Reworked PvP just hit the Test Server!

[windia]

42 minutes ago, Kenrae said:

I had developed a skill to know whether a player was boosted just looking at his level, club bonuses and stats. I'll need to relearn that.
But that's not a problem and is to be expected with any rework. The problems are simplifying everything and making it dumb and boring, I fear .

I did that for basic number too, just the screenshot gave me confidence. And I never checked clubbonus^^

 I agree that the biggest problem is that right now "the bigger fish wins regardless".

[windia]

As far as I understood the new influence of selected girls, this is then the chart of the "winning set" at the moment:

(thanks @Tom208 for the factors)

for lvl400

structural flaw of this table:

• "this +6 more only" counts from strong to weaker
  • => a MD only set equals the first yellow entry with 19.992 offense power, regardless order
  • => a LC only set equals the first dark orange entry with 17.500 offense power, regardless order
  • => a LD only set is less then 17 500 and more then 16.975 offense power as there are only 4 with highest LD stats

 

(ordered by offense (desc), source (asc), name (asc))

Nonetheless,

• someone with enough MD girls has - on level 400 - an advantage of almost 2.500 (of 20.000) against someone only collecting LC girls
  • makes for lvl 500 to 24.990 vs. 21.875 = 3.115 for 7 girls
  • and for lvl350 it is 14.994 vs 13.125 = 1.869 for 7 girls
• Having LD or LC or CC girls does not make much of a difference

What is missing in the "who is why stronger?" evaluation?

• the difference between rainbow and mono equipment
• which booster helps which equipment setup
• ...

 

Until now the Sex Champion 5* (Any, Murane, Shtupra) is very useful as she has a high class stat and low "side stats". There are enough opponents where she is Alpha. With the new system she is useless.

Edited July 13, 2021 by windia
reordered

[holymolly]

Soo..I´ve tried it a bit now but one thing I already fear is the even more monotonous gameplay / difficulty to catch up design..

The unique perks/ability are a must have for the new system imo in order to balance it somewhat.. even though I feel like that´s not the perfect solution to the pvp issue we currently have. Even if we those individual perks I feel like there has to be more than just perks maybe implement something like armor/equipment that can be equipped to girls and thus individualizing the girls even more.
Idk how you guys feel about it but I feel I would really enjoy more strategy and skill needed for pvp. Unfortunately I don´t know how feasible that might be. Since I imagine it would be quite a lot of work to give every girl different perks. The current classes could possibly be used as a "blueprint" of sorts. Depending on the class you could offer a selection of different perks to reduce the workload. Maybe HC could have "attack ability perks" , KH "buff/heal ability perks" and CH "defensive ability perks" ..

I feel like the new system has a lot of potential but it also needs a lot of work so I hope that KK doesn´t jump the gun this time like with the mythic items..  

 

[windia]

11 minutes ago, holymolly said:

Soo..I´ve tried it a bit now but one thing I already fear is the even more monotonous gameplay / difficulty to catch up design..

The unique perks/ability are a must have for the new system imo in order to balance it somewhat.. even though I feel like that´s not the perfect solution to the pvp issue we currently have. Even if we those individual perks I feel like there has to be more than just perks maybe implement something like armor/equipment that can be equipped to girls and thus individualizing the girls even more.
Idk how you guys feel about it but I feel I would really enjoy more strategy and skill needed for pvp. Unfortunately I don´t know how feasible that might be. Since I imagine it would be quite a lot of work to give every girl different perks. The current classes could possibly be used as a "blueprint" of sorts. Depending on the class you could offer a selection of different perks to reduce the workload. Maybe HC could have "attack ability perks" , KH "buff/heal ability perks" and CH "defensive ability perks" ..

I feel like the new system has a lot of potential but it also needs a lot of work so I hope that KK doesn´t jump the gun this time like with the mythic items..  

 

In my understanding the girls with different "side stats" had the task to bring advantages and disadvantages to every fight. Girl A helps best in case A, girl B in case B. So it was a player's task to find that fact and to find the situation with most advantage on his side.

 

Without any critical hits/perks like the current class features - this depth and any RNG is gone.  Eliana or Lapis - don't care anymore! Which surprises me, as I thought RNG is a base feature in this game.

Re: your idea: if I add manually anything to a girl (in harem), then RNG is maxed and complexed.

• it would require a new item class "girl perk"
• and maybe it is consumptive like boosters (wurks) - or just "permanent"
  • well, interchangeable would be nice - which can be done in different ways.
  • because "skilled wrong forever" might work in a stand alone RPG where I can start over the game again and again, not here

Taking the "status quo" of classes - a player could set perks for his battle team, these perks have each their own dis/advantage. Well, that would be similiar to equipment again, just with RNG^^ (and it would be anything but personalized girls, so, no) 

That's why I asked about "how this critical perks are meant". 

[windia]

I hope 3 girls is still the minimum to start in PvP / league. 

Getting 7 girls as an absolute beginner can take a while...

[Kenrae]

19 minutes ago, windia said:

I hope 3 girls is still the minimum to start in PvP / league. 

Getting 7 girls as an absolute beginner can take a while...

It is, I started a new account on the test server (since I never had been there) and you start PvP at the same time you have 3 girls. Your first boss fights are with 3 girls too, of course.

It's bugged as hell though, and of course the tutorial from the Dark Lord doesn't make any sense.

With the previous system I used 5 different girls depending on the opponent and I changed their order too (that's having the 2 mythic girls of my class, KH). Now it's just always the same seven girls and nothing else matters. It's boring and dumb and it takes away the rush of winning a league against higher level players because you've used a better strategy.

[Pelinor]

2 hours ago, Kenrae said:

Now it's just always the same seven girls and nothing else matters.

At least the new battle card is pretty 🙃

[DvDivXXX]

I can't make a long and detailed feedback post now, it'll come when/if I can (I'm very busy elsewhere these days). But this is too big to not at least voice my opinion at least briefly (well "briefly" by my standards).

1. This is NOT a "PvP rework". It's a rework of the Battle Mechanics. Claiming otherwise is a communication mishap and sorely misleading information. This will affect PvE fights (except for Champions) and PvP (ie Leagues, and Seasons) equally. So it's NOT a "PvP" anything. It's "just" a change of how individual fights are handled mechanically, in PvP and PvE.
    
2. Battle Mechanics were fine as they were and had already been dumbed down a peg by the removal of Judges. They involved some RNG, some specific interactions that could be tricky or unpredictable, and they even had bugs and class imbalances, but they at least allowed for strategy. This, as it's currently showcased on the test server, is a joke in comparison. Just pile up stats and press the button...
    
3. This update does NOT address the massive PvP imbalance that many of us have been pointing out for years. Furthermore, as Kinkoid had been teasing us with a future "PvP rework" in that context, I was at the very least expecting said long-term project to have anything to do with the actual PvP imbalance. That is, the fact that a player's ability to win in PvP is primarily determined by how long their account has been active, rather than how well they play (and everything else that cascades down from there). It is a huge disappointment to find out after all this time that it's absolutely not the case.
    
4. This update will still have a BIG and, sadly very negative impact on the still unaddressed PvP situation... It will give yet another massive advantage to a bunch of already massively advantaged players. Because yeah, you "don't need to have the latest mythic" (of your own class) to be competitive, anymore. Nah, you need at least SEVEN of them, now. Let's be real. Only whales and/or players who have been sitting on D3's top 4 koban-printing machine for years will benefit from that.

TL;DR? This is bad in and of itself, but on top of that it comes with the scary revelation that THIS is what the devs had in mind all along when they were telling us to be patient about the blatant imbalance in the Leagues... So yeah, all-around terrible news for the game, especially for anyone who actually cares about PvP.

[lepidocter]

1 ora fa, Pelinor ha scritto:

At least the new battle card is pretty 🙃

As long your browser is able to render those hexagons.

 

[Karyia]

9 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

I can't make a long and detailed feedback post now, it'll come when/if I can (I'm very busy elsewhere these days). But this is too big to not at least voice my opinion at least briefly (well "briefly" by my standards).

1. This is NOT a "PvP rework". It's a rework of the Battle Mechanics. Claiming otherwise is a communication mishap and sorely misleading information. This will affect PvE fights (except for Champions) and PvP (ie Leagues, and Seasons) equally. So it's NOT a "PvP" anything. It's "just" a change of how individual fights are handled mechanically, in PvP and PvE.
    
2. Battle Mechanics were fine as they were and had already been dumbed down a peg by the removal of Judges. They involved some RNG, some specific interactions that could be tricky or unpredictable, and they even had bugs and class imbalances, but they at least allowed for strategy. This, as it's currently showcased on the test server, is a joke in comparison. Just pile up stats and press the button...
    
3. This update does NOT address the massive PvP imbalance that many of us have been pointing out for years. Furthermore, as Kinkoid had been teasing us with a future "PvP rework" in that context, I was at the very least expecting said long-term project to have anything to do with the actual PvP imbalance. That is, the fact that a player's ability to win in PvP is primarily determined by how long their account has been active, rather than how well they play (and everything else that cascades down from there). It is a huge disappointment to find out after all this time that it's absolutely not the case.
    
4. This update will still have a BIG and, sadly very negative impact on the still unaddressed PvP situation... It will give yet another massive advantage to a bunch of already massively advantaged players. Because yeah, you "don't need to have the latest mythic" (of your own class) to be competitive, anymore. Nah, you need at least SEVEN of them, now. Let's be real. Only whales and/or players who have been sitting on D3's top 4 koban-printing machine for years will benefit from that.

TL;DR? This is bad in and of itself, but on top of that it comes with the scary revelation that THIS is what the devs had in mind all along when they were telling us to be patient about the blatant imbalance in the Leagues... So yeah, all-around terrible news for the game, especially for anyone who actually cares about PvP.

I agree with most if not all of what you point out.

This plus the previous "developments" that came with the mythic "items" and the club champions have been leading, IMO, to (let's say) underachieving gameplay (just give the girls numbers and an assign option like PoPs, while you're at it, to make it more automatic and easy) and less enjoyment and fun overall (yeah, upgrade hundreds of girls with a handful of items is quite something).

The only light I currently see at the end of the tunnel is the exit sign, I'm afraid 🤔

[DvDivXXX]

The sad part is that if devs didn't have such a strong Dunning-Kruger effect, they would have mastered those basics of competitive gameplay by now. Balancing simple competitions (League divisions, ranking system and reward distribution) and relatively straightforward 1v1 battles that only involve 1 active player (any fight in the game except against champions) isn't rocket science. But you need to be aware that you're not magically a master at it as you hoped, before you can take the first steps towards learning and eventually mastering those skills.

Like, seriously, I'm sure a few Wikipedia articles alone could already clarify and open up A LOT for Kinkoid's devs on those topics. Like for instance, knowing that PvP stands for "Player versus Player", which is something specific. In this game, like many other modern mostly idle games, we don't actually have PvP per se (as in, both players are online at the same time and play the battle directly facing each other). What we have is soft PvP, and indirect PvP: all battles are actually played by one human player versus the AI, but in the pseudo-PvP battles, the AI plays another human player's team, and the result counts towards the indirect PvP, which is the points-based competition we have: Leagues. That's typically easier in many regards (for players and developers alike), and why it's a better fit for this game than PvP proper (like in card games, fight games, shooters and so on).

So yeah, PvP is NOT a geeky synonym for "battles" as one would assume by reading the last two patch notes. And you could do it right if you really tried. But first, you need to realize that you have some catching up to do in how you're approaching it.

For instance, this proposed new battle system with no more class subtleties, no more specific roles or order importance, and 7 girls instead of 3... It could still be salvaged by adding at least some restrictions (and hopefully reintroducing some strategy elements). The big, very obvious one would be this: NO MORE THAN 3 GIRLS OF THE SAME RARITY IN THE TEAM. Boom. Just like that, you prevent all of the whales and active veterans from rolling all over the rest of leagues with their 7 Mythic teams, AND you give us more options AND you actually incentivize us to diversify and use parts of our collection that would otherwise never be relevant (even with 7 spots in the battle team instead of 3). Mainly, Epic girls and, for those who don't own a single Mythic yet, even a few Rare girls could see play for a change.

How about that?

[Tom208]

Critical hits have appeared.
For now, I've only seen double damage regardless of the girl's class.
And the defender can do at least twice critical hit during a fight (compared to 1 at most before).

[Pelinor]

30 minutes ago, Tom208 said:

Critical hits have appeared.
For now, I've only seen double damage regardless of the girl's class.
And the defender can do at least twice critical hit during a fight (compared to 1 at most before).

So, you are saying the critical hits which were removed three years ago because of game imbalance are back and worse than they were before right?

[windia]

25 minutes ago, Pelinor said:

So, you are saying the critical hits which were removed three years ago because of game imbalance are back and worse than they were before right?

in my understanding it was just HC taking the crit hit while KH and CH got other perks. So no imbalance on the fact alone.

[Anarky]

I am very, very new to the game (started playing 5 weeks ago), but I welcome any change that will make the game "deeper" than the current system. At least I think I will.

I will be honest here and admit I am not entirely certain what the best way to build a team is for pvp, because other than the "go for the girls of your specialty (Know-how) and max them in level and stars" advice, the rest have kinda faded away. So, here some thoughts about the new system.

1. As a new player, it terrifies me the thought that I will be asked to bring a team of 7 fully leveled, max-stared girls. The cost will be astronomically high for me right now, so I hope they layer the new system around the 3 groups of ranks and ask for:   4 girls for Wanker I-III     -     5 girls for Sexpert I-III     -    6 girls for Dicktator I-III. 

This way someone can choose to stay in a certain rank until they have enough girls to compete equally against other players in higher ranks.

 

2. Combat system suggestion

I understand that some of my suggestions are probably too complex for this kind of game, but I had free time and I went all-out.

- The girls attach one at a time, starting with the one on the right and moving to the left. Once the last one attacks, that cycle ends and a new one begins with the first girls battling it out.

- Each girl deals damage in her class (CH, KH and HC), defended by the opponent's stat in the same class. Then the defender deals damage based on her own class (i.e. HC), defended by the attacker's stat in that class. The turn ends and the next 2 girls face each other.

- If the girls can be "defeated" and removed from combat by having the damage done to your Ego also done to them, then that opens the game to all sort of effects that activate when one of your girls defeats an enemy girl, but since this probably too advanced for this kindof game, I will ignore this kind of trigger.

 

3. I love the idea of each girl having a skill set, so here are some suggestions.

- The number of skills a girl has depends only on the number of stars she has and not on her rarity, unlocking the 1st ability with the first star she gets, the second with the 3rd star and a 3rd ability with the 5th star. The 1 star girls are obviously the exception as they "probably" don't need skills for their use in PoP. This also means that 3-star girls only get 2 abilities that helps keeps things simpler.

- The base numbers for each skill are better for higher rarity girls compared to those of lower rarity, assuming the level is the same.

- Don't forget passive abilities that offer flat bonuses to other teammates.

- Some ideas for skills.

> You have +30% to [HC] while defending. (This offers a decent defense against HC attacks while keeping the girl's attacking capabilities at HC limited.

> After you fight against a [HC] opponent, increase Ego healing from ally abilities by 25% for 1 round.

> After you defend, all allies gain +20% defense to the same stat you defended against.

> After you attack, increase the next ally's KH attack by +25%.

> You deal +30% damage against enemies with [favorite position].

> If you are the last-girl-standing in your team, you have +20% to all your stats for the rest of the encounter.

> You have +30% [KH stat] against enemies with [favorite position].

 

4. With the huge number of girls in the roster, using Keywords, i.e. Dominate, to describe certain requirements for abilities to trigger is certainly an option. I'm sure you will do a much better job than me trying to find words with sexual innuendo, but here are some ideas

> Dominate: [Do something] when the damage you deal is double or higher than the defense of your enemy.

Example 1 - If you Dominate your enemy, your next attacking ally gets +10% for the rest of the encounter (3 stacks).

Example 2 - If your enemy doesn't Dominate you, decrease their main stat by 20% for 2 rounds.

Example 3 - If you Dominate your enemy, make a second attack against the next enemy.

> Rivalry / Contest: [Do something] when you fight against an enemy with the same favorite position.

Example 1 - Rivalry: You have +20% to [CH] this round.

Example 2 - Rivalry: If you Dominate your opponent, decrease their [CH] by 30% for 2 rounds.

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Anarky

[windia]

22 minutes ago, Anarky said:

I am very, very new to the game (started playing 5 weeks ago), but I welcome any change that will make the game "deeper" than the current system. At least I think I will.

I will be honest here and admit I am not entirely certain what the best way to build a team is for pvp, because other than the "go for the girls of your specialty (Know-how) and max them in level and stars" advice, the rest have kinda faded away. [...]

While I'm aware this thread is about the new system, I just wanna say:

nope, the current system has much more depth then "max 3 girls your stat". Every fight in league or season is different and might require different setups concerning alpha & beta girl, attached equipment (rainbow/mono) & how many each and booster choice. That is one of the reason e.g. girls have all different class values while their stat sum is all the same.

Now let's go back to topic. 

 

The league is _not_ grouped by level. It simply groups who qualifies for a round in a specific bracket. That is why you can have a lvl450 in the lowest league - this player simply went offline long enough or stopped competing to go up.

As you are not alone in the "starter leagues", others might have simply the same problem to get enough girls and upgrade them. So problem solved by having same starting conditions with a high likelihood to meet more of your "peer group".

Edited July 14, 2021 by windia

[blaa]

14 hours ago, windia said:

nope, the current system has much more depth then "max 3 girls your stat". 

that's true, but to be fair, the depth of the current system is very shallow and the changes they made the last few month made it even shallower. Being charm, being high level, fighting unboosted players is basically all you had to do. Sometimes switching gear or beta/alpha was helpful, but the few points you gained was almost never the reason you beat a higher level player. And so far i dont see what's changing in this regard with the new system.

I think there might be some easy options to add strategy to the game play, like using the hexagons for bonuses, giving some bonuses for girl order/special setups, and many other things player already mentioned. Hopefully the Q&A can help us to get them rethinking the current system (not introducing it too fast, more testing on the server, adding more depth before release, sharing more informations about mechanics, etc.)

I am glad there is at least something like crits at the moment, but it has to be more than that to make it interessting.

Edited July 15, 2021 by blaa

[lepidocter]

Gotcha.

Is not the combat system to be broken. Is how a gacha game clash with an hotseat League.

I can devise the best combat system ever, it will clash with the League logic anyway.

If they change the League in such a way it actually represent the player efforts and not a frag ranking, not only this system will be better, but even advisable. This is easier than adding skills to 800+ girls and have a resulting fine math.

There are two factors clashing, they have to change both to have them match.

[Uggi]

Hello
How about who you divide the leagues into levels first. 0-49, 50-99, 100-149, etc.
Because jumping in stupid leagues is annoying. You are in D1 or D2 with level 380 and in the first 10 places you only have types with level 450 and higher.

[GeorgeMTO]

42 minutes ago, Uggi said:

Hello
How about who you divide the leagues into levels first. 0-49, 50-99, 100-149, etc.
Because jumping in stupid leagues is annoying. You are in D1 or D2 with level 380 and in the first 10 places you only have types with level 450 and higher.

We already have PVP that gives you opponents based around your own  level, it's called seasons.

Kinkoid said they wanted leagues to satisfy people's desire for a server wide PVP, where you can compete against people outside those kind of level restrictions.

[windia]

Why is the defense tooltipped with "HC content"? Because there is only "critical hit" like HC left over? 

(have only HC test accounts)

[Oda]

In mine I see "Defense against [class]"

(there is the possibility having my test account is in my own language influences it? dunno honestly)

EDIT: test account's class is charm

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Oda

[Oda]

new mechanic appeared in test server

Edited July 16, 2021 by Oda

[blaa]

that has at least some potential and may add some strategic gameplay to it

KK rosso made two announcements regarding the new system

[Slynia]

@blaalol I was just about to post the same thing 😂 
I just want to include this comment from Rosso as well, which I found very interesting.