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​❌​​⛔​Why are Chargebacks Bad And Fraudulent ​​⛔​❌​


Noacc
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I'm creating this not-so-pleasant topic due to recent outburst of some threatening to file a "Chargeback".


The short version.
Chargeback is done by a user when there is a Fraudulent activity on their banking account. Chargeback is a security process which is not intended for the purpose of protesting game updates such as  balance changes or newly introduced game features.

When a product is used and a chargeback is created, the Fraudulent activity comes from the user.

Metaphorically speaking you can't visit the cinema and demand your money back for not liking the movie. Or eat a meal at a resturant and not pay the bill. 

Chargeback is dangerous for every company and often may result in lawsuits (which neither party would want). Futhermore, it is very easy to prove when a product has been used by the owner of the banking account. 

Chargebacks also heavily harms the reputation of the company with it's payment provider (Especially with adult content sites) 


Threatening us with chargebacks will not be tolerated (especially when provoking other users to do so) and will be considered as blackmail attempt. Simply put it's not legal. 


Chargeback is neither a right nor a commodity. It's a legal action, and a heavy one at that. And we will answer seriously and legally.


From a moral perspective this is also highly disrespecting all people who work on that project - all the programmers, artists, community managers, designers, customer support and etc. Threatening to chargeback is disrespecting everyone's work and livelihood.
 

It is not only a procedure that involves the users and a certain company, but the bank as well.  The account will be suspended and the high bank fees will also have to be the user.

 

 It's fair to provide feedback but there are ways to do it without blackmailing a company.
 

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If a someone does a chargeback with a long payment history e.g. monthly card,patreon,ect then it's not hard to prove that its not fraudulent activity this is a last resort used when your credit card was used by someone else without your permission or if you paid for a service that you did not receive.

You will lose access to your account and might end up owing money as well once they prove that you did get the service you paid for.

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There is one way to avoid people getting so frustrated that they make ill advised statements they probably have no intention of carrying out - don't keep throwing handfuls of idea's at the wall and seeing which ones stick. Improving the game is always welcome, adding things which break the game are going to cause frustration. Use your hush hush focus groups properly, gather feedback and act on it. I'm sure any experienced player asked if the current change to CC was a good idea they would have said no.

Edited by Incubys
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1 hour ago, Incubys said:

There is one way to avoid people getting so frustrated that they make ill advised states they probably have no intention of carrying out - don't keep throwing handfuls of idea's at the wall and seeing which ones stick. Improving the game is always welcome, adding things which break the game are going to cause frustration. Use your hush hush focus groups properly, gather feedback and act on it. I'm sure any experienced player asked if the current change to CC was a good idea they would have said no.

If I don't like that my local baker changes their recipes, I ask or give the baker suggestions to change it. If he doesnt listen or is rude to me, I complain about that or go to another baker. I dont threaten, don't break his window or set fire to his place.

Edited by Gotaku
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14 minutes ago, Gotaku said:

If I don't like that my local baker changes their recipes, I ask or give the baker suggestions to change it. If he doesnt listen or is rude to me, I complain about that or go to another baker. I dont threaten, don't break his window or set fire to his place.

What your analogy misses is the up front charge. So to correct it :

You pay your local baker for a months worth of your favourite baked good. After several days you discover they have changed your favourite baked good for something different. Because you have already paid for the month up front you are left with either asking for your money back, and if they refuse to refund you, accepting something you don't want or going to another baker and losing the money you had paid.

Not as elegant as your original comparison, but more factually correct.

With regards to the threats you mentioned, if you didn't get a refund you may make threats, thought the chances are you wouldn't carry them out as you were just venting in frustration.

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But that's the risk you take when participating in a subscription model. You always have to finish out the month. World of Warcraft isn't going to give you your money back for the other 29 days if you have played 1 day and want to quit. Charge bakcs are for when financial fraud has been commited, not for a patch you don't like (regardless if you are right or not for disliking it). Especially when dealing with services like PayPal for example its no joke, because they will server whole accounts for just minor complaints.

And theres venting frustration and theres threats + call to action; Noacc is responding to cases where someone was calling for more people to do so, thats not just an empty bit of frustration; others can take that serious regardless if the original poster just was a little angry or even joking. Thats the thing with the internet these days; threats can easily be picked up and worsened by others regardless of original intent.

Edited by Gotaku
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1 hour ago, Gotaku said:

But that's the risk you take when participating in a subscription model. You always have to finish out the month. World of Warcraft isn't going to give you your money back for the other 29 days if you have played 1 day and want to quit. Charge bakcs are for when financial fraud has been commited, not for a patch you don't like (regardless if you are right or not for disliking it). Especially when dealing with services like PayPal for example its no joke, because they will server whole accounts for just minor complaints.

And theres venting frustration and theres threats + call to action; Noacc is responding to cases where someone was calling for more people to do so, thats not just an empty bit of frustration; others can take that serious regardless if the original poster just was a little angry or even joking. Thats the thing with the internet these days; threats can easily be picked up and worsened by others regardless of original intent.

There is always that risk, and you have to be big enough to accept that. I have previously considered cancelling my Patroen to HH over changes made but by quietly weighing everything up decided to continue supporting the game. For now. I never felt the the need to shout from the roof tops that I may cancel as that's not me. Different people exercise there frustrations differently; better to shout and make idle threats then kick the cat or beat your wife up. Wait, wife ? Any of us sad men playing a game to see some digital porn are married ? Of course we aren't or we would be out in the real world lol (that's a jokey bit in case you didn't realise).

As for the "call to arms", it was soooo persuasive that the French are sharpening their guillotines, the Americans are throwing tea into Boston harbour, the Russians are invading Ukraine. As a call to arms it wasn't very spirited, it didn't inspire my inner rebel to rise up against the tyranny of KK for having the audacity of trying a (very bad) idea to improve the game. I can't imagine anyone following the suggestion, though if they were that monumentally stupid to initiate a fraudulent charge back they deserve everything they get.

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Yeah, you were in an hurry XD.

Some people is trying to elaborate (badly), so let's add.

TL;DR: cashback is not debating on the game, is punishing the company financial conduit.

Long version:

CASHBACK work mostly the same around the world and is a measure that allow for a refund on an expense, mostly with credit cards, when you cannot positively bargain directly with the other contractor part. Is managed by credit institutes.

Most of times is applied when a company attach untold expenses to your card, charge you differently than stated or apply recurring fees. The tool was done to avoid unaware customers to be victim of frauds and by most of law organs is treated this way whatever the inciting cause. You're indirectly telling "this company is cheating people".

Most of companies, think Amazon, have some pre-emptive policies on refunds and restitution to avoid the chargeback instance. Practically, you're bypassing the chargeback from the bank and bargain with Amazon for that solution, so everyone  is happy and no cashback happen.

Now, a cashback is really annoying, way more you can figure out for a company. That's why Amazon is so "gentle" on refunds and restitution. It is up to the point to come your home and get back your goods for free.

So, yeah, you can ask for a cashback. Is not a matter of being big or small, or what is convenient or not, if you think you should do it nothing prevent you to do it. You can pursue KK for girls being not busty enough if you're that crazy individual.

What he's trying to tell you is that KK will have way WAY more issues than what you're probably thinking and trying to obtain (just change some numbers in the game) and will use any tool in his arsenal to avoid for this to happen - even if you're ideally on the right side of the fence.

Cashback is not the refund policy of a company. Is a legal action with strong financial consequences. If you want to change the game, killing the company is not how you get a better game, you'll obtain the death of the game. That despite bakery analogies, law interpretations and silly "you cannot ask for a refund if you consumed the meal" (news: you can). Let's ignore fake legalese.

It's also perfectly fine for you to start any call to action and tell the game sucks, but you should understand that claiming rights is a fight between individuals. The other part will do whatever to survive. So, yeah, you CAN, but ask yourself if that's something you WANT, with all consequences that come along.

A point that Noacc is missing is that you have a refund policy already ingame. Go check the interface. You'll find it. That is way more "safe" for KK that not going for a direct cashback. If you're not happy about something, you can try to use it - a bargain with the company will start until both contractors are happy. It's part of your contract rights.

Hopefully no one will ever do, as I can guarantee that KK is like a cute dolphin in a world of sharks. Is the company you had to love, not the one to hate.

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It hurts the players as well when people do this because it means less money to pay for people to help out with support tickets so longer ticket wait times.
the Cashback option charges a company a fee on top of the amount refunded so they lose more money than the original sale.

It seems to be the thing going around lately to abuse the Cashback option 
it's being abused against people that do business online as their main source of income for the business.
it's pretty much the online version of theft they cannot rob you directly but they get your services then get their money back.
 

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There are a few somewhat incorrect thoughts in this thread. In my career, I have been the primary cash accountant for a corporate entity dealing with millions of dollars of customer payments a day. While it is true that I have moved out of that role, I have been responsible for setting up payment processing for plenty of locations over the years, at multiple companies. My experience is almost solely related to the US & Canada.

1. Chargebacks are neither inherently good or bad. Chargebacks for reasons such as product never being delivered, stolen credit cards, defective products, or misdirected payments are not a problem at ll. The last one rarely happens nowadays, but can still happen if companies do not a sensible payment processing setup and bank account structure. Often contested charges that come in as chargebacks for the billing company to answer can be easily resolved if there's a reasonable solution: replace the product, apply the payment to the correct account, etc.

2. Chargebacks are sometimes initiated before reaching out to the company that billed you to discuss the matter. this happens when you don't recognize the charge, or it is mixed in among a number of other charges. It can also happen when you initiated a payment to the wrong company, and the company you owe money to bills you automatically, and you contest that.

3. We all hopefully know that the move to online ordering and delivery has massively increased the amount of fraudulent transactions, particularly in peer-to-peer transactions. There are many people who wouldn't have tried to defraud the local store they buy stuff from, but are happy to try to take advantage of nameless, faceless people or large corporations.

Hopefully this will help clear some stuff up, as I know my club was discussing it, and there were simply factually incorrect things being brought up.

 

Edited by Zteev
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21 hours ago, Noacc said:

I find what @Gotakusaid to be a great analogy.
 

You are entitled to your opinion, but it does not address that you have paid the baker up front for a months worth of product which has changed without your knowledge.

In case it isn't clear, I do agree with your sentiment regarding incorrect charge backs. I just don't agree that it is a great (or even accurate) analogy

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3 hours ago, Incubys said:

You are entitled to your opinion, but it does not address that you have paid the baker up front for a months worth of product which has changed without your knowledge.

In case it isn't clear, I do agree with your sentiment regarding incorrect charge backs. I just don't agree that it is a great (or even accurate) analogy

Have I mentioned yet that my baker has a subscription bread service that delivers bread to your door every morning? (paid monthly)

🙄jfc

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54 minutes ago, Gotaku said:

Have I mentioned yet that my baker has a subscription bread service that delivers bread to your door every morning? (paid monthly)

🙄jfc

Not until just now, and if you had included this fascinating little tit bit in your original post it would have saved me having to correct your flawed analogy. Cheers for finally clarifying what you actually meant, as opposed to what you actually said.

 

Edited by Incubys
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Well, never heard of chargebacks by this name before, so thank you for teaching me something new.

Anyways, don't know how things are in other countries, but where I'm from, asking cash back for defective product is not a "negative" attitude, it's a consumer's right, legally recognized.

But this is missing the point. The point is that people use this right to harm the other party. Of course, using it this way, it's right abusivity. Recurring to it with the goal to protest is greedy, tiny and even childish.

I agree that several recent changes in the game are awfull. But the correct way to show your discontent is either manifesting your disagreement here in the forum, hoping that the responsibles will read and listen, or abandon the game and move on to something new. I'm even very inclined to go on with the latter, and will if the game keep changing for the worst. But this doesn't give me the right to try to harm another people.

If you acquire a product every month, and it changes to something you don't like, but it's not intrinsically defective, then you simply stop acquiring it. And you DO have the right to try and convince your friends and other people in the comunity to stop acquiring. After all, most of the places where this game is played are democracies, where people can speak their minds freely. But you can't create a situation in which you get something, and say it's defective (even when it's not), simply to make a point. Or worst, to get an unfair advantage over the other party.

So, people, if you want to protest in some way, make comments here, at the forum. Mobilize your friends and other people in the gamer comunity to suport you, making comments as well. And, as a last resort, if even a lot of people saying something, and the game producers party doesn't listen, simply hit them where it hurts: stop buying stuff inside the game.

It's (still) a free to play game. I agree that there are a lot of annoying pay-to-win features, but the game's core is still free to play. You don't have to buy anything. Of course, it'll probably make you loose contests, fall behind in events, and so on. But, understand, this concern is what makes people put money inside the game. So, once you can convince a number of people that they don't need to do it, and for a reason, I guess it makes an even stronger statement then this chargeback thing.

And, if everything else fails, you can always quit the game and never look back! There are a lot of other interesting game free-to-play around. This way, you will not change anything, but at least it will not bother you anymore! I know, you have invested a lot of time, and even some amount of cash, in this thing, and feels like a waste to just drop all away. I DO know, why do you think I'm still playing, even if I'm disapointed with a lot of the recent changes?

But believe me, if you are so unsatisfied with the game to the point of asking a baseless chargeback only to make a point, and you are still playing the game, you're only harming yourself. Sometimes, the better thing to do is move on, and never look back, you your own sake. This way, no matter what this game becomes, it will not affect your life! You'll be miles away, doing something that it's worthy of your time.

Edited by HEIS3780
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IDK, I don't think it is in any way okay to do a chargeback, because you find changes in the game unacceptable, that's not what it is there for and yes, it is indeed fraudulent behaviour or at least highly questionable, but several of the analogies used in the thread here, by Noacc and others are very much beside the point to be honest.
If a restaurant, for example, charged you beforehand and then delivered a crappy, disgusting meal to you, you would be perfectly within your rights to demand your money back. Bakers also normally don't provide a subscription service and charge you beforehand, but that was already mentioned.

I can't help but agree with Incubys, the best way to not have people make stupid threats like this, is not to screw up so badly.
Honestly, you guys have become so damn greedy, that half my club has either left the game or only checks in sporadically to play JUST new story content, in the last few months, and you just keep on edging things on and on, forcing players to constantly spend time on the game and preferably spend real money on it, just to stay in any way competitive and manage to get the event rewards.
And this kind of greedy, corporate behaviour, of turning a fun little game into more and more of a chore and a pure money grab, is what leads to people acting so stupid.
Look at the current event, 5 daily missions to get the reward AND you run a Legendary Contest concurrently. I mean, really? How much time are we supposed to spend on this? How often check in on the game in a single day?
It's no wonder people are angry.
Yes, they shouldn't react like this, and act more mature as well, but there's no denying that there are valid reasons to be angry.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Noacc, just a couple things if I may. Strictly Legally speaking, a good amount of what you’re saying is inaccurate. The best example I can think of is buying that sweet new car you want so bad. In time you have to have the air conditioner repaired 7 or 8 times. Always the same problem. Always the same part/repair. You love your car. But, dang it, for 50,000 the frikken air conditioner should work. Even though you can still use the car you have the legal choice to make the Auto Co buy the car back under Lemon laws. This principle is available to all consumers for all purchases.  Credit Card CO’s have “chargeback” clauses in place for these situations for purchases made with their products. 
 

I understand the purpose for the heavy handed tone of your post. Sabre rattling is, sadly, a viable tactic in negotiating. I will, however, offer instead the old adage that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

thanx

 

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Sorry for the afterthought. Upon pondering y’all’s bakery analogy. Let’s say you paid a month ahead for a loaf of white bread every other day delivered to you. At some point, the baker changes to delivering potato bread. He believes his potato bread is the best around. It actually costs him a little more to make but he believes in it enough that he is willing to lose a bit to serve his customer better. However, you simply cannot stand potato bread. Period. You explain this to the baker. The baker, on the other hand, can’t believe you don’t like the potato bread. Everyone else does. They said so on his forum. He believes in his bread so much that he refuses to make you the regular white bread. 
 

At this point we are at an impasse. The baker is perfectly within his rights to change his product. But, alas, he entered into a valid contract with you that can no longer be fulfilled to your satisfaction. You are well within your rights to expect a refund on the “prorated “ value of your remaining contract. Hopefully you and the baker can discuss the situation and come to an amicable resolution. If not you can pursue a legal action. If you happened to have paid with a credit card most CC companies have resolution departments as part of your protection package that will assist you in your endeavor. 
 

thanx again, dang my fingers are tired. Lol

 

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