The rights of stating opinions and mutual respect

[Observer_X]

It is with an uneasy feeling that I write this post, a feeling started when I read a few days ago some posts in another thread. I would have liked to quote those posts, but unluckily they got deleted before i had enough time to write this down, fact that contributed to increase the uneasy feeling. So, hoping to avoid to gain a ban from all this, it is maybe better i write down some premises.

First thing first, in writing what follows i do not intend to offend anyone in any way: what I intend to do is satisfy my urge to say what I feel I need to say. Moreover, I'm not trying to convince anyone: what follows is simply my opinion, based on my experiences and knowledge. If the experiences and knowledge of anyone who reads all this make them in disagreement with me, I respect your opinion, but be warned that in this particular case I will hardly change mine, despite what anyone could say.

That said, a small sumption of what caused the uneasy feeling. I don't recall neither which topic were the posts in, nor the exact words or the first poster (a few days have passed and, taken by some personal affairs, now my memory fails me, please forgive me about this). The important part, anyways, was the concept treated, and that I remember all too well. The fact started with an user heavily complaining (quite in harsh words) and accusing the devs of botching the game to gain more money. Another user (if i am correct, it was Blain, but I am not 100% sure, and if I am wrong, please excuse me in advance) warned the user about his behaviour, saying that similar speeches are not welcome in this forum, and that this forum is made and owned by the devs, and we are only the people that post inside it.

And at this point started that uneasy feeling of mine, and the urge to post what follows.

Point is, as far as my experience goes, a forum is a place where any poster has the right to post his opinions on the topics at hand, indipendently from what the opinion is, positive or negative. The fact that there is way and way to tell things, and the fact that opinions must be stated with respect and education are out of the question, and are not matter of discussion here. Another matter is that often is hard to state things in the desired way only with the written word, despite the use of smileys and the like, because, as experts in communication teach, the written communication lacks gestuality, intonation and other components that form 80% of the contents of communication.

The main problem is that i widely disagree with the rest of the answer given to that first ineducated poster. I think that a forum is made by the users and for the users, I have always thought this, and by my knowledge this is the default definition of forum. With reference to this forum, if the devs are not able to whitstand cruel negative critics (posed, as I said, that they are posted in an educated manner) then my opinion is that this forum has no more reason to exist.

Let me tell this. This year I am 43. More than twenty years ago, at the time of high school, I was victim of bullying, in an epoch where in my country (I am not American, despite the flag on my profile) there were no talking about bullying and the damage it may cause to victims. This to say I know the meaning of harassment, and I recognize harassment when I see it. Censoring negative opinions on a forum, especially one relative to a game (which should be only matter of enjoyment), may be not considered as harassment, but i think it goes dangerously in that direction.

It is out of the question that moderators have the undisputed right to punish users and delete their posts if they act as troll or spammers, and all the like. But I think that freedom of opinion stating is a different thing. A forum where an user needs to weigh every single word he writes (I mean far more than simply tell things in an educated manner, which, I think, is often part of a person training) because some opinions or judgements are unwelcome gives a really bad impression to users, especially to new ones. This also means bad advertising, as with any probability, counting the tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of players of Hentai Heroes and Harem Heroes, sooner or later, in other venues, some player will speak bad of the devs, and I think I don't need to explain how fast bad advertising spreads these days.

My strongest hope now is to never have to prove again that uneasy feeling, and this means I hope for a change for the best in this situation.

[Yamamura]

The post that was deleted, was there swearing involved? For some reason, as a 18+ hentai forum, we aren't allowed to swear... For that reason Mods need to take action, even if want they were saying was important.

5 hours ago, Observer_X said:

Point is, as far as my experience goes, a forum is a place where any poster has the right to post his opinions on the topics at hand, indipendently from what the opinion is, positive or negative. The fact that there is way and way to tell things, and the fact that opinions must be stated with respect and education are out of the question, and are not matter of discussion here. Another matter is that often is hard to state things in the desired way only with the written word, despite the use of smileys and the like, because, as experts in communication teach, the written communication lacks gestuality, intonation and other components that form 80% of the contents of communication.The main problem is that i widely disagree with the rest of the answer given to that first ineducated poster. I think that a forum is made by the users and for the users, I have always thought this, and by my knowledge this is the default definition of forum. With reference to this forum, if the devs are not able to whitstand cruel negative critics (posed, as I said, that they are posted in an educated manner) then my opinion is that this forum has no more reason to exist.

I love every bit of this right here! However, I hope you realize the Devs are French and lack the power, or the patience to understand what we are saying. They spend a lot more time on Discord and just have the mods deal with things here. They are getting better. Just very, very slowly. When it comes with listening to ideas and opinions, we are better off talking to a wall. Most of the time it's just venting and yelling at people in hopes something happens. They seem to care more about making money then caring what the players think. Prices are way to high for only one girl and they are adding more pay to win systems into the game. I really feel they are running this game down to the ground. They might still be growing, but how many of those players will actually stay?

Sadly a lot of the people here barely know anything about games to have a decent conversation with, or the type that doesn't actually care what you have to say, only wanting to prove you're wrong so they can feel better. So it not like we can talk with them either. It quite rare to have a really good topic last do to how much arguing (even without swearing) going on. Nobody can have a counter argument to what the other person stated. When this goes on long enough without the topic going anywhere, the Mods feel like they should step in and put a stop to it. With people unable to have good conversation with each other on important topic and the Devs too busy on Discord, I always wonder what the point of this website is for.

[Habi]

i agree on the most parts. but i must say 2 things:

1st: blain (if it was him) is also just a normal user. if he said what you says he said (in an educated manner) then it's also just his personal opinion and no official guideline. neither kinkoids nor moderators are bound to what we normal users claim or want. i don't yet know the new community managers but i think our 2 moderators do have a good sense of judgement when it comes to such things. you were also talking about bullying. this whole paragraph i was writing is valid if such statements are the exception. if they become the norm and a lot/every user uses them then yes i would agree that that would be a form of bullying and the officials would have to step in in a powerful way to stop this.

2nd: i for myself have harshly critizised some aspects of this game in the past (sometimes in an educated manner, sometimes not so much) and i will continue to do so in the future. i have never been punished for the critizism itself, only for being not educated. i like to debate about usefulness or refinement of my ideas as long as it doesn't drift away in a dangerous direction.

 

[Chthugha]

I'll just when I step in (either hiding/deleting a post or editing it):

- vulgar language (even though this is a hentai game, there is no reason not to keep things civil. if the whole post is unnecessarily vulgar, then I'll hide the post and tell the person not to use vulgar language. if it's just a couple of curse words, I'll edit the post. it will see the edited part as bold purple for me and blue for George)

- stating personal beliefs as facts and basing wild assumptions on it. if someone things the devs are milking the players for money --> fine. if they start saying that the devs purposefully create some bugs just to make us spend kobans to do basic stuff --> not fine. this is just a very simple example, which I usually just break down as nonsense, but there have been some wild QAnon alike theories. sadly people tend to belief anything they read, so I try to keep the really absurd and unbased theories hidden. this doesn't happen all that often though.

- attacking other players. I think the players know when they are attacked by someone. please report the post. if we judge it as too aggressive, then we will warn the user, and hide the post as well most of the times. and yes, if someone is just plainly insulting Kinkoid/Jessie or whatever, then that's crossing the line as well.

- off-topic posts. I've started the habit to hide as many off-topic posts as possible. certain players have a hard time just looking through the forum to find the right thread and just post their comment/question in the first thread they come across.

Now I do have to say that members of team Kinkoid have more powers on the forum than me and George (and Joe and Lala).
So they can step in whenever they feel like it's necessary.
However, most things are kept the way they are. In all those legendary days threads, most posts are still visible.
If they really want to, they could've hidden most of it.
It's not exactly a good promotion for the game.

[Skiron]

on the first sight this might sound overdone, but a forum is not a place of a 100% free speak!

if it would be this way, no forum worldwide would have (or need) any moderators...

and since some people tend to go overboard pushed by anonymity this would end in insults, fights and all kinds of chaos...

 

a bit about myself at this point: im an oldschool gaming nerd and like most of my kind i had my dreams of how my own game would be like...

but what most people dont dream of, is how your game should pay your bills, feed your kids and so on...

meanwhile i guess i personally would set up drop rates even lower than kinkoid does!

but if the way they have chosen pays out for them, that is the way both sides should be fine with...

 

now having bad luck and getting rid of some steam on a forum about it... totally fine!

accusing the devs to create "bad luck" intentionally and hiding it as a bug or whatsoever: that is an insult of being frauds!

and be honest, who in the world would accept that on their own forums?

none of us wants to be insulted "in a regular way" on any forum and we are thankful mods save us from that...

 

personally i am even surprised that some discussions are still around...

this is kinkoids forum and there is no doubt they have the right to defend their own and the games reputation...

if i would be in charge, discussions about game mechanics and how these "milk" players would be borderline at least...

but i guess there is a huge patience with people that want everything immediately and - of course - for free!

i just wish these players would start to consider, that without devs earning money of their games, there wouldnt be games anymore to play...

Edited September 8, 2018 by Skiron

[Yamamura]

8 hours ago, Chthugha said:

- attacking other players. I think the players know when they are attacked by someone. please report the post. if we judge it as too aggressive, then we will warn the user, and hide the post as well most of the times. and yes, if someone is just plainly insulting Kinkoid/Jessie or whatever, then that's crossing the line as well.

With how sensitive everyone is about what they believe in and it getting rejected in some way, or another, they will of course feel "attacked." There are too many nationality and personalitys people are dealing with. How is it okay when someone gets reported by being condescending, or showing pessimism? Were I live, I know a lot of people like that and was grown up in the environment. Sure, this is a public space and I should respect that, but is it a space for Americans, or some other country? I feel this is how I am being treated. Your opinion cannot change that.

[GeorgeMTO]

12 minutes ago, Yamamura said:

With how sensitive everyone is about what they believe in and it getting rejected in some way, or another, they will of course feel "attacked." There are too many nationality and personalitys people are dealing with. How is it okay when someone gets reported by being condescending, or showing pessimism? Were I live, I know a lot of people like that and was grown up in the environment. Sure, this is a public space and I should respect that, but is it a space for Americans, or some other country? I feel this is how I am being treated. Your opinion cannot change that.

The exact line is for myself and Chthugha (or any of the Kinkoids should they choose to step in) to figure out. There will inevitably be differences of opinion as to whether or not it was an actual attack, but that's why consistency from the moderators is necessary. Peoples feelings can't be changed, so we just have to do our best to shape the environment.

[Blain]

So I state the fact that this forum IS owned by Kinkoid and not a free speech area since it is moderated, and that hurts someone's feelings

so they go and start a thread about it

here's my opinion of that

facts don't care about your feelings

you don't like what I have to say?

block me

I don't go after people and get into long discussions and arguments, you get at most from me 1 reply and then I move on from you, because there isn't any reason to carry on a longer exchange on an internet forum

I also am allowed to express my opinions in here, and I do. What I don't do is chase after people and harass them, use personal insults against them, or passively aggressively start threads complaining about them. I would appreciate the same courtesy and respect.

With my 1 reply guideline in mind, I end with this. Welcome to my ignore list op

[Yamamura]

@Blain Reading back and I haven't seen anyone mention "Free Speech." Of course we don't have that, there are mods after all. However will still have speech itself.

4 hours ago, Blain said:

I don't go after people and get into long discussions and arguments, you get at most from me 1 reply and then I move on from you, because there isn't any reason to carry on a longer exchange on an internet forum 

I also am allowed to express my opinions in here, and I do. What I don't do is chase after people and harass them, use personal insults against them, or passively aggressively start threads complaining about them. I would appreciate the same courtesy and respect.

Yet here you are, two days later, in a long discussion/argument, going after people to add to your blocked list because you don't like what they have to say. At the same time asking for the same courtesy and respect... This is very hypocritical of you to do. Would you consider this a form of a attack, or being passive aggressive?

Facts might not care about our feelings , but we do care about facts. Like how we don't have Free Speech, yet the Mods at some points take it into consideration. We might not have all of it, but we still have some. The Mods are human after all and I thank them for keeping this open and untouched for the time being.

[Blain]

13 minutes ago, Yamamura said:

@Blain Reading back and I haven't seen anyone mention "Free Speech." Of course we don't have that, there are mods after all. However will still have speech itself.

Yet here you are, two days later, in a long discussion/argument, going after people to add to your blocked list because you don't like what they have to say. At the same time asking for the same courtesy and respect... This is very hypocritical of you to do. Would you consider this a form of a attack, or being passive aggressive?

Facts might not care about our feelings , but we do care about facts. Like how we don't have Free Speech, yet the Mods at some points take it into consideration. We might not have all of it, but we still have some. The Mods are human after all and I thank them for keeping this open and untouched for the time being.

So when I visit the forum for the first time in 2 days and someone mentions my name out of the blue, I'm not allowed to reply?

Free speech indeed....

That's my reply to you and my ignore list will grow yet again

Bye

[Observer_X]

After all these answers, I think I must make some considerations and precisations.

On 9/8/2018 at 10:59 AM, Chthugha said:

I'll just when I step in (either hiding/deleting a post or editing it):

- vulgar language (even though this is a hentai game, there is no reason not to keep things civil. if the whole post is unnecessarily vulgar, then I'll hide the post and tell the person not to use vulgar language. if it's just a couple of curse words, I'll edit the post. it will see the edited part as bold purple for me and blue for George)

- stating personal beliefs as facts and basing wild assumptions on it. if someone things the devs are milking the players for money --> fine.

Up to this point, I have no particular problem.

On 9/8/2018 at 10:59 AM, Chthugha said:

if they start saying that the devs purposefully create some bugs just to make us spend kobans to do basic stuff --> not fine. this is just a very simple example, which I usually just break down as nonsense, but there have been some wild QAnon alike theories. sadly people tend to belief anything they read, so I try to keep the really absurd and unbased theories hidden. this doesn't happen all that often though.

This is where I think my problem start. With the fixed parameter of stating things with education, people should have the right to tell anything, if it is based on their game

 

On 9/8/2018 at 11:56 AM, Skiron said:

on the first sight this might sound overdone, but a forum is not a place of a 100% free speak!

if it would be this way, no forum worldwide would have (or need) any moderators...

and since some people tend to go overboard pushed by anonymity this would end in insults, fights and all kinds of chaos...

 

a bit about myself at this point: im an oldschool gaming nerd and like most of my kind i had my dreams of how my own game would be like...

but what most people dont dream of, is how your game should pay your bills, feed your kids and so on...

meanwhile i guess i personally would set up drop rates even lower than kinkoid does!

but if the way they have chosen pays out for them, that is the way both sides should be fine with...

 

now having bad luck and getting rid of some steam on a forum about it... totally fine!

accusing the devs to create "bad luck" intentionally and hiding it as a bug or whatsoever: that is an insult of being frauds!

and be honest, who in the world would accept that on their own forums?

none of us wants to be insulted "in a regular way" on any forum and we are thankful mods save us from that...

 

personally i am even surprised that some discussions are still around...

this is kinkoids forum and there is no doubt they have the right to defend their own and the games reputation...

if i would be in charge, discussions about game mechanics and how these "milk" players would be borderline at least...

but i guess there is a huge patience with people that want everything immediately and - of course - for free!

i just wish these players would start to consider, that without devs earning money of their games, there wouldnt be games anymore to play...

experience. I think that it is our right as players to not believe in all that the devs say on the game, especially when there is not the concrete possibility to verify what is said (the first example that comes to mind in this case is the girl drop rate)

On 9/8/2018 at 10:59 AM, Chthugha said:

- attacking other players. I think the players know when they are attacked by someone. please report the post. if we judge it as too aggressive, then we will warn the user, and hide the post as well most of the times. and yes, if someone is just plainly insulting Kinkoid/Jessie or whatever, then that's crossing the line as well.

- off-topic posts. I've started the habit to hide as many off-topic posts as possible. certain players have a hard time just looking through the forum to find the right thread and just post their comment/question in the first thread they come across.

As before, obviously I have not a problem with these ones, in fact I think along the aforementioned vulgar language, these are among the main purposes for the existance of moderators

On 9/8/2018 at 10:59 AM, Chthugha said:

Now I do have to say that members of team Kinkoid have more powers on the forum than me and George (and Joe and Lala).

So they can step in whenever they feel like it's necessary.
However, most things are kept the way they are. In all those legendary days threads, most posts are still visible.
If they really want to, they could've hidden most of it.
It's not exactly a good promotion for the game.

I think it is a good think that most of those posts are still visible, although I am the first to admit that some tha I read were really exaggerated in their tones, and I would have had no problem in see them deleted. On the matter they are not a good promotion, it is undoubtedly right, but as I already stated, my opinion goes in favor of less censorship, as more censorship, I think, would be even more damaging that negative posts left unhindered.

On 9/8/2018 at 7:32 AM, Habi said:

i agree on the most parts. but i must say 2 things:

1st: blain (if it was him) is also just a normal user. if he said what you says he said (in an educated manner) then it's also just his personal opinion and no official guideline. neither kinkoids nor moderators are bound to what we normal users claim or want. i don't yet know the new community managers but i think our 2 moderators do have a good sense of judgement when it comes to such things. you were also talking about bullying. this whole paragraph i was writing is valid if such statements are the exception. if they become the norm and a lot/every user uses them then yes i would agree that that would be a form of bullying and the officials would have to step in in a powerful way to stop this.

I don't even wish to start to discuss devs powers, I am full aware that would get me banned lightspeed. And I agreed on the fact that (as i can tell up to now) the moderators have made quite a good work on this forum (apart the personal perplexities I expressed above). I agree also on your consideration on bullying.

On 9/8/2018 at 7:32 AM, Habi said:

2nd: i for myself have harshly critizised some aspects of this game in the past (sometimes in an educated manner, sometimes not so much) and i will continue to do so in the future. i have never been punished for the critizism itself, only for being not educated. i like to debate about usefulness or refinement of my ideas as long as it doesn't drift away in a dangerous direction.

And, being the occasion (and given time enough), I would be happy to be able to do the same things.

On 9/8/2018 at 7:19 AM, Yamamura said:

I love every bit of this right here! However, I hope you realize the Devs are French and lack the power, or the patience to understand what we are saying. They spend a lot more time on Discord and just have the mods deal with things here. They are getting better. Just very, very slowly. When it comes with listening to ideas and opinions, we are better off talking to a wall. Most of the time it's just venting and yelling at people in hopes something happens. They seem to care more about making money then caring what the players think. Prices are way to high for only one girl and they are adding more pay to win systems into the game. I really feel they are running this game down to the ground. They might still be growing, but how many of those players will actually stay?

Here I repeat part of my first post last sentence as it is adequate also for this: I hope for a change for the best in this situation.

On 9/8/2018 at 11:56 AM, Skiron said:

on the first sight this might sound overdone, but a forum is not a place of a 100% free speak!

if it would be this way, no forum worldwide would have (or need) any moderators...

and since some people tend to go overboard pushed by anonymity this would end in insults, fights and all kinds of chaos...

I'll try to be more clear. First let me remark that I posted entirely my opinion. Second, I think that a forum should be a place of 100% free ideas and opinion stating, and I think that is different to say 100% free speak. As i said above where i quoted Chthuga, i think there is absolutely no problem when moderators punish vulgar language, personal attacks, off-topic posts and the like. My problem starts when ideas and opinions, posed that they are expressed with education, get censored.

On 9/8/2018 at 11:56 AM, Skiron said:

now having bad luck and getting rid of some steam on a forum about it... totally fine!

accusing the devs to create "bad luck" intentionally and hiding it as a bug or whatsoever: that is an insult of being frauds!

and be honest, who in the world would accept that on their own forums?

none of us wants to be insulted "in a regular way" on any forum and we are thankful mods save us from that...

My answer to this? People that demonstrates to have shoulders large enough to accept this, are people that are really meritors of general and unconditioned respect. And respect of players, in my humble opinion, is something that devs can not do without.

On 9/8/2018 at 11:56 AM, Skiron said:

personally i am even surprised that some discussions are still around...

this is kinkoids forum and there is no doubt they have the right to defend their own and the games reputation...

if i would be in charge, discussions about game mechanics and how these "milk" players would be borderline at least...

but i guess there is a huge patience with people that want everything immediately and - of course - for free!

i just wish these players would start to consider, that without devs earning money of their games, there wouldnt be games anymore to play...

As I said above, I won't even start to discuss devs powers. On the matter of progressing in the game, as a free player I believe in obtaining results after a reasonable quantity of effort, and as I stated elsewhere in the forum, I think that the main difference regarding the progress in the game between free and paying players should be time.

9 hours ago, Blain said:

So I state the fact that this forum IS owned by Kinkoid and not a free speech area since it is moderated, and that hurts someone's feelings

so they go and start a thread about it

here's my opinion of that

facts don't care about your feelings

you don't like what I have to say?

block me

I don't go after people and get into long discussions and arguments, you get at most from me 1 reply and then I move on from you, because there isn't any reason to carry on a longer exchange on an internet forum

I also am allowed to express my opinions in here, and I do. What I don't do is chase after people and harass them, use personal insults against them, or passively aggressively start threads complaining about them. I would appreciate the same courtesy and respect.

With my 1 reply guideline in mind, I end with this. Welcome to my ignore list op

The thing I really have to say is: a completely misunderstanding of what I meant with my first post if I ever seen one. In the past reading Blain posts I judged him a fair pal, but given this last one I am not unhappy to be in his ignore list. I feel sorry only for the fact that in the future, if I have reason to do it, i will continue to quote him, so things could get quite confusing for him.

On 9/8/2018 at 7:30 PM, GeorgeMTO said:

The exact line is for myself and Chthugha (or any of the Kinkoids should they choose to step in) to figure out. There will inevitably be differences of opinion as to whether or not it was an actual attack, but that's why consistency from the moderators is necessary. Peoples feelings can't be changed, so we just have to do our best to shape the environment.

In the end, out of curiosity, a question for George: would you judge Blain post (and my answer) a personal attack?

[Observer_X]

I ask for forgiveness: in the last post the first quoting of Skiron got in the middle of a sentence for error, and for an unknown reason the forum don't let me edit the post to fix the error

[Skiron]

24 minutes ago, Observer_X said:

This is where I think my problem start. With the fixed parameter of stating things with education, people should have the right to tell anything, if it is based on their game experience.

I think that it is our right as players to not believe in all that the devs say on the game, especially when there is not the concrete possibility to verify what is said (the first example that comes to mind in this case is the girl drop rate)

...

My answer to this? People that demonstrates to have shoulders large enough to accept this, are people that are really meritors of general and unconditioned respect. And respect of players, in my humble opinion, is something that devs can not do without.

i dont want to claim that it would have been your intention, but with the marked lines you go a dangerous way...

summed up this would mean, as long the devs dont lay open all their decisions and statistics, the playerbase should have the right to believe the lie about it!

and that the devs would have to accept it... just have to!

On 9/8/2018 at 1:24 AM, Observer_X said:

But I think that freedom of opinion stating is a different thing. A forum where an user needs to weigh every single word he writes (I mean far more than simply tell things in an educated manner, which, I think, is often part of a person training) because some opinions or judgements are unwelcome gives a really bad impression to users, especially to new ones. This also means bad advertising, as with any probability, counting the tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of players of Hentai Heroes and Harem Heroes, sooner or later, in other venues, some player will speak bad of the devs, and I think I don't need to explain how fast bad advertising spreads these days.

so you consider bad advertising... so now please consider the devs point of view!

players should be allowed to disbelieve anything they say (aka calling them liars)

and should be allowed to state their opinion that the devs trick players into spending money (as long they do it in an educated manner)!

and again: the devs just would have to accept it...

beside the fact that generally thinking of the devs like this is no educated manner at all, this would be the worst advertising ever!

 

last but not least:

40 minutes ago, Observer_X said:

As I said above, I won't even start to discuss devs powers. On the matter of progressing in the game, as a free player I believe in obtaining results after a reasonable quantity of effort, and as I stated elsewhere in the forum, I think that the main difference regarding the progress in the game between free and paying players should be time.

why have you even quoted me before saying this? it is not related to the quote at all,

but just your opinion about F2P mechanics, while i was talking about the devs right to defend their reputation...

a right you actually want to take of them...

 

but this is still Kinkoids place, a part of their company, their game and their marketing strategy...

(aka advertising, a place where ppl inform themselves about the game)...

and they have the right to defend what they have build up... without any need to explain themselves or their decisions...

so if someone comes to their place, calling them liars or frauds, attacking their reputation and/or leaving bad advertisement,

they have any right to delete whatever they want... that is no censorship, that is common sense...

otherwise it would be a general permission for defamation!

[Chthugha]

15 hours ago, Observer_X said:

This is where I think my problem start. With the fixed parameter of stating things with education, people should have the right to tell anything, if it is based on their game

You don't have the right to tell anything you want, even if it's just an opinion.
The ones that are still visible have one very big distinction from the others, and that is that they aren't stated as a fact.
As soon as someone starts state things as facts, when they are not true, then you are crossing the line.
When you spread lies about someone/something like this, it's just common libel, which is not allowed.
So yes, I remove everyone of these and some of the borderline cases.

Let's take a simple but very graphic example:
I'm taking you as victim and I'll find out everything about you that is possible, and then start spreading the rumours about you that you are a pedophile on your work, to your social surroundings, in your city, etc.
You're obviously going to do something about that, because clearly what I am saying is not true, but it can seriously harm your reputation.
Just think about what Elon Musk is now doing with respect to that diver that was part of the rescue team in Thailand.
That diver can sue Musk for libel, and he will most likely win that as well. 

[Sinner]

On 9/8/2018 at 12:56 PM, Skiron said:

on the first sight this might sound overdone, but a forum is not a place of a 100% free speak!

If anyone is interested in seeing such a place with 100% free speech: voat.co is one of them.

[Observer_X]

At this point, I think I need to make some remarks and be more clear about some of my past sentences. To start doing this, allow me to quote myself:

On 9/8/2018 at 1:24 AM, Observer_X said:

First thing first, in writing what follows i do not intend to offend anyone in any way: what I intend to do is satisfy my urge to say what I feel I need to say. Moreover, I'm not trying to convince anyone: what follows is simply my opinion, based on my experiences and knowledge. If the experiences and knowledge of anyone who reads all this make them in disagreement with me, I respect your opinion, but be warned that in this particular case I will hardly change mine, despite what anyone could say.

Let me be clear, mainly in the optic of future forum relations: the statement above should be considered valid, in general, for any single thing i write now, I will write in the future and had written in the past. I also wish to clarify and expand the concept quoted with the following: save exceptions, I consider every opinion and idea I make public valid only for me, unless I can offer concrete proof of what I am stating. Point is, if I state something, and someone answers "I agree" , obviously I am happy, and if someone else answers "You must have s**t in your head", I won't be happy but I won't lose sleep on it. I try to follow these personal guidelines always strictly: alas, I am human, and I am fallible,  so being successful in this purpose is not always easy: because of this, i wish to give my excuses in advance if I fail to follow my chosen path.

All that i wrote above because, as wrong as I may be in this little paranoia, lately I had the impression someone could think I am sort of a would-be crusader of free speaking, maybe willing to do anything to change things. I know I have only my word on this, but trust me when I say that if someone should tell a similar thing about me to people that knows me well, he would probably get a mix of reaction from amazed glares to sudden explosive laughs, but certainly no one would take him seriously. Also there is something I mentioned in my first post:

On 9/8/2018 at 1:24 AM, Observer_X said:

 Another matter is that often is hard to state things in the desired way only with the written word, despite the use of smileys and the like, because, as experts in communication teach, the written communication lacks gestuality, intonation and other components that form 80% of the contents of communication.

Another impression I got in fact is that in past post I may have been partially misunderstood (Blain case was lampant, but given the ending that is also a different situation), so i wish to give again my excuses if I wasn't able to make myself understood correctly, and also in advance should it happen again in the future.

That premises made, let's go on with some answers.

On 9/11/2018 at 1:59 AM, Skiron said:

i dont want to claim that it would have been your intention, but with the marked lines you go a dangerous way...

summed up this would mean, as long the devs dont lay open all their decisions and statistics, the playerbase should have the right to believe the lie about it!

and that the devs would have to accept it... just have to!

As I told in the premises, I'm simple stating my own opinions and ideas, always with no intent to offend, so if you read that intent, my answer is no, there was nothing such as that. Moreover, as I said in the past, I won't even start to discuss devs powers, meaning that I had no intent to claim that they have to accept something or not. Also, a precisation: that the single player should have the right to not believe what he is told if he has a different game experience is one thing; conversely, that any player can freely state without any personal experience that he don't believe what is told is in my opinion a completely different matter. I may favor the first alternative, but if you read my past posts and felt that I was in favor of the second, then there were a misunderstanding.

On 9/11/2018 at 1:59 AM, Skiron said:

so you consider bad advertising... so now please consider the devs point of view!

players should be allowed to disbelieve anything they say (aka calling them liars)

and should be allowed to state their opinion that the devs trick players into spending money (as long they do it in an educated manner)!

and again: the devs just would have to accept it...

beside the fact that generally thinking of the devs like this is no educated manner at all, this would be the worst advertising ever!

Again I will repeat myself: I simply state my opinion, and in doing this, believe it or not, I don't have any offensive intent. In this particular situation, meaning the argument at hand, it is quite obvious that my personal opinion didn't take into account the devs point of view, as they are, with any probability, in conflict. That said, it may appear as a lawyer statement of convenience, but I consider there is difference, small as it may be, between not believing what a person say, and calling the same person a liar. I said that a single player that had a different game experience should have the right to tell his opinion about that (without insulting, and see below for the rest on this matter)

On 9/11/2018 at 1:59 AM, Skiron said:

why have you even quoted me before saying this? it is not related to the quote at all,

but just your opinion about F2P mechanics, while i was talking about the devs right to defend their reputation...

a right you actually want to take of them...

That was surely an off-topic digression. After all, we are in the off-topic section of the forum, so I found nothing criminal in a couple of off-topic lines in an off-topic thread

On 9/11/2018 at 1:59 AM, Skiron said:

but this is still Kinkoids place, a part of their company, their game and their marketing strategy...

(aka advertising, a place where ppl inform themselves about the game)...

and they have the right to defend what they have build up... without any need to explain themselves or their decisions...

so if someone comes to their place, calling them liars or frauds, attacking their reputation and/or leaving bad advertisement,

they have any right to delete whatever they want... that is no censorship, that is common sense...

otherwise it would be a general permission for defamation!

Let me be clear once and for all: I never had, and never will, discuss the right of the devs to do anyhing they wish. As a player in the forum, as I already said, I feel I have the right to comment their actions, and if my comments are negative, I am to express them without insulting. On the matter of what is censorship and what is common sense, that is a social argument that in my opinion involves strictly personal opinions, and anyone would find hard to find two exactly the same. I already gave mine and told above my reactions on responses.

On 9/11/2018 at 5:11 PM, Chthugha said:

You don't have the right to tell anything you want, even if it's just an opinion.
The ones that are still visible have one very big distinction from the others, and that is that they aren't stated as a fact.
As soon as someone starts state things as facts, when they are not true, then you are crossing the line.
When you spread lies about someone/something like this, it's just common libel, which is not allowed.
So yes, I remove everyone of these and some of the borderline cases. 

As I told at the start of this topic, everything I write I consider it valid only for me, and I'm neither trying to convince someone, nor willing to pick a fight. Effectively, this is a thing i forgot to mention in my past posts: unless I should gather enough data to prove what I say, I would never state my ideas and opinions as facts. If anyone in my past posts had the opposite impression, then I give my excuses for the misunderstanding.

On 9/11/2018 at 5:11 PM, Chthugha said:

I'm taking you as victim and I'll find out everything about you that is possible, and then start spreading the rumours about you that you are a pedophile on your work, to your social surroundings, in your city, etc.

You're obviously going to do something about that, because clearly what I am saying is not true, but it can seriously harm your reputation.
Just think about what Elon Musk is now doing with respect to that diver that was part of the rescue team in Thailand.
That diver can sue Musk for libel, and he will most likely win that as well. 

Here i was at a disadvantage, cause in my country there were no popular reports of this Elon Musk declarations, and I had to go around the net to understand. I didn't have much time to think on the matter, but my base point of view is that Musk behavior and declarations deserves all the s**t that could come to him. I don't know neither if there is a correct, alternative translation, nor if this proverb in my country is popular elsewhere, but i find it perfect in this case: "The one who causes his illness has to weep himself"

[Chthugha]

24 minutes ago, Observer_X said:

As I told at the start of this topic, everything I write I consider it valid only for me, and I'm neither trying to convince someone, nor willing to pick a fight. Effectively, this is a thing i forgot to mention in my past posts: unless I should gather enough data to prove what I say, I would never state my ideas and opinions as facts. If anyone in my past posts had the opposite impression, then I give my excuses for the misunderstanding.

Here i was at a disadvantage, cause in my country there were no popular reports of this Elon Musk declarations, and I had to go around the net to understand. I didn't have much time to think on the matter, but my base point of view is that Musk behavior and declarations deserves all the s**t that could come to him. I don't know neither if there is a correct, alternative translation, nor if this proverb in my country is popular elsewhere, but i find it perfect in this case: "The one who causes his illness has to weep himself"

I just made myself more clear to you here.
There are things that are just out of order, so that's when I step in and the "free speech" is no longer applying.
I've never said you are doing it though.

[Skiron]

@Observer_X

I simply state my personal opinion about my experience in this thread, and in doing this, believe it or not, I don't have any offensive intent.

 

but to be completely honest with you:

you leave the bittersweet taste of a man behind, who has become so stubborn about being right, that you don´t consider anymore you could be wrong...

 

and if these are examples of your counter-arguments...

14 hours ago, Observer_X said:

That said, it may appear as a lawyer statement of convenience, but I consider there is difference, small as it may be, between not believing what a person say, and calling the same person a liar.

...

That was surely an off-topic digression. After all, we are in the off-topic section of the forum, so I found nothing criminal in a couple of off-topic lines in an off-topic thread

...then i´m out of this discussion...

 

last but not least:

a) it doesnt matter if you state something as an personal opinion without offensive intents, it still might end up as an insult!

b) if you state you don´t believe someone, you might have not called him a liar to his face, but reading between the lines: you believe he is one.

[Observer_X]

17 hours ago, Chthugha said:

I just made myself more clear to you here.
There are things that are just out of order, so that's when I step in and the "free speech" is no longer applying.
I've never said you are doing it though.

Thanks for the clarification, but, I assure you, that was not necessary. The quoting was only to introduce that I forgot to include in my past posts that I don't state things as facts, and not for accusing you or anyone else of anything. If I made you think different, then I am sorry.

3 hours ago, Skiron said:

@Observer_X

I simply state my personal opinion about my experience in this thread, and in doing this, believe it or not, I don't have any offensive intent.

 

but to be completely honest with you:

you leave the bittersweet taste of a man behind, who has become so stubborn about being right, that you don´t consider anymore you could be wrong...

I never have denied I am deep attached to my opinions. In the previous post, I think I have made cristalline that the only claim I have is that anything I say is valid for me, I state what I state simply because I wish to do it, and (as I said) while I am happy for any positive reactions I won't lose sleep for any negative, although I may report answers that break moderator rules. It should be obvious that what I state is right for me (as far as I know, every person does this), and I think I have no right to blame or avoid a person that disagrees with me. Unless we are treating a wide concept that according to common knowledge has only an objective interpretation, I would never have the claim to be one with the knowledge about who or what is right or wrong.

6 hours ago, Skiron said:

and if these are examples of your counter-arguments...

...then i´m out of this discussion...

Those were simply my answers to your previous posts, not tries to counter your arguments. Here you gave me the impression you treat every thread you take part in as a battle of words and wits, where a winner and a loser have to be found, and where people answers that are not up to your expectations make those people losers. For me, a forum thread is not like this, and if this makes me a loser in your eyes, this means I'm happy of your decision to get out.

6 hours ago, Skiron said:

last but not least:

a) it doesnt matter if you state something as an personal opinion without offensive intents, it still might end up as an insult!

In my opinion, you forgot to consider one important aspect: with any probability, it still end up as an insult only if you treat with intolerant or intransigent people (or the like), and even out of this case, it may happen only if the statement is made with malicious intent and behaviour. And this is not my style: trust me when I say that if I really want to insult someone, I am quite open, and I will hardly risk to have a forum post deleted to do it.

6 hours ago, Skiron said:

b) if you state you don´t believe someone, you might have not called him a liar to his face, but reading between the lines: you believe he is one.

This is the point where I hope to not get out of my lines. This one included, in the entire forum up to now i have written nine posts, half of them in this thread. I don't know if you deem so many posts enough to give a so deep judgement about what one means between the lines, but I don't. If my memory serves me right, in the past the moderators already warned you to not mount on a pedestal and give judgements, which is exactly what I think you have done with this last statement. I'm not a moderator and I am not in the position neither to give warnings, nor to judge you, but I ask you to start to give similar judgements on me when we will reach a time when you will really know me, posed a time like that is ever destined to come.

[Skiron]

19 hours ago, Observer_X said:

I never have denied I am deep attached to my opinions. In the previous post, I think I have made cristalline that the only claim I have is that anything I say is valid for me, I state what I state simply because I wish to do it, and (as I said) while I am happy for any positive reactions I won't lose sleep for any negative, although I may report answers that break moderator rules. It should be obvious that what I state is right for me (as far as I know, every person does this), and I think I have no right to blame or avoid a person that disagrees with me. Unless we are treating a wide concept that according to common knowledge has only an objective interpretation, I would never have the claim to be one with the knowledge about who or what is right or wrong.

fair enough...

19 hours ago, Observer_X said:

Those were simply my answers to your previous posts, not tries to counter your arguments. Here you gave me the impression you treat every thread you take part in as a battle of words and wits, where a winner and a loser have to be found, and where people answers that are not up to your expectations make those people losers. For me, a forum thread is not like this, and if this makes me a loser in your eyes, this means I'm happy of your decision to get out.

in my eyes a discussion is not about winning or losing, it is - in best case - aiming for a common point both sides can agree, or at least rest on.

if my wording of a "counter" was to hard in this situation, i blame my english...

but still your answers were not towards such a goal... i simply thought you would discuss on that level...

19 hours ago, Observer_X said:

In my opinion, you forgot to consider one important aspect: with any probability, it still end up as an insult only if you treat with intolerant or intransigent people (or the like), and even out of this case, it may happen only if the statement is made with malicious intent and behaviour. And this is not my style: trust me when I say that if I really want to insult someone, I am quite open, and I will hardly risk to have a forum post deleted to do it.

i honestly do believe that you don´t want to insult anybody!

but i want to please you to consider, that a personal opinion still can be insulting. and people don´t have to be intolerant in general to feel insulted by something.

different people draw different lines not to cross and even it is not someone´s intention, he might cross a line someone else has drawn...

19 hours ago, Observer_X said:

This is the point where I hope to not get out of my lines. This one included, in the entire forum up to now i have written nine posts, half of them in this thread. I don't know if you deem so many posts enough to give a so deep judgement about what one means between the lines, but I don't. If my memory serves me right, in the past the moderators already warned you to not mount on a pedestal and give judgements, which is exactly what I think you have done with this last statement. I'm not a moderator and I am not in the position neither to give warnings, nor to judge you, but I ask you to start to give similar judgements on me when we will reach a time when you will really know me, posed a time like that is ever destined to come.

no, that wasnt me, but someone with the same icon... for the sake of peace i will ignore that...

so back to the point: this is generally spoken, not exactly about you...

if someone doesnt believe another one, it has to mean he doesnt believe he is saying the truth, which has to mean he believes he is a liar...

that´s a given fact and lawyer-bending-the-rules-like arguments don´t change that...

 

but i fear we start running in circles...

maybe it is better we both agree we won´t reach a common point to agree on...

Edited September 15, 2018 by Skiron

[Observer_X]

23 minutes ago, Skiron said:

if someone doesnt believe another one, it has to mean he doesnt believe he is saying the truth, which has to mean he believes he is a liar...

that´s a given fact and lawyer-bending-the-rules-like arguments don´t change that...

Up to now I think I have made clear already that I disagree with you that this is a given fact, so...

25 minutes ago, Skiron said:

but i fear we start running in circles...

maybe it is better we both agree we won´t reach a common point to agree on...

i think you are right here, at least on this arguments it is unlikely we will ever have convergent opinons. Maybe on other arguments, who knows, no one can see the future (except comics heroes )

Don't know about you, but the fact that we agree that we will not agree seems like lines from a comedy sketch...