Funny arithmetic

[Салерион]

During the next smoke break ... interesting question arose in my sick imagination.

@Kinkoid

All numbers are taken abstractly, just for example.

base_value + percentage_bonus_from_one_sourse + percentage_bonus_from_second_sourse = X

100 + 100% + 100% =. How much will it total?

There are two possible answers. "300" and "400".
One correct from the point of view of mathematics, logic and developers of clickers at the level of CH.
The second one contradicts the logic, it is incorrect from a mathematical point of view, but the only one that is correct from the point of view of developers like Hooligapps with their FT.

[Ago]

Just enjoy the hentai bro

[Салерион]

2 hours ago, Ago said:

Just enjoy the hentai bro

"Just enjoy the hentai" - I can do it on several dozen sites, more than 10 in my bookmarks. Anime, comics, and with a normal translation in my native language, and absolutely free.

First of all it is a game. And in games from the "clicker" line - the main thing is mathematics. Do not hentai. Not beautiful or exciting pictures. Namely math game engine. And the pictures - just a nice addition. The bonus, which favorably distinguishes the game from the rest of the games.

 

[Салерион]

If suddenly someone did not understand the essence of the first message of the topic ... Although why "if" ...

I apologize in advance for any inaccuracies in the wording or definitions. Google and his electronic translator are to blame for everything.

Quote

When adding: changing the sequence of the addend numbers does not change the value of the sum.

When multiplying: changing the sequence of multiplied numbers will not change the result.

Primary school, 2-3 year of study, Arithmetic.

BUT

How will we count it?

Correct solution: base_value + numeric_bonus + percentage_bonus

Wrong solution: base_value + percentage_bonus + numeric bonus

And in these two solutions, we will have a different total value.

For example... base value 100, numeric bonus 750 and percentage bonus 1500%.

100 + 750 + 1500% = 13600

100 + 1500% + 750 = 2350

WHY?

Quote

X + Y% = X * (1+Y/100)    or = X + X * Y / 100

Primary school, 4-5 years of study, Algebra.

Those... mathematical operations with percentage values are not only summation, but also multiplication. And when in one mathematical formula there is both, addition and multiplication, the sequence of numbers matters.

 

And now let's add to the simple task from the first message a new one. A little harder.

Good perk. Nice numbers.  Increase profits X3!

Attention! Question:

By what percentage "REALLY" will increase the player's profit?

 

 

And if with this items?

 

And if each of this items has lvl 100?

So again: By what percentage "REALLY" will increase the player's profit?

 

And if someone still does not understand the essence of these mathematical tasks. And the reason why I wrote them here ...
But wait for a response from the developers. If he will, of course.

[Салерион]

By the way. Once I talked with the developers of the Hooligapps about this, too. Very funny was the correspondence.

And caused a persistent feeling of deja vu.

 

Timing 04:40-04:50.

- What stoping you for duing this?

- Geometry!

- Just ignored.

[Ago]

                                                                                                                                            CHILL

 

                                                                                                      &                             

 

                                                                               E N J O Y   T H E      H E N T A I 

 

 

Nice arguments tho, sadly i'm not opening HH and HC to annoy myself with arithmetic 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Ago

[Салерион]

21 minutes ago, Ago said:

Nice arguments tho, sadly i'm not opening HH and HC to annoy myself with arithmetic 

In your case, it was so obvious. You're repeating yourself. And I already answered you above:

 

[Chip5]

I did write a whole page about the balance of numbers and such, but deleted it cause in the end, it's pointless, getting to the last girl is ridiculously easy and from this point onward you only need to wait for affection, feels like HH all over again rather than a new game.

[Салерион]

3 minutes ago, Chip5 said:

I did write a whole page about the balance of numbers and such, but deleted it cause in the end, it's pointless, getting to the last girl is ridiculously easy and from this point onward you only need to wait for affection, feels like HH all over again rather than a new game.

For such sacral concepts as "holy balance" - I do not even try to wipe. At least right now. I raised this question for another reason.

A small amount of content - well, this thing is gainable.

Blocked increasing of attraction for non-donators... in some ways the right step (they also want to eat). If gaming stats and abilities did not depend on the opening of hearts. And they depend. "A lot time wait or paid" in line of opening pics and another non-gameplay features - it's right. "A lot time wait or paid" in line of opening skills - it's directly advert "it's not free to play game, it's pay to win game". In F2P game must be "a lot time play or paid". But this discussion is not for this topic.

This topic is about the fact that the descriptions should match the game mechanics. And game mechanics should not contradict common sense and mathematics.

[Chip5]

If it is so then I think they made it pretty distinct that some bonuses are additive and some others are actual multipliers, even named "multiplier".

Also I do not completely agree I feel like in clicker games you have to at least give the illusion that playing the game gets you moving forward even by a tiny amount, the affection mechanic is so unrelated to the rest of the game that it feels more like HH instead which is defeating the purpose, might as well call it HH2.

I'll dwelve a deep deeper to explain my point of view.

Yes the shop which you can get bonuses from by either waiting for daily ones or purchasing ones is actually a healthy mechanic and I could see instances where you absolutely have to either wait or pay for them.

But the bonuses you get from the girls are so weak compared to those or the crafted charm that you couldn't care less about them in order to push forward which makes getting more affection almost unrelated apart from getting to the hentai scenes which is basically playing another version of HH. I honestly think that if your idea is to create something new and refreshing then it is a flawed design.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Chip5

[Салерион]

5 minutes ago, Chip5 said:

If it is so then I think they made it pretty distinct that some bonuses are additive and some others are actual multipliers, even named "multiplier".

Yes. But in this situation they must wrote in descriptions "+% from base value" or "+% from starter value", but not "+%" (for example - look on achievents bonus from restarts in CH). Bcs "+%" mean +% to current value. And if percentage bonuses coming from different sources must calculate (base_value + %_from_1st_sourse) + %_from_another_sourse. If i have 1k DPS and have bonus +200% DPS, i'm in result have 3K DPS. And if after this i see new bonus from another source +100% dps - So after gain this bonus i must have 6k DPS. Not 4k. Or on both bonuses must present correct description. "+100(200)% from base DPS".

Right now i can only suppose what formula looks like that:

(starter_value + numeric_bonus_from_girl_lvl) * (1 + (perc_bon1+perc_bon2+...+perc_bonX) / 100) * mult_bon1 * mult_bon2 * ... * mult_bonX = current_value

And if my supposition is right - so in game need or fix descriptions or write in_game_help_page where write what they mean by the current incorrect formulations.

Also partially or completely useless sources, like perk with +200%, wich in fact will give profit 0,0X% or even less.

[Chip5]

I felt like the actual system was pretty self explanatory and I personnaly didn't get confused. Also would make the multipliers of barely 1.1 completely trivial if all other bonuses weren't just additive.

I agree on the formula apart from the first term where you forgot to mention the perk bonus values but once again, trivial.

[Салерион]

19 minutes ago, Chip5 said:

I felt like the actual system was pretty self explanatory and I personnaly didn't get confused. Also would make the multipliers of barely 1.1 completely trivial if all other bonuses weren't just additive.

I agree on the formula apart from the first term where you forgot to mention the perk bonus values but once again, trivial.

I also figured out, it seems. Just instead of reading "as is", you have to think, and how do they imagine it to themselves. It is good that after communicating with the Hooligapps, I had an understanding of how distorted the perception of mathematical rules can be. It turns out that mathematics can be used not only "as is", but also "and I see it that way".

"7 parallel red lines, 2 of them are in blue colors and three intersect. And one in the form of a kitten!" Yeah.

 

About perks i'm wrote in my formula... and seems like right:

 

Perk have percentage bonus so adding to another percentage bonuses. In my formula it's in middle.

Also... In perk descriprion wrote +250%. In fact now his give +5,95%. Tomorrow will be less. Even in an hour it will be less. And this, for the sake of simplicity, I now ignore small bonuses against classes, bosses, etc.

[Fern109]

I do agree with him. we are not playing a Beta game just to sit there and watch the hentai but also to help pointing out major bugs and system failure coverage. 

I tried out to achieve the same calculating and pretty sure I figured out that your formula is right. If we simplify this so we can take a better look: it would be:

Main Click Power *( (Click Power Bonuses + Click Power Type bonus)/100) 

So let's see it in a small example, with 1 girl in level 1:

for Main Click Power

Base Girl Power: 200  / so we have Main Click Power = 200

Now, let's say that I have +400% bonus for my click power and +100% bonus against the current Type of enemy

tat would make Click Power Bonus = 400% and Click Power Type = 100%

which would give us: 200* [(400+100)/100] = 200*5 = 1.000

so it makes for a MULTIPLICATIVE BONUS, not and ADDICTION BONUS

and yeah, the games messes pretty bad with arimethic by putting a + (PLUS) sign everywhere including the base stats in the info table

If this were to be an addiction to the main stat, that would make the formula go:

MAIN STAT = 200 + THE PERCENTAGE BONUS = 200* [(400+100)/100] = 200*5 = 1.000

which would be : 200 + 1.000 = 1.200 Total Click Power

Mathemathically speaking there is huge difference between them. specially when we reach the Dodecabillion numbers such as A9 and so on.

Clicker games is all about MATH

so they HAVE to make it understandable, and not only that... they need to make their math actually USE MATH, and not putting  Add signs were you have to multiply and so on.

[Fern109]

But as it is right now, it's bad for the players. cause we're put in a disadvantage by living in a mist of ignorance.

We don't know for sure:

1) If the Multipliers of the items go to the Base Stat or to the Total Stat

2) Were the multiplier for our Money gains enters

3) We don't know our specific bonus against each type in a clear way. 

4) the actual stats of the girls are pretty much hidden in their Info tabs

5) The effect on stats of rising their affection outside of the perk

and so on. there are lots of info about this math that are pretty much essed up, or using the "we will not tell you" strategy that they use in HH, which do not work for a Math game like a clicker

 

[Салерион]

19 minutes ago, Fern109 said:

using the "we will not tell you" strategy that they use in HH, which do not work for a Math game like a clicker

Correction: in normal clickers don't work. In FT, where all math coming to "pay or go out" - the strategy of keeping silence works very well. And that is why it is impossible to play it. bcs all key multiplicators can be obtained only for donat (starting from a certain stage of progress). And all another bonuses in his formula - they are calculated so "over anus" that you can increase them, you can not increase. Progress you still will not get even hundreds of hours of play. Abilities, achievements - which give a real increase of + 0,000x%. Due to the fact that in the formula they stand as one small number in a whole bunch of large numbers that are added together. Although each of these numbers should be a multiplier.

You can’t imagine how hard it was for me to get at least some information from them about their “mathematics”. And from what they told me - my hair stood on end. And not only on the head.

[Chip5]

Il y a 2 heures, Салерион a dit :

Perk have percentage bonus so adding to another percentage bonuses. In my formula it's in middle.

I will once again just rewrite what I already did write, you forgot the perks in the FIRST term as some perks do actually modify your click value by a sheer number, vanessa's first perk for example. It obviously can't be treated in the second term cause well yeh you treat it as percentage and it should not.

Il y a 2 heures, Fern109 a dit :

Main Click Power *( (Click Power Bonuses + Click Power Type bonus)/100) 

 

so it makes for a MULTIPLICATIVE BONUS, not and ADDICTION BONUS

 

First, you forgot the clicks opposed to the idle mechanic have also a sheer type specific click stat

Second, I was obviously meaning that the % are added and do not multiply so ADDITIVE mechanic 

a MULTIPLICATIVE one would be 

combined sheer numerical stat * normal power bonuses * power type bonuses

and absolutely not the one you are describing.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Chip5

[Fern109]

57 minutes ago, Chip5 said:

First, you forgot the clicks opposed to the idle mechanic have also a sheer type specific click stat

I did not forgot, I was only determining The Click Stat. Both Idle and Click are independent to each other but goes by the same logic formula of having a main stat and their bonuses (be it from crafts, perks, level up or so on), so as I said I was simplifying so we could se the calculation with small usual numbers, there was no need for me to calculate both Idle and Click since they are independent and have the same logic.

59 minutes ago, Chip5 said:

Second, I was obviously meaning that the % are added and do not multiply so ADDITIVE mechanic 

a MULTIPLICATIVE one would be 

combined sheer numerical stat * normal power bonuses * power type bonuses

and absolutely not the one you are describing.

And I actually have to disagree, as I said before this would be MULTIPLICATIVE:

 

3 hours ago, Fern109 said:

which would give us: 200* [(400+100)/100] = 200*5 = 1.000

so it makes for a MULTIPLICATIVE BONUS, not and ADDICTION BONUS

And that one is the ADDITIVE

 

3 hours ago, Fern109 said:

 

MAIN STAT = 200 + THE PERCENTAGE BONUS = 200* [(400+100)/100] = 200*5 = 1.000

which would be : 200 + 1.000 = 1.200 Total Click Power

The one that most correspond to the in game math right now is the multiplicative one, wich actually gives less than the additive one. but well... that not the real point in here. we're not here to try discussing who is right or wrong, we're just pointing that the math should be more clear. since right now it's not. 

[jrg7777]

I don't understand math at all and this is all beyond me.  What I want to know is if these numbers are good or bad for the player.

Should the math mean I'm getting more?  Or is the math skewed so that I get more without realizing it?

[Салерион]

Once again I emphasize that the bonuses to the same parameter (no matter which one), received from different sources, should affect not only the base value, but also each other. Unless otherwise indicated.

The calculation of percentage bonuses is multiplication.

In normal clickers, they indicate "+5; 10; 20; 25; 50; 75; 100; 150%" - because for a person far from mathematics, this is more understandable than the multiplier "x1.05; 1.1; 1.2 ; 1.25; 1.5; 1.75; 2; 2.5 ".

In normal clickers, the term "multiplier" is used to highlight permanent bonuses. Which work always. Have a constant fixed value. And provide a significant increase in the parameter. x2; 3; 5 ... But not "multiplier 1.05". In the latter case, write "+ 5%".

[Салерион]

@Kinkoid In the above formulas there is no "/ 100" after the parentheses with the summation of percentage bonuses. This is what immediately caught my eye. I will look at these formulas more thoughtfully later when I finish my IRL affairs.

[0Henzoo0]

[Салерион]

@Kinkoid

What you recognize is that the math of the game needs to be rewritten. The fact that you made public, albeit not entirely accurate, formulas. It is encouraging. Probably. Because we not known how and in which direction you will make changes.

I would like to hear the official position on a number of questions. Specifically for the math game. And on issues related to game mechanics. Current and prospective.

1) "Once again I emphasize that the bonuses to the same parameter (no matter which one), received from different sources, should affect not only the base value, but also each other. Unless otherwise indicated." Because otherwise many bonuses will be useless. Or useful only in some short period of progress of the player.

- What is the official position on this question? After the upcoming balancing.

2) The current system of gaining hearts. "Wait or pay."  Where it concerns access to hentai content - it is completely correct. But for the time being, the “wait or pay” restriction also works for most game mechanics. Active abilities, perks - now it's all subject to this rule (fact that active abilities and perks are now useless - it is another question). At the same time, access to game mechanics should be tied not to calendar time, but to productive farm time. Those, access to the elements of game mechanics must obey the restriction of "farming or pay" not "wait".

- What is the official position on this question? After the upcoming balancing.

3) Performance. The current visual component requires so many system resources that they do not remain in mathematics. On "weak" and "medium" computers.

- Will there be any changes on this question?

4) You place great emphasis on players, who do not understand which game they are playing. This is logical, they will bring you the most profit. But is the expansion of useful functionality planned for other players? For players, who know that when they play clicker, there is no time to click on anything other than the level-up buttons. I mean, first of all, the introduction of a full IDLE-mode and related stats and bonuses.

5) At the moment is craft artifacts totally dependent on RNG? And if so, will it be revised? At least the way it is done in the same CH with the Ancients. When the player is not just given a fully randome result, they offer a choice of one of several. And if among them there is no normal - you can change the pool for a small price.

 

There are a number of minor questions about the upcoming game elements, such as achievements and other pleasant things. But at the moment it’s too early to talk about it.

[qwaszx167943]

4 hours ago, Салерион said:

1) "Once again I emphasize that the bonuses to the same parameter (no matter which one), received from different sources, should affect not only the base value, but also each other. Unless otherwise indicated." Because otherwise many bonuses will be useless. Or useful only in some short period of progress of the player.

I see two issues with how percentage bonuses are multiplied in the posted formulas:

One one hand I disagree with different sources always multiply each other (with current balancing), that is, for example

Total Excitement (on click) = (BaseExcitementOnClick + AllExcitementOnClickFlat + ClassExcitementOnClickFlat + ifBOSS_BossExcitementFlatBonus + ifBOSS_ClassBossExcitementFlatBonus) * (1 + AllExcitementOnClickPercentage) * (1 + ClassExcitementOnClickPercentage) * (1 * ifBOSS_BossExcitementPercentageBonus) * (1 + ifBOSS_ClassBossExcitementPercentageBonus) * (OnClickMultiplier + ...NthOnClickMultiplier)

, which seems to be your desired result. This would rise the damage, quickening the progress towards the end even more, about which you remarked in some other posts.

On the other side, some sources are indeed different. Bonuses from crafts/charms are different from harem girls' perks. Currently, it can't be even said they are in the same category, they are the same.

For example, Mizuki's first perk is "click E! +200%", I have the charm Shamanic Finger Tingler at level 57 "Click E! +4275%". The total, as displayed in the Info window, is "+4.47K%" (rounded). That means the perk's bonus is completely overshadowed by charm's bonus.

Thus, my recommendation for the next balancing work is to keep charms' bonuses in the same category, but girls' perks in the separate category (and multiply them), i.e. something like

Total Excitement (on click) = (BaseExcitementOnClick + AllExcitementOnClickFlat + ClassExcitementOnClickFlat + ifBOSS_BossExcitementFlatBonus + ifBOSS_ClassBossExcitementFlatBonus) * (1 + AllExcitementOnClickPercentage + ClassExcitementOnClickPercentage + ifBOSS_BossExcitementPercentageBonus + ifBOSS_ClassBossExcitementPercentageBonus) * (1 + PerkExcitementOnClickPercentageBonus) * (1 + IfBOSS_PerkBossExcitementOnClickPercentageBonus) * (1 + PerkOnClickMultiplier) * (OnClickMultiplier + ...NthOnClickMultiplier)

 

[Салерион]

About p.1

"Once again I emphasize that the bonuses to the same parameter (no matter which one), received from different sources, should affect not only the base value, but also each other. Unless otherwise indicated."

Yes. I really insist that bonuses must be multiplied. If I get a new bonus, which says that against a particular class + 10%. That means against this class I should have 10% more than against the rest. 10% of the current that I see on the screen. And not from some kind of base, which I can only calculate on a calculator.
In order for such bonuses not to be OPs - you must make them sane, and not + 100% from the first level of item and + 100% for each level.

Personally, my opinion. Which relies on common sense and mathematical rules.
That in the final formula the operation "+" (addition) should be used only in the inside of the brackets with the first factor (base value). To add numeric bonuses. Such as a bonus from the level of the girl. Those. (base value + value from the level of the girl) * * * * * * everything else.
Except if the bonus is clearly written on the bonus, it adds to the base value. Then it affects ONLY the base value. But it is still affected by all other bonuses.