The truth about affection changes with the update

[mrttao]

5 minutes ago, Shidou said:

we the wiki editors are easily capable to do math ourselfs. Being earlier does not mean you're it's right nor does it mean everything is stolen or taken

I didn't say it was stolen. Nor did I say that wiki editors are incapable of doing math.

I said that wiki editors need to first figure out stuff, so they discuss it with each other (and others) in a forum and then afterwards they edit it into the wiki. That is, the SAME PEOPLE are both on the forum and on the wiki. The fact you are posting in this thread claiming to be a wiki editor just proved me right on this. Also the fact that I myself also on occasion edit wikis, and before doing so i often discuss things in a forum to hammer out my info.

His argument was that this thread is pointless and we should all just go look it up on the wiki. Which is nonsensical argument because this thread was made 4 days before the wiki edit with the info we are discussing in this thread. And because wiki editors are active participants in this thread (like you)

Edited September 1, 2017 by mrttao

[Greetingz]

1 minute ago, mrttao said:

I didn't say it was stolen. Nor did I say that wiki editors are incapable of doing math.

I said that wiki editors need to first figure out stuff, so they discuss it in a forum and then afterwards they edit it into the wiki. That is, the SAME PEOPLE are both on the forum and on the wiki. The fact you are posting in this thread claiming to be a wiki editor PROVES ME RIGHT. Also the fact that I myself also on occasion edit wikis.

His argument was that this thread is pointless and we should all just go look it up on the wiki. Which is nonsensical argument because this thread was made 4 days before the wiki edit with the info we are discussing in this thread

Just because I replied in this thread means nothing. You're all able to discuss this and as for me "to claim" to be an editor. There are 3 people that are "listed" as main editors by that that site and the devs. The wiki has a cooldown time before we upload stuff ourselfs, as for the delay on the math. It's simple because the lack of information at that point and/or duo a proper format was needed.

[mrttao]

5 minutes ago, Shidou said:

Just because I replied in this thread means nothing. You're all able to discuss this and as for me "to claim" to be an editor. There are 3 people that are "listed" as main editors by that that site and the devs. The wiki has a cooldown time before we upload stuff ourselfs, as for the delay on the math. It's simple because the lack of information at that point and/or duo a proper format was needed.

It is clear that you are arguing not against anything I have said, but against this imaginary twisted thing that exists only in your mind. I can get pale hints of what your imagination concocted but it seems like it is completely detached from reality and what you are actually replying to.

With one sentence you claim that I am wrong about my claim that wiki editors participate in the forum, with the next sentence you state I was right about it / that you are one.

You are apparently imagining that I levied some "criticism" of a "delay in the math/posting", while fully ignoring the fact you are literally replying to the quote of

12 minutes ago, mrttao said:

His argument was that this thread is pointless and we should all just go look it up on the wiki. Which is nonsensical argument because this thread was made 4 days before the wiki edit with the info we are discussing in this thread

 

[Sarkasth]

2 minutes ago, mrttao said:

His argument was that this thread is pointless and we should all just go look it up on the wiki. Which is nonsensical argument because this thread was made 4 days before the wiki edit with the info we are discussing in this thread. And because wiki editors are active participants in this thread (like you)

first of all. nice edit. i laughed when i read the giant "PROVES ME RIGHT" , u should have kept it.^^

Also, that was not "my argument".  The wiki-list was there when i posted 12hours ago. Its a "hey people who check this thread, there is a nice visual list, you may check it out" thing. You want me to recognise that the thread made some math 4 days before the wiki was updated but you dont recognise that this wasnt my first comment in this thread and i wasnt replying to the OP (that is like 1week old and i commented before) but giving a hint to the topic in general.

 

I think a lot of things in this forum are obsolete and unecessary, but i wouldnt need disguise my opinion like that ;).

[mrttao]

20 minutes ago, Sarkasth said:

first of all. nice edit. i laughed when i read the giant "PROVES ME RIGHT" , u should have kept it.^^

some people are triggered by using caps for emphasis and start whining about "shouting". so whenever I catch myself doing so I try to edit it to use italics instead of caps. It  is still there

I argued that wiki updaters use the forum and post on this thread. The fact that 3 minutes afterwards a wiki poster posted here in this thread just proved that point

20 minutes ago, Sarkasth said:

Also, that was not "my argument".  The wiki-list was there when i posted 12hours ago. Its a "hey people who check this thread, there is a nice visual list, you may check it out" thing. You want me to recognise that the thread made some math 4 days before the wiki was updated but you dont recognise that this wasnt my first comment in this thread and i wasnt replying to the OP (that is like 1week old and i commented before) but giving a hint to the topic in general.

I will not argue with you about what your intent was. But I will say if that is what you meant that the phrasing of "just check the wiki, there is [INFO] there", without even quoting anyone (implying a reply to op or everyone in the thread) suggests what I said.

The phrasing you were looking for is "hey, I found some supplementary info on the wiki here [link]"

Edited September 1, 2017 by mrttao

[Greetingz]

1 minute ago, mrttao said:

I argued that wiki updaters use the forum and post on this thread. The fact that 3 minutes afterwards a wiki poster posted here in this thread just proved that point

I am a forum moderator that is active and reading most threads. I simply just have 2 tasks. Nothing ties to me commenting on this thread makes you right.

[Chthugha]

Just curious... What was even the point of these last couple of posts mrttao?

[Hans]

The costs are way too high now. They wanna force you buying kobans!

[mrttao]

18 hours ago, Shidou said:

I am a forum moderator that is active and reading most threads. I simply just have 2 tasks. Nothing ties to me commenting on this thread makes you right.

So... the fact you post in forums and edit wiki... does not prove me right about saying that people who post in the wiki also post in the forums?

18 hours ago, Chthugha said:

Just curious... What was even the point of these last couple of posts mrttao?

Sarkasth made a post that basically says this thread is worthless, if we want info we should go to wiki. (although he later clarified he didn't mean it like that, his original phrasing is still indicating that unintentionally).

I countered argued that this thread is valuable for two reasons.

1. it was made 4 days before the wiki had the relevant info.

2. it is a place where wiki editors can discuss things with each other to hammer the data out.

Shidou took the above to mean that I am accusing the wiki editors of plagiarism instead of being active participants, got triggered, and then pretended to not notice every post where I am clarifying otherwise, while insisting I am an evil evil man who hates wiki editors (also ignoring the part where I said I also edit wikis myself and before doing so tend to discuss things on forums)

Edited September 2, 2017 by mrttao

[Sarkasth]

8 minutes ago, mrttao said:

So... the fact you post in forums and edit wiki... does not prove me right about saying that people who post in the wiki also post in the forums?

whether or not wiki editors use the forum was never the question. The question you brought up was  whether or not they use this thread (or similar ones in this forum) to ask for ur math. They do not, because they are able to do it themselves. Otherwise there would be some kind of "Hey, wiki guys here, we need your help..." thread and you would notice it.... 

 

8 minutes ago, mrttao said:

[rest of your comment where you project your way of reading things into my and maybe other peoples comments]

no. Just no. There is always some creative leeway to read messages, but u simply overdo it.

 

 

[Chthugha]

The thing is, even if you were the first to post it in some kind of message on this forum, then still you wouldn't have been the first with the calculations. The testers on the test server did those before anyone else could've done it (and yes the wiki maintainers were on the test server as well).
The devs are aware of these calculations, so you don't have to worry about it too much.
Either they fix it or they don't. Their decision is not going to change because of your message disappearing.

So now I ask you again; what was the real point of all these messages?

[mrttao]

The problem is that girls take literally years to pay back the cost of upgrading them.

It doesn't matter how many other sources of income there are. If you have a bunch of girls that were already upgraded before the update? good for you, you get money flowing in. If you are a new player you are screwed. expect to make your money from bosses and daily missions because actually trying to profit from the girls is a fools errand.

Years before your "investment" pays itself back is ridiculous and unreasonable. This is not even about the "pay kobans to collect all" button, it's just not a reasonable way to handle in game investments.

If they feel that there is too much money coming in, then there are other ways to balance it

Edited September 5, 2017 by mrttao

[Asherandai]

13 minutes ago, mrttao said:

The problem is that girls take literally years to pay back the cost of upgrading them.

It doesn't matter how many other sources of income there are. If you have a bunch of girls that were already upgraded before the update? good for you, you get money flowing in. If you are a new player you are screwed. expect to make your money from bosses and daily missions because actually trying to profit from the girls is a fools errand.

Years before your "investment" pays itself back is ridiculous and unreasonable. This is not even about the "pay kobans to collect all" button, it's just not a reasonable way to handle in game investments.

If they feel that there is too much money coming in, then there are other ways to balance it

Such as?

any form of balancing results in the same thing. either "takes too long for girls to repay the investment" or "equipment is too expensive" or something else to the same effect. doesn't matter if you increase costs or reduce output, the result is the same.

I'm not saying what we have now is perfect, it isn't and it needs more refining, but honestly i find the phrasing of your complaint to be ridiculous. the point of acquiring lots of girls and upgrading to have their scenes isn't for profit. profit is pointless unless there something to use it for, and in this case its "use" is more girls. so complaining that you can't profit is redundant. do really want to be sitting with millions upon millions in ingame cash without spending it? i think you might be complaining about something else entirely, but thats how you've phrased it, as if you want a ton of useless cash.

[ZenMaster]

28 minutes ago, mrttao said:

The problem is that girls take literally years to pay back the cost of upgrading them.

I definitely see your point here, but why would this be a problem?

So far most of the money I earned was spend on...  upgrading my girls. Yet the reason I upgrade them is not so much to get more automated income, but to increase their specs (and... some of the upgrade sequences & new avatars are pretty cool too). You may not get all your money back, but you still get what you paid for: more powerful girls.

And that can help you defeat more powerful enemies which accounts for more XP and Mojo (at least I think so, right now I usually get around 20 - 24 XP per won battle).

In the end I think this boils down to the question if this is an investment or a purchase. And I think it's a purchase: you pay money and get better stats in return.

28 minutes ago, mrttao said:

If you are a new player you are screwed. expect to make your money from bosses and daily missions because actually trying to profit from the girls is a fools errand.

As said, you have  a point but I also think it's not as bad as you make it out to be. I am a new player and today did I got lucky to get a new girl and I noticed what you're talking about here: it took more effort to get her to level 1 (all my girls have at least a 1 star affection).

But with the right strategy it's perfectly doable. Daily missions, arena battles and boss battles help. Right now my girls get me... 12954,1 per hour which I think isn't all that bad. That's enough money to buy some more (low level) books and gifts which can be invaluable if you want to upgrade your girl but a 100XP or 25 Aff. is way too much for that.

 

[mrttao]

On 9/4/2017 at 8:58 PM, ZenMaster said:

I definitely see your point here, but why would this be a problem?

So far most of the money I earned was spend on...  upgrading my girls. Yet the reason I upgrade them is not so much to get more automated income, but to increase their specs (and... some of the upgrade sequences & new avatars are pretty cool too). You may not get all your money back, but you still get what you paid for: more powerful girls.

And that can help you defeat more powerful enemies which accounts for more XP and Mojo (at least I think so, right now I usually get around 20 - 24 XP per won battle).

In the end I think this boils down to the question if this is an investment or a purchase. And I think it's a purchase: you pay money and get better stats in return.

Ok, that is a fair point. that said, the problem is that your stats are not the sum of your girls, you can only make use of 3 girls at once.

Meaning all the rest are useless. And the order in which you got said girls is extremely important in determining which girls you use

[mrttao]

On 9/4/2017 at 8:44 PM, Asherandai said:

Such as?

Literally ANYTHING ELSE. This is literally the absolute worst way to balance the girls, bar none.

But if you are looking for something more specific. Make the base girl cost higher and don't ramp it up based on the number of girls you own. This also means that there is a form of progression, as extra girls are actually useful.

Quote

any form of balancing results in the same thing

I am sorry, but this is bullshit. Saying balancing is impossible is flat out false as is proven by any of the games who managed to actually get balance right.

Edited September 8, 2017 by mrttao

[Asherandai]

7 hours ago, mrttao said:

Literally ANYTHING ELSE. This is literally the absolute worst way to balance the girls, bar none.

incorrect as proven by your next words.

7 hours ago, mrttao said:

But if you are looking for something more specific. Make the base girl cost higher and don't ramp it up based on the number of girls you own. This also means that there is a form of progression, as extra girls are actually useful.

Literally the worst thing you could do. not only does it make early game that much harder and screw over newer players, but it also doesn't solve anything. the same problem still exists, just slightly later. you clearly have not put any thought into this whatsoever.

7 hours ago, mrttao said:

I am sorry, but this is bullshit. Saying balancing is impossible is flat out false as is proven by any of the games who managed to actually get balance right.

I never said balancing was impossible, once again you accuse me of something i did not say. can't you do anything else? its pathetic.

EVERY balanced game has increasing costs and difficulty. i'm actually wondering if you've ever even played a game before because it doesn't sound like you have.

and since you're so fond of accusing me of things i haven't said: no this game is not balanced YET.

[mrttao]

On 9/8/2017 at 11:18 PM, Asherandai said:

Literally the worst thing you could do. not only does it make early game that much harder and screw over newer players, but it also doesn't solve anything. the same problem still exists, just slightly later. you clearly have not put any thought into this whatsoever.

No, it doesn't screw over early game players because the early game girl income is irrelevant. Your income would come from dark lord fights and missions.

It also allows you to have actual progression where your girls progress from being worthless to being useful. instead of remaining worthless forever and actually getting more and more worthless as time progresses.

On 9/8/2017 at 11:18 PM, Asherandai said:

I never said balancing was impossible

Yes you literally did:

On 9/4/2017 at 8:44 PM, Asherandai said:

any form of balancing results in the same thing.

 

[Asherandai]

5 hours ago, mrttao said:

No, it doesn't screw over early game players because the early game girl income is irrelevant. Your income would come from dark lord fights and missions.

It also allows you to have actual progression where your girls progress from being worthless to being useful. instead of remaining worthless forever and actually getting more and more worthless as time progresses.

Yes you literally did:

 

I'm really getting sick of you people deciding i said something i didn't. honestly its just a pathetic attempt to justify yourselves.

when i said "any form of balancing results in the same thing" i was referring to increasing costs as a game progresses. you literally decided to take a single statement out of context and apply your own meaning to it just so you could dismiss something you couldn't prove false.

as for your so called balancing attempt, it does screw over new players. the cash each boss gives, as well as overall income, should be balanced to the level of the costs at each stage of the game. thats how games maintain a steady pace of level progression, equipment progression, etc. without making it so a lv1 player can buy that endgame sword, or making so it takes months to advance from lv1 to lv2. which is exactly what you are suggesting, to increase the base costs so massively that it would take a new player literally months to get a single upgrade. i find it hilarious that you think this is progression, its not even in the same galaxy as progression. and as i already said, it would not even solve the initial problem. no matter how high you increase the base costs, eventually late game players will be sitting with a massive overflow of cash and nowhere to use it. making late girl upgrades once again instantaneous, which leaves nothing to work for and no reason to play the game for weeks at a time. Your plan would drive away both early and late game players, but you're too arrogant and ignorant to even try thinking it through.

[mrttao]

3 hours ago, Asherandai said:

I'm really getting sick of you people deciding i said something i didn't. honestly its just a pathetic attempt to justify yourselves.

 

Stop saying those things then, because I literally quoted you

3 hours ago, Asherandai said:

when i said "any form of balancing results in the same thing" i was referring to increasing costs as a game progresses

No, and even if you were this is still a nonsensical statement to make. Because it doesn't always happen that way. You are assuming all balancing ATTEMPTS always succeed equally and have identical results. This is objectively false. Sometimes a balancing attempt fails and doesn't do anything of the sorts

In fact, your very own claim that my own suggestion is bad PROVES your above statement wrong. If all balancing ATTEMPTS had equal results then my own suggestion would NOT disadvantage new players like you claim, but instead have "equal results" like you said.

3 hours ago, Asherandai said:

as for your so called balancing attempt, it does screw over new players.

No, it doesn't. New players are actually vastly advantaged by such a thing. I have a new account (since I cannot import my nutaku one) and it shows it clearly that the current method is horrifically punishing to new players who didn't get to level their girls during the v1 days. By getting rid of the massive increase in cost per girl it makes things a lot less painful for them.

3 hours ago, Asherandai said:

the cash each boss gives, as well as overall income, should be balanced to the level of the costs at each stage of the game

It already is, this has nothing to do with the girls. And what do those bosses have to do with the girls not paying for themselves and the suggestion that the girl's income be based on the investment in them? have you even read anything I typed?

3 hours ago, Asherandai said:

without making it so a lv1 player can buy that endgame sword

Have you actually played this game? its called harem heroes, where your weapons are always dropped at your level and come from pachinko. The really good stuff mainly from epic pachinko. There is no using the extra wealth to buy an endgame sword.

Edited September 11, 2017 by mrttao

[Greetingz]

It's all fine and dandy if you people are discussing the stuff the thread is about. But we're not going to insult those said discussing people or push them into a corner. 

[Asherandai]

1 hour ago, mrttao said:

"a load of nonsense and fairy tails"

since you are living in this strange fantasy world that clearly doesn't have any laws of physics or mathematics, and since you can do nothing but invent meaning and ignore what is right in front your face, i'm done here. its pointless even trying when you just go ahead and decide something happened despite the obvious evidence to the contrary.