makinen said:

Personally, i don't see what the problem is with implementing a standard time that's valid worldwide, and do away with timezones altogether.

Humanity (mostly) managed to do it with dates, you'd think time would be next. But noooo...

3 hours ago, Chthugha said:

... it would mean the sun would only start to rise around 10 to 10 in the morning.

<shudder>

I'm with Chthuga, both geographically and with his position in this. And with his fear we might "simply" follow germany  

Edit: and what an odd topic to discuss here!  

Edited March 27, 2021 by Shorty-er

[Chthugha]

5 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

Anyway, losing DST won't be a huge change in France beyond the stress around each shift, I think. Even if we end up with "summer time" as the new default, the main difference I can think of is that at the heart of winter instead of maybe catching a glimpse of sunrise during your morning commute, you might catch a glimpse of sunset after leaving your workplace.

And that is where it becomes a mass health risk. Clock hours are a man-made construct. The biology of our bodies require sunlight to wake up. In the night we produce melatonin to sleep. That production is halted by even the smallest amount of sunlight. Sunlight is the actual regulator of our internal clock. The change to DST time will make it unlikelier that you'll get that morning exposure. We already see it today with winter depressions and increased stress levels. No need to make that even worse by choosing the wrong clock time.

[Eman]

hace 17 horas, Makinen dijo:

Personally, i don't see what the problem is with implementing a standard time that's valid worldwide, and do away with timezones altogether.

I mean, i know it's called a 9-to-5 job, but that doesn't mean it needs to literally be from 9 to 5. If we use an (pardon the name) Earth Standard Time and wherever you are the sun rises at 6 am EST, then you'd be working a 7-to-3. If you're more east and the sun rises at 10 am EST, then you'd work an 11-to-7. Everyone gets the same sunlight hours and you know what time it is everywhere without having to look it up.

DST is honestly little more than people trying to bend time to fit their schedule, when there should realistically be no problem doing it the other way around. It's like having an emotional attachment to midnight being 12 am or something.

Or am i misunderstanding this?

You do realize that we don't even use the same calendar around the world, right? And you want everybody to use the same standard time? Good luck trying to make all the countries agree on where/when to set the standard that will make all the other countries have to switch, causing weeks of mayhem and chaos.

And then wait until new year comes and it turns out that "midnight" is in the middle of your working hours...

[Makinen]

1 hour ago, Eman said:

You do realize that we don't even use the same calendar around the world, right? And you want everybody to use the same standard time? Good luck trying to make all the countries agree on where/when to set the standard that will make all the other countries have to switch, causing weeks of mayhem and chaos.

And then wait until new year comes and it turns out that "midnight" is in the middle of your working hours...

Yes, but we're talking about clocks. Time. 24 hours in a day is global. That has nothing to do with whether your summer holidays happen to be in January if you live on the southern hemisphere.

As for New Year's: You DO realize that time is a relative thing, right? On New Year's Day, i can turn on the TV in the afternoon and watch New Year's over in Australia because it happens to be the middle of the night there, regardless of what time it would be for me. Again, what would it matter if the clock hands say 12 am or 6 pm at the darkest moment of the night when you'd be setting off fireworks?

Even under a single timezone, you're still celebrating the New Year at the same relative time you've always been. There is literally zero difference between celebrating the New Year at 12 am in UTC-6, and 6 am in UTC+0 if you're standing in the exact same location.

[Kenrae]

19 hours ago, jelom said:

Wrong, not everybody. For instance, I want things to stay as they are now, with Spain in UTC+1 applying DST in summer. A different matter is if you talk about the governments, but sometimes what governments do are not in the interest of citizens.

You're the first person I know that thinks like that  .

Spain was in the proper timezone (UTC instead  of UTC+1) until the Civil War, when Franco switched to German timezone for purely political reasons. That's one of the reasons we eat lunch "later" than everybody else, it's not that late actually if you take that into account.
Anyway, we have more sun exposure than most countries, so in our case it's not that big of a deal as in other places where choosing the correct timezone is more important.

[Eman]

hace 35 minutos, Makinen dijo:

Yes, but we're talking about clocks. Time. 24 hours in a day is global. That has nothing to do with whether your summer holidays happen to be in January if you live on the southern hemisphere.

As for New Year's: You DO realize that time is a relative thing, right? On New Year's Day, i can turn on the TV in the afternoon and watch New Year's over in Australia because it happens to be the middle of the night there, regardless of what time it would be for me. Again, what would it matter if the clock hands say 12 am or 6 pm at the darkest moment of the night when you'd be setting off fireworks?

Even under a single timezone, you're still celebrating the New Year at the same relative time you've always been. There is literally zero difference between celebrating the New Year at 12 am in UTC-6, and 6 am in UTC+0 if you're standing in the exact same location.

I didn't say a word about holidays, either summer or winter, so I don't know what that has anything to do with my post.

As for the second part, do (no need for capital letters) you realize that you're going against your own argument? If we all have one same timezone and share the same 24 hours cycle, only one place will celebrate New Year at the exact 00h, with the rest of the world welcoming it in whatever time they happen to be. No more "look, Australians are already celebrating New Year" nor anyhting of that because it would happen at the same time around the world.

As for skipping the part about making every country agree on that, you made the right choice. It's impossible for that to happen. At least not for a very long time.

[Makinen]

2 hours ago, Eman said:

I didn't say a word about holidays, either summer or winter, so I don't know what that has anything to do with my post.

As for the second part, do (no need for capital letters) you realize that you're going against your own argument? If we all have one same timezone and share the same 24 hours cycle, only one place will celebrate New Year at the exact 00h, with the rest of the world welcoming it in whatever time they happen to be. No more "look, Australians are already celebrating New Year" nor anyhting of that because it would happen at the same time around the world.

As for skipping the part about making every country agree on that, you made the right choice. It's impossible for that to happen. At least not for a very long time.

Just this: Calendar events are already vastly different even with nations that use the same calendar system. I used summer holidays in January as an example of what's considered normal in half the world (summer holidays in June/July) and not normal in the other half (where June/July is the middle of winter). You're the one that brought up calendars and New Year.

As for the second part, again, why should New Year's be celebrated exactly at midnight? In the UK (UTC+0), they celebrate New Year at 1 am local time for me. Is their New Year suddenly worth less because it wasn't midnight in my timezone when they began?

I don't understand why you insist that having a standardized time across the globe means people are forced to celebrate New Year's at midday. Sure, there would be areas where the time we know as 'midnight' would happen at 10 am UTC, so they would be celebrating New Year at 10 am UTC... just like they're already doing. They're just calling it 00h because the timezones allow them to. It's psychology, nothing more.

As for having all countries agree: They already do, in a way. GMT has been a thing since 1847, this is just about calling "12 am UTC-6" simply 6 am. It won't mean the sun is going to rise six hours early all of a sudden, all you're doing is shifting the clock hands to be the same everywhere.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Makinen

[DvDivXXX]

6 hours ago, Chthugha said:

No need to make that even worse by choosing the wrong clock time.

Sure, I don't disagree. There are many other factors in play in this type of health issues, but if we can set the clock in a way that impacts them the least negatively, it's preferable.

On another note, @Makinen (and to a lesser @Eman ) please don't go around in circles on Makinen's naive suggestion. It is demonstrably impractical and humans just don't function the way this suggestion would require, that much is very clear to most of us already, and Eman made a good enough crash course in basics of why this wouldn't work or even be a good thing if it did. If Makinen still doesn't see it, then let's agree to disagree and move on, please.

I'll just add that out of all of the standard measurements in our beautiful metric system (which took many centuries to slowly and tediously form and eventually be clarified, unified and agreed upon by scientists at large, and many many countries)... the one HUGE exception among all the success stories "happens to be" exactly this: TIME. That's not a coincidence...

Wouldn't it be simpler and "not change a thing" if we only had a good clean system with 10 seconds per minute, 10 minutes per hour, 10 hours per day, 10 days per week, 10 weeks per month, and 10 months per year? Well, this system was indeed thought out and submitted along with the meter, kilogram, and so on a few centuries ago, but unlike the others, it was massively rejected by everybody ever. Why?! Why do we still keep up with those weird-ass remnants of the Babylonian base-60 maths to this day?

Well, because that's OUR time, and it's a very subjective and visceral notion to mark how long we have spent and might have left to spend on this Earth. Sure, it would be easier for our brains used to base-10 maths to do maths and scientific stuff with this hypothetical system, and indeed computers do. Somehow, "you're not 31 years old anymore, you're now 4.17 years old" is a harder pill to swallow for us HUMANS than, say, "this costs €1 instead of 6.5 Francs now"... ^^

Your suggestion fails to take this into account on a similar scale, Makinen. One 'o clock has a lot more MEANING on an emotional level than "the clock currently says one" to our human MINDS. So no, no one ever will ever want to hear that their 7-11 is now a 19-23, that their lunchbreak is now at 4AM, let alone that all of the people they know who don't live nearby (like, say, everyone they talk to online...) now have completely different notions attached to any time-related term than they do. Please get over it.

[Eman]

hace 33 minutos, Makinen dijo:

Just this: Calendar events are already vastly different even with nations that use the same calendar system. I used summer holidays in January as an example of what's considered normal in half the world (summer holidays in June/July) and not normal in the other half (where June/July is the middle of winter). You're the one that brought up calendars and New Year.

Alright, my bad. When I said calendars I wasn't talking about the festivities and such, but acutal calendars and how the year is split. Not every country follows the 30/31 days a month cycle that we're used to. And if that hasn't been changed, imagine the timezone situation.

And, by the way, the summer holidays can happen in different months, but they happen during the same season, so they actually make sense.

Cita

As for the second part, again, why should New Year's be celebrated exactly at midnight? In the UK (UTC+0), they celebrate New Year at 1 am local time for me. Is their New Year suddenly worth less because it wasn't midnight in my timezone when they began?

I don't understand why you insist that having a standardized time across the globe means people are forced to celebrate New Year's at midday. Sure, there would be areas where the time we know as 'midnight' would happen at 10 am UTC, so they would be celebrating New Year at 10 am UTC... just like they're already doing. They're just calling it 00h because the timezones allow them to. It's psychology, nothing more.

What do you mean with that? We celebrate it at Midnight because that's when one year eand and another begins! It doesn't make sense to celebrate in any other time. And since the timezone would be shared, there would only be one midnight. At any other place in the world it could be at any other moment, including working times in that zone.

And that is a problem that no one has now because we all live under different timezones and that allows us to celebrate it at midnight.

Cita

As for having all countries agree: They already do, in a way. GMT has been a thing since 1847, this is just about calling "12 am UTC-6" simply 6 am. It won't mean the sun is going to rise six hours early all of a sudden, all you're doing is shifting the clock hands to be the same everywhere.

You're too optimistic here. People don't think that they live in one or another timezone. They just live in their timezone and, if something happens that they have to deal with a different one then they use the common and simple method of, for example "they're two hours behind". The only ones that use one standard time and keep it are the military, and only those that have presence in other countries/continents where that is a problem.

 

@DvDivXXX I saw your post while making this one, so I'll finish and post it, and then I'll move on.

I'll just say that I'm glad the metric system didn't work for our time. It's weird as f*ck 😂.

[Makinen]

Exactly, it's psychology. Sentimentality, like driving on the left side of the road. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with sentimentality, but it can get in the way of practicality on occasion.

One thing though, an hour has 60 minutes and a minute 60 seconds because 60 is divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12 and 15. 10 on the other hand can only be divided by 1, 2 and 5. We ended up with 24 hours in a day because that coincides with the human circadian system. Desynchrony is actually a pretty big problem for space travel.

I actually calculated it once, and if you want to turn the calendar into a complete train wreck, you'd need to put 30 hours in a day and 9 months of alternating between 32 and 33 days (starting and ending with a 32 day month) for a grand total of 292 days, which time-wise would be equal to 365 days under our current calendar. You could also top it off with three 3-month seasons and 8 days in a week. You know... for science  

But yeah... seconds are seconds and hours are hours no matter where you are. Just trying to bring up the pros and cons of doing away with the need for conversion altogether, no harm intended  

Edited March 28, 2021 by Makinen

[windia]

On 3/26/2021 at 1:47 PM, Kenrae said:

I'll believe it when I see it 🙄

once you add any flavour the secretary of interior / home secretary / (whoever is responsible for the police in your country) classifies as "public danger" - it will be done in an instant.

currently they succeed with any nebular stuff they declared as terror or child abuse. Just be aware that this kind of rumbling is in the end never avoiding terrorism or fighting child abuse. It is just additional power creep without responsibility in the hand of the police - and used for anything else.

Or represent it as "the financial markets have a billion loss each time change". (well, others they can sell stuff due to it, so "they" profit more from selling)

 

On topic:

I prefer normal time. 

Because in summer it is hot. And I have to get up every day in the year the same time - with same "what the clock says".

Due to geographic circumstances the sun rises up and tries to heat the cool air & surface of the night. 

Due to geography there is no active cooler rather then the lack of sun in the night.

Due to physics in my area in the summer the surface responds more to the sun's heat and less to the night's cold.

So when the sun starts to go down, there is a long time a slower cooling then the heating up needed (in terms of delta Kelvin per hour).

Due to my biology I cannot fall asleep/ sleep bad when it is too hot. (for too cold I have blankets).

In the end: at 23:00 summer time it is as hot as it would be at 22:00 normal time same day.

When my alarm goes of at 06:00 - I have one hour less comfortable sleep in the hot summer.   

 

While I could change my spare time activities a bit, I cannot change the time my boss wants to see me in office. So getting up later is not an option.

 

 

oh and the current time zones in Europe are effed up due to political reasons. It would make much more sense e.g. if France & Spain join the time zone of Portugal and UK and Germany would be in the same with Poland and stuff. 

Because of science reasons: how the sun crawls over the planet and enlights the areas at the same time. And that is by far unmatched to the current time zone system in place. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by windia