Orgy Days (25 Dec 2019) -- Discussion

[DvDivXXX]

3 hours ago, Cantrix said:

And can we for fuck's sake STOP with the anal stuff already it's gross...

Well, to each their own, but frankly, out of all the possible kinks and fetishes out there, and out of those that KK actually touched upon, I wouldn't have expected anyone to complain about anal, given how mainstream it is in porn content in general by now. It's not even a niche at this point, I mean. It's impossible to please everybody, and there's no point arguing about sexual preferences anyway, but yeah, anal has been everywhere in porn for decades. There are more niche things that I happen to enjoy and KK didn't do much of, other things I don't like that they did more of than I would have preferred, but overall I think they've been doing a good job of giving folks at least a bit of everything.

Apart from that, I completely agree with your post. Now that it's on the wiki, I've looked at Holiday's other poses and I'm nowhere near as forgiving as Zorba is, on that one. There's no consistency in her design from one drawing to the next, apart from the art quality being super low, and her face being as detailed and as realistic as a basic smiley throughout. Her thighs get at least twice as large in Pose 2 compared to the others, same with her butt in the last pose, her feet are consistently just a vague, incorrect shape with no details, not even toes when she goes barefoot... The poses are awkward, and what little movement there is in the final pose feels forced and unnatural (but not because she goes anal, sorry ^^). Her right arm in particular is just a rookie mistake in that last pose. I agree that the second pose is a better drawing than the others (but also very different in design, to the point that it might have been done by another artist), but it's just an all-around mess. I really hope this was a temporary issue, and that they'll go back to an acceptable art quality in the future.

[Zorba the Geek]

On 12/31/2019 at 8:55 PM, DvDivXXX said:

Well, to each their own, but frankly, out of all the possible kinks and fetishes out there, and out of those that KK actually touched upon, I wouldn't have expected anyone to complain about anal, given how mainstream it is in porn content in general by now. It's not even a niche at this point, I mean. It's impossible to please everybody, and there's no point arguing about sexual preferences anyway, but yeah, anal has been everywhere in porn for decades. There are more niche things that I happen to enjoy and KK didn't do much of, other things I don't like that they did more of than I would have preferred, but overall I think they've been doing a good job of giving folks at least a bit of everything.

Apart from that, I completely agree with your post. Now that it's on the wiki, I've looked at Holiday's other poses and I'm nowhere near as forgiving as Zorba is, on that one. There's no consistency in her design from one drawing to the next, apart from the art quality being super low, and her face being as detailed and as realistic as a basic smiley throughout. Her thighs get at least twice as large in Pose 2 compared to the others, same with her butt in the last pose, her feet are consistently just a vague, incorrect shape with no details, not even toes when she goes barefoot... The poses are awkward, and what little movement there is in the final pose feels forced and unnatural (but not because she goes anal, sorry ^^). Her right arm in particular is just a rookie mistake in that last pose. I agree that the second pose is a better drawing than the others (but also very different in design, to the point that it might have been done by another artist), but it's just an all-around mess. I really hope this was a temporary issue, and that they'll go back to an acceptable art quality in the future.

Would you expect your GF to suck you off straight after your dick has been in her ass?  Mega yuck!  But it does seem to happen.  I would never ask anyone to do this and if I were one of those porn stars this is where I'd draw the line, even if I got fired as a consequence.  Being mainstream now, and the amoral argument of 'everybody's doing it', doesn't make it right - or safe.  If your answer to the first sentence is yes, then I'm at a loss for words.  ME, at a loss for words!?

[Zorba the Geek]

On 12/31/2019 at 11:22 AM, DvDivXXX said:

Well, for me, as a new player, this event was still worth it. I got all 4 of the girls I didn't have (I skipped Holiday, even though technically she's a 3-star Legendary from my class), on top of the cool epic given away from the missions. It was a bit costly compared to the 1st Orgy Days event (I had to make 24 refills vs only 18 for OD 1) but still quite profitable, and I'm glad I was able to catch up on these. Sure, some of the ones that were pachinko exclusive this time around were on my wish-list as well, but I got a nice alternate Agate, alternate Bunny, and 3 Sci-Fi girls I like quite a bit. All from, you know, back when they had actual artists doing the art. So I'm okay.

The main thing that bothered me was having to fight almost exclusively shitty early-game bosses that I've finished long ago, except for Dark Lord, but that didn't last long. That, and between this one and the Epic Days back to back, my koban reserve is below my comfort zone, now. But that's how the cookie crumbles.

I'm sure for 3-year veterans who already had everything available on bosses except for the ugly smiley on Donatien, it wasn't a great event, but that's a bit of a first-world problem, honestly. If you didn't need those girls, that's because you already have them, which is a good thing. Revivals are primarily meant for people who missed out or simply weren't around when the original events happened. It's normal that veterans with huge collections won't benefit from those as much (or, sometimes, at all).

As for drop rates, they were as per usual for revivals. Pretty sweet compared to any other event type.

Yeah, I agree with what you said.  One thing though, for those pissed off about having to return to Dark Lord (say, like me, to try to get Winter Agate - strangely, I missed out on her last time), I was able to switch to Tier II and successfully try for her doppleganger, the mysterious Aghates.  If you try hard enough and long enough you could get DL to lvl 80 then try for the gorgeous Esperance.  You'd have to try for a long time though because from lvl 30 to lvl 80 would take 500 performances - he levels up only every 10th win in Tier II.

With Donatien who held Holiday captive, there was (is) an equally underwhelming girl to try for, Xia.  In both cases, DL or Donatien, I found the drop rate for the event girls to be unaffected by whether I was playing in Tier I or Tier II.  I got Holiday in two accounts (including this one) and have got Xia to 32 and 36 shards so far.  I'm hopeful Xia will reward with better affection upgrades as Holiday did.  My suggestion for the artist would be to make the opening poses of the girls more appealing, if only a little bit more.  I've read so many downers about Holiday (and people won't even mention her name I noticed), but they need to see all her poses and affection scenes before writing her off completely.

[Karyia]

5 minutes ago, Zorba the Geek said:

Yeah, I agree with what you said.  One thing though, for those pissed off about having to return to Dark Lord (say, like me, to try to get Winter Agate - strangely, I missed out on her last time), I was able to switch to Tier II and successfully try for her doppleganger, the mysterious Aghates.  If you try hard enough and long enough you could get DL to lvl 80 then try for the gorgeous Esperance.  You'd have to try for a long time though because from lvl 30 to lvl 80 would take 500 performances - he levels up only every 10th win in Tier II.

With Donatien who held Holiday captive, there was (is) an equally underwhelming girl to try for, Xia.  In both cases, DL or Donatien, I found the drop rate for the event girls to be unaffected by whether I was playing in Tier I or Tier II.  I got Holiday in two accounts (including this one) and have got Xia to 32 and 36 shards so far.  I'm hopeful Xia will reward with better affection upgrades as Holiday did.  My suggestion for the artist would be to make the opening poses of the girls more appealing, if only a little bit more.  I've read so many downers about Holiday (and people won't even mention her name I noticed), but they need to see all her poses and affection scenes before writing her off completely.

Yes, the tiers implementation, at least, brings some compensation for those who have already completed the early game parts long ago. It's a free girl after all. I'm looking forward to see what the remaining bosses will bring. 

I agree. I actually got Selene AND Winter Agate since the tiers came along but was unable to completely seduce Akhates, so she's making herself hard to get 😅 

It'll take a while but I'll keep an open mind about Holiday and what you say about her other poses. But that doesn't change the fact that her initial one is pretty "poor" (to say the least). Being a legendary and the costs that it takes to unlock the rest, it sure is an awful way to motivate us to do it.

[Zorba the Geek]

I know this post follows a quote, but I'm doing it anyway.  After DvDivXXX's post I had a closer look at Holiday and I reluctantly have to agree.  The artwork is a return to the often terrible inconsistencies of old.  If HH could bring back the artist who drew the girls for Xmas 2018, and for Festival and Travel Regine that'd be really great.  I don't know who he/she was, but there was a distinctive pattern that was consistent and identifiable across all these events and girls, with Xmas Hari a particular improvement, not to mention the most incredibly hot version of Madame Louise Carot ever - style, sophistication and sex appeal, including all her affection scenes.

I tend to agree that there is something majorly wrong with the artwork now and this has extended to the tiers girls.  Check out the size of the feet for Xia and Balista in their performance modes ( two stars I think).  They're too small, and their legs are anatomically weird.  Compare these with the comparable (and vastly superior) artwork for Mizuki in her final pose and you'll see what I mean, with fantastic, yet subtly feminine, muscle tone captured, but even with her there are some stuff-ups and anatomical disasters.  Take that dumb pose where she holds her mobile in her foot to take a selfie of her highly aroused pussy and you'll see just how much her hip attached to her leg is all wrong.  The moral of the story is that we could all find instances of terrible artwork (as well as brilliant stuff) throughout the history of HH and it seems that much more care is needed by the respective artists to create a consistently good and credible product that captures (and is faithful to) the personas of the girls represented over time.  Sometimes they have gone back to the drawing board (with Justine, Juliette and Bunny for example), but it seemed to take a long time to implement the necessary changes.

But I do agree that there is something terribly wrong with the new artwork and I believe that, apart from anatomical errors I mentioned, it comes down to a lack of proper tone used to confer the impression of any realistic 3D shape.  Everything looks too flat and cartoonish, not good for a game representing pornography.  If nothing changes over the next few events I would say the artist would be on notice to shape up or ship out.  Still, the Circus event gives us a hope for improvement.  I notice the artist has used the 'viewed from above' technique again with Fortune Teller Carine in her opening pose, but it seems to work better this time because of how her head is aligned with the viewer - a very slight upward tilt.  If he/she can finally pull this off then this is something great for the artists' tool kit to be used in a variety of ways.  I like her outfit too.  The new artist has done some good things - take Melissa's great bod and legs for example in her opening pose, and Selene's legs.  All the same my 'could do better' report card is written.

Maybe HH need a panel of artists to critique one another's work in a constructive way in this age of impossible deadlines.  It's too much for just one artist to achieve and the work needs to be properly signed off before it gets published in the game.

Regarding my comment in anal sex, I was responding to something written that I might've taken out of context.  Sorry about that.

[DvDivXXX]

6 hours ago, Zorba the Geek said:

Regarding my comment in anal sex, I was responding to something written that I might've taken out of context.  Sorry about that.

No problem. I'm honestly not comfortable discussing sexual preferences even here, that's just a bit too personal for me (I probably give hints away here and there, though, and it's not that big a deal either, but yeah). My answer to Cantrix about anal sex wasn't meant to judge them either, I was simply referring to general trends in porn, and pointing out that we shouldn't blame KK for trying to please everybody, or more realistically, to ensure that most players find something to enjoy in their content (as I said, you obviously can't please everybody, especially not for something as vast and subjective as sexual preferences).

Going just a little... deeper (haha) in the topic, while still being careful, I'll add that there are turn-ons and turn-offs you can trigger without even trying, or fail to trigger even if you try. That's just how delicate this equilibrium can be, and I really think Kinkoid have been doing a nice job with this tricky balancing act so far. I'll do my best not to derail the discussion too much (he says in the second paragraph of what seems to be shaping up to be a long post already... ^^), but I'll give a few examples to elaborate on my point.

A decent number of people in past discussions (mostly in the French section of the forum) have complained about the fact that, from a real-life perspective, a lot of what's going on in this fictional universe can come off as, well, rape. That's a very serious real-life issue, and I don't want to ever treat it casually; I completely understand and I'm sorry if some of this game's content hits that trigger for them. I generally perceive it differently, because it's a goofy and clearly imaginary universe based on sexual fantasies and humor, and the way people interact even at a base level in that world would be utter madness in a real-world setting. To me, the story elements aren't meant to be taken any more seriously than those found in mainstream porn movies from the 70s or 80s, back when the porn industry borrowed a lot more from regular fiction than it needed to, and a lot of films felt like a weird patchwork of porn scenes and "comedy" scenes that were often in "so bad, it's good" territory (the "every pizza delivery person is also a prostitute" cliché, and so on). The HH universe also borrows some of the most hilariously unrealistic codes from the Japanese porn culture, like the fact that men are all capable of multiple consecutive ejaculations by default, and that semen is basically an infinite resource. ^^ And having sex with strangers is as normal as saying "hello" in the real world, so the notion of consensual or non-consensual sex doesn't apply very well. Regardless, a few specific scenes here and there made me uncomfortable, despite my suspension of disbelief when I'm following those stories, so again I can relate to that turn-off, and I'm sorry for anyone who got triggered by this aspect of the game (as I'm sure Kinkoid also is, they obviously aim to entertain us, not to hurt anyone's feelings).

Alright, I'll move on to lighter topics for my next examples. Going back to the art style (regardless of art quality), the fact that most of the visual codes in this game evoke old-school US and European comic books much more than your typical Japanese hentai stuff may or may not have been deliberate, and it might be something that makes the game less appealing to some players checking it out because it has Hentai in the name, expecting to get something closer to, say, a game like Shadowverse in terms of art style. In my case, it's one of the major reasons why I got hooked in the first place, because I'm more interested in the former than the latter. It boils down to taste, of course, but I also think that this art style gives the game a distinctive feel and charm compared to most other games you can find on Nutaku and all over the web. I don't think I'm the only one, and that's why I hope they don't go too far into the recent direction (again, besides the fact that a good chunk of the recent art has also been disappointing in quality), because if I was interested in playing with prototypical Pokemon-style anime girls, there are millions of other games I could be playing instead of this one. I look at, say, Fae Marjora, and the art doesn't just bring back memories of the Star Wars franchise, it also (and, in my case, much more importantly) brings back memories of tons of old-fashioned comics I've read, made by teams with a dedicated penciler, inker, and colorist. I really miss the generous ink job in particular in a lot of more recent pictures in the game. That's an approach I hope to see more of in 2020.

Okay, I guess I'll mention one personal preference for this last point (*sighs and blushes*), it's not a huge thing, but it's a big enough aspect of the game's visual style that it's worth discussing a bit. I happen to like feet. The fact that the vast majority of the girls go barefoot in at least some of their images, and that their feet are often enough drawn well, as opposed to tons of other games in which a foot and a shoe are basically the same thing, and they're both a rushed triangle shape anyway, also plays a big part in this game's appeal for me. That's also partly why I can spot mistakes like the two left feet in Alpha&Omega and, unfortunately, a lot of other pictures in the game so easily. I'm looking. Because of that, it's also twice the disappointment for me when I see this kind of mistakes, because that annoys me as someone who enjoys well-crafted art (just like two left hands, or two eyes so far apart that it might as well depict a frog or a fish instead of a humanoid), but it also disappoints me because... well, that just completely kills what's normally a turn-on for me (it's also why I'm not into a character like Lilith for instance, even though she has plenty of other assets: she's never going to scratch my "aww, look at her cute feet" itch, because she doesn't have any ^^). For a somewhat recent example, I'm not a huge fan of Keiko's design and character in general (I don't hate it either, but I'm not super into it), and although the artist who handled her drawings is very good overall, there are some issues (most notably that terrifying deflated balloon replacing her left boob in her final pose), but in her penultimate pose, her bare feet are really, really sweet to look at (it's also just a beautiful drawing in my opinion), and that's enough to redeem her as far as I'm concerned. In contrast, something like Sword Swallower Liu-Yeng in the newest event... brrr, put some shoes back on to hide that bunion right now, please! ^^ Anyway, my point with this is that, whether or not that was intentional on KK's part (and for a number of their artists, it isn't, unfortunately; someone who likes feet would never butcher them the way it's been done in many pictures), it's another example of something that's part of the game's visual identity. It's a positive thing in my case, and probably for a lot of other players (foot fetish isn't quite as widespread as anal as far as porn categories go, but it's the most common fetish statistically, and not really niche either). It's probably a turn-off for some (potential) players as well, and the majority probably doesn't care either way, but it's there and it plays a role.

Other things contribute to defining the game's look and feel, no doubt, whether or not we care for them or even see them. A minority of players have been asking for futa/shemale content time and time again, for instance, and although they have a gay male version of the game that has its own following (with some overlap, from what I've read), neither that nor any kind of bisexual crossover has happened (that I know of, I'm barely about halfway through the adventure, and I haven't seen most affection scenes, obviously) or is likely going to happen, I imagine. Female on male strapon stuff (or tentacles, whatever) shows up here and there, though, which is a somewhat related but distinct niche. Any niche you can think of, whether Kinkoid dabbles in it occasionally, regularly, or never ever, is bound to please some players, turn off others, and leave most indifferent. You really can't please everybody with a game like this, but offering some variety here and there, while staying true to the main elements that the game built its audience upon is the best they can do. It's a fine line, but again I think that's one of Kinkoid's strengths overall.

Wow. I really walked deep into wall of text territory, there. ^^ I didn't expect to, but oh well, I'll blame it on your influence, Zorba.

As for the drop in art quality lately, I was about to comment on the new event, but I'll save this for the dedicated thread Lemus started. I'm glad you see it my way about Holiday, though (sorry if I ruined her for you, but I think Kinkoid really needs to receive that feedback, because she's the perfect example of what they need to avoid moving forward).

Edited January 1, 2020 by DvDivXXX
a few missing words

[Chthugha]

I like that the edit says a few missing words, but for all we know it could be the entire post 😂 also, I always think it's consentual. It's about consent and that's rarely sensual in nature. I have to brush up on some of my words it seems.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Chthugha

[Zorba the Geek]

6 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

No problem. I'm honestly not comfortable discussing sexual preferences even here, that's just a bit too personal for me (I probably give hints away here and there, though, and it's not that big a deal either, but yeah). My answer to Cantrix about anal sex wasn't meant to judge them either, I was simply referring to general trends in porn, and pointing out that we shouldn't blame KK for trying to please everybody, or more realistically, to ensure that most players find something to enjoy in their content (as I said, you obviously can't please everybody, especially not for something as vast and subjective as sexual preferences).

Going just a little... deeper (haha) in the topic, while still being careful, I'll add that there are turn-ons and turn-offs you can trigger without even trying, or fail to trigger even if you try. That's just how delicate this equilibrium can be, and I really think Kinkoid have been doing a nice job with this tricky balancing act so far. I'll do my best not to derail the discussion too much (he says in the second paragraph of what seems to be shaping up to be a long post already... ^^), but I'll give a few examples to elaborate on my point.

A decent number of people in past discussions (mostly in the French section of the forum) have complained about the fact that, from a real-life perspective, a lot of what's going on in this fictional universe can come off as, well, rape. That's a very serious real-life issue, and I don't want to ever treat it casually; I completely understand and I'm sorry if some of this game's content hits that trigger for them. I generally perceive it differently, because it's a goofy and clearly imaginary universe based on sexual fantasies and humor, and the way people interact even at a base level in that world would be utter madness in a real-world setting. To me, the story elements aren't meant to be taken any more seriously than those found in mainstream porn movies from the 70s or 80s, back when the porn industry borrowed a lot more from regular fiction than it needed to, and a lot of films felt like a weird patchwork of porn scenes and "comedy" scenes that were often in "so bad, it's good" territory (the "every pizza delivery person is also a prostitute" cliché, and so on). The HH universe also borrows some of the most hilariously unrealistic codes from the Japanese porn culture, like the fact that men are all capable of multiple consecutive ejaculations by default, and that semen is basically an infinite resource. ^^ And having sex with strangers is as normal as saying "hello" in the real world, so the notion of consensual or non-consensual sex doesn't apply very well. Regardless, a few specific scenes here and there made me uncomfortable, despite my suspension of disbelief when I'm following those stories, so again I can relate to that turn-off, and I'm sorry for anyone who got triggered by this aspect of the game (as I'm sure Kinkoid also is, they obviously aim to entertain us, not to hurt anyone's feelings).

Alright, I'll move on to lighter topics for my next examples. Going back to the art style (regardless of art quality), the fact that most of the visual codes in this game evoke old-school US and European comic books much more than your typical Japanese hentai stuff may or may not have been deliberate, and it might be something that makes the game less appealing to some players checking it out because it has Hentai in the name, expecting to get something closer to, say, a game like Shadowverse in terms of art style. In my case, it's one of the major reasons why I got hooked in the first place, because I'm more interested in the former than the latter. It boils down to taste, of course, but I also think that this art style gives the game a distinctive feel and charm compared to most other games you can find on Nutaku and all over the web. I don't think I'm the only one, and that's why I hope they don't go too far into the recent direction (again, besides the fact that a good chunk of the recent art has also been disappointing in quality), because if I was interested in playing with prototypical Pokemon-style anime girls, there are millions of other games I could be playing instead of this one. I look at, say, Fae Marjora, and the art doesn't just bring back memories of the Star Wars franchise, it also (and, in my case, much more importantly) brings back memories of tons of old-fashioned comics I've read, made by teams with a dedicated penciler, inker, and colorist. I really miss the generous ink job in particular in a lot of more recent pictures in the game. That's an approach I hope to see more of in 2020.

Okay, I guess I'll mention one personal preference for this last point (*sighs and blushes*), it's not a huge thing, but it's a big enough aspect of the game's visual style that it's worth discussing a bit. I happen to like feet. The fact that the vast majority of the girls go barefoot in at least some of their images, and that their feet are often enough drawn well, as opposed to tons of other games in which a foot and a shoe are basically the same thing, and they're both a rushed triangle shape anyway, also plays a big part in this game's appeal for me. That's also partly why I can spot mistakes like the two left feet in Alpha&Omega and, unfortunately, a lot of other pictures in the game so easily. I'm looking. Because of that, it's also twice the disappointment for me when I see this kind of mistakes, because that annoys me as someone who enjoys well-crafted art (just like two left hands, or two eyes so far apart that it might as well depict a frog or a fish instead of a humanoid), but it also disappoints me because... well, that just completely kills what's normally a turn-on for me (it's also why I'm not into a character like Lilith for instance, even though she has plenty of other assets: she's never going to scratch my "aww, look at her cute feet" itch, because she doesn't have any ^^). For a somewhat recent example, I'm not a huge fan of Keiko's design and character in general (I don't hate it either, but I'm not super into it), and although the artist who handled her drawings is very good overall, there are some issues (most notably that terrifying deflated balloon replacing her left boob in her final pose), but in her penultimate pose, her bare feet are really, really sweet to look at (it's also just a beautiful drawing in my opinion), and that's enough to redeem her as far as I'm concerned. In contrast, something like Sword Swallower Liu-Yeng in the newest event... brrr, put some shoes back on to hide that bunion right now, please! ^^ Anyway, my point with this is that, whether or not that was intentional on KK's part (and for a number of their artists, it isn't, unfortunately; someone who likes feet would never butcher them the way it's been done in many pictures), it's another example of something that's part of the game's visual identity. It's a positive thing in my case, and probably for a lot of other players (foot fetish isn't quite as widespread as anal as far as porn categories go, but it's the most common fetish statistically, and not really niche either). It's probably a turn-off for some (potential) players as well, and the majority probably doesn't care either way, but it's there and it plays a role.

Other things contribute to defining the game's look and feel, no doubt, whether or not we care for them or even see them. A minority of players have been asking for futa/shemale content time and time again, for instance, and although they have a gay male version of the game that has its own following (with some overlap, from what I've read), neither that nor any kind of bisexual crossover has happened (that I know of, I'm barely about halfway through the adventure, and I haven't seen most affection scenes, obviously) or is likely going to happen, I imagine. Female on male strapon stuff (or tentacles, whatever) shows up here and there, though, which is a somewhat related but distinct niche. Any niche you can think of, whether Kinkoid dabbles in it occasionally, regularly, or never ever, is bound to please some players, turn off others, and leave most indifferent. You really can't please everybody with a game like this, but offering some variety here and there, while staying true to the main elements that the game built its audience upon is the best they can do. It's a fine line, but again I think that's one of Kinkoid's strengths overall.

Wow. I really walked deep into wall of text territory, there. ^^ I didn't expect to, but oh well, I'll blame it on your influence, Zorba.

As for the drop in art quality lately, I was about to comment on the new event, but I'll save this for the dedicated thread Lemus started. I'm glad you see it my way about Holiday, though (sorry if I ruined her for you, but I think Kinkoid really needs to receive that feedback, because she's the perfect example of what they need to avoid moving forward).

Aww, okay!  You really have outdone me there and if I'm to blame then so be it.  Haha.  I liked your post alot, and I wish I could've used two icons at once: one for 'like' and one for 'haha'.  I laughed because you made a joke at my expense and because I agree with it.  I AM somewhat verbose.  I admit it.

Me?  I like feet too, but I'm concerned about their passage across the ground when it comes to sucking toes. Lol.  It really bugged me to see the poor attempts at minimising the existence of feet by the current artist for (say) Balista and the two star pose of Xia (dreadful artwork!).  And there are many other examples - each associated with those poor attempts at portraying distorted perspective.  As I have said, though, I do hold my judgement on Fortune Teller Carine until I have a chance to look at her more closely.  This top-down perspective does seem to work in her case, but I can't be sure.  After I jumped in a bit fast in my support for Holiday's artwork, and read your very compelling arguments against it, I decided to be a bit more reticent this time.

As members may know, I'm a small, perky breast fan - like Princess Agate's, Princess Noemy's and Lupa's, to name a few.  I also enjoy the fact that the previous artist(s) celebrated the amazing natural diversity of female breasts.  The only ones they escewed seemed to be what I call 'National Geographic' - the seriously droopy boob - probably for good reasons.  Part of the reason I love small breasts is that they bring back very happy memories of a former gf whose little titties reacted to my stimulation of them in amazing ways.  Just as we guys can't hide it when we're turned on, this girl's breasts not only became a little bigger, but their areolae swelled and darkened (the classic 'puffy nipple' look) when she really wanted me to make love to her (even when she tried to deny it with a very red face she would try to hide).  Her nipples grew, too.  If you really want to check out what tiny titties can do, watch some videos of porn star, Blue Angel, and you'll be treated to the works!

Some of the artwork in HH has reflected these phenomena, but on large-breasted girls like Jennie this does not work because I've never seen a girl with large hooters like Jennie's respond in the way I described, and fake, silicone boobs not at all, other than nipple erections.  The new artist appears unable to draw a viable range of breasts in shape and size, but I guess we have to wait and see.  But let's just say politely, this is not his skill.  For example, Aghates.  She's a sylph of the forest (like the healing fairy) so one would expect her to have appropriately dainty little breasts (like Agate herself).  But no!  She was given C or D-cups... Oh, and to your probable disappointment, disproportionately small and nondescript feet in her final pose.  I can say, though, feet are very hard to draw properly, especially to give them character and hints at animation.  It took me years of practice and observation to get it right and I suspect the new artist is in the throes of doing this, just as the previous artist took his time to perfect his skills (which he truly did).

Yeah, this is a porn game, and including those parts of a woman's body that get highly turned on is entirely appropriate and can be an effective part of the story.  However, just as our hero's cock acts like a hydraulic jack on autopilot and and is frankly not credible, so a dripping fanny and popped clitoral cherry without any realistic context or foreplay is just as lame.  There is a progression to these states and the artwork (especially the adventure story) should reflect this.  Sometimes real bearers of those enlarging male genitalia become embarrassed and can be subject to flirty female teasing, which, in itself, can be highly arousing for us unlookers.  In a female's case, when ultra turned on, the clitorus bashfully hides itself beneath its hoodie anyway, revealed only as a pronounced ridge.  To touch a woman's glans clitorus in this state would be extremely sensitive and uncomfortable for her.  Yes, Kinkoid could foster more realistic, but compelling, artwork of these kinds.

Generally, the artwork, for all its ups and downs in quality, does, I agree, straddle that difficult bridge between Eastern and Western art styles and sometimes it doesn't quite know where to sit (take Notka and Sailor Celsius as examples).  For me, pure Hentai is an abomination anyway and openly parades a celebration of paedophilia in the forms of many of its female cartoons - like little doe-eyed, under-aged dolls they are.  While I confess, somewhat red-faced, to liking some of them, especially in the mysterious quality of their eyes, I do feel they can cross that line in taste, even for ardent followers of porn.

How's that for straying on and off topic!?  That's me for you!

[eljaman]

Even though a fan of ripley, her scenes with the aliens will get a zero from me. Imo disgusting.

[sanjkame]

On 1/1/2020 at 5:33 AM, Zorba the Geek said:

I'm hopeful Xia will reward with better affection upgrades as Holiday did.

 Have you got her already? For what my club mates said, I think you'll be kind of pissed

[sanjkame]

On 1/1/2020 at 12:43 PM, DvDivXXX said:

I'll do my best not to derail the discussion too much

Look at the phrase...look at the 2 full pages of text...Mission failed HAHA 

[Zorba the Geek]

57 minutes ago, sanjkame said:

 Have you got her already? For what my club mates said, I think you'll be kind of pissed

Oh God!  Is that true?  No, I haven't got her, but her 2 star pose does nothing to offer me any hope whatsoever with only one pose to go.  What do we do about this?  Already, I've lost interest in this event (and it looks like the same artist who created Xia also created the Circus and Xmas girls).  This lack of interest is the first time ever for me, mainly because the artwork has created such nondescript girls - with the exception of Mordana and Bimbette.  How can this have been let loose without any critique oversight?  It's a disgrace and a particular insult to those who are paying members.  Have deadline pressures compromised quality to such an extent?  I've been raving to myself like this all night.  Yeah I'm pissed!

[sanjkame]

1 hour ago, Zorba the Geek said:

Oh God!  Is that true?  No, I haven't got her, but her 2 star pose does nothing to offer me any hope whatsoever with only one pose to go.  What do we do about this?  Already, I've lost interest in this event (and it looks like the same artist who created Xia also created the Circus and Xmas girls).  This lack of interest is the first time ever for me, mainly because the artwork has created such nondescript girls - with the exception of Mordana and Bimbette.  How can this have been let loose without any critique oversight?  It's a disgrace and a particular insult to those who are paying members.  Have deadline pressures compromised quality to such an extent?  I've been raving to myself like this all night.  Yeah I'm pissed!

Another thing that I cannot conceive is that from all the girls they could give for the new artist to train and improve his art style, it has to be Fanny and Fione? Damn, I consider them one of the greatest works from the first artist, ruin that would be sad, I didn't like the first pose, and don't have any reasons to think the rest will be good.

I think one of the problems of the game in general is the number of girls per month, now they want to flood the game with 9 to 10 girls a month, that's just insanity, some kinkoid leader needs some psychiatric guidance. Every time we are receiving girls with a vague, superficial and stereotyped personality, I can't even blame the writters, after all there isn't much to be done with 3 images and 1 paragrafh of text per girl. Some of them you just want to forget, most of them you just don't care about, it's just another number in my profile page. What's the purpose of having so many girls since there are few you really care about? This anxiety of creating more and more girls end up with the need of hiring artist more specialized on "Quantity not quality"

PS: Many edits, sorry

Edited January 4, 2020 by sanjkame

[DvDivXXX]

2 hours ago, sanjkame said:

Fanny and Fione? Damn, I consider them one of the greatest works from the first artist

The original incarnation of the twins wasn't done by the artist you think about (at least I don't think so) and wasn't that great imho. There were most likely multiple artists from the start, even if one in particular did most of the memorable girls (the guy with good ink chops, and a tasteful understanding of human anatomy and sensuality). I won't believe the same artist made a rushed job ike Solveig (with a strong influence from French/Belgian humor comics) and a delicate, much more realistic job like Abräel, for instance.

The original F&F have some details that weren't great, imho, especially the very ugly foot in the final pose (IIRC), and those details, along with the line work, tell me it wasn't done by either the Solveig guy or the Abraël guy (or the guy in question was changing his style every other day, and was only great when he used the "good style", eg Abraël). But to each their own.

The new F&F is clearly inferior to all of the above, even Solveig and her inexplicable hugeness, two left feet in some of her affection scenes, and two super rushed feet in her final pose.

[Zorba the Geek]

2 hours ago, sanjkame said:

Another thing that I cannot conceive is that from all the girls they could give for the new artist to train and improve his art style, it has to be Fanny and Fione? Damn, I consider them one of the greatest works from the first artist, ruin that would be sad, I didn't like the first pose, and don't have any reasons to think the rest will be good.

I think one of the problems of the game in general is the number of girls per month, now they want to flood the game with 9 to 10 girls a month, that's just insanity, some kinkoid leader needs some psychiatric guidance. Every time we are receiving girls with a vague, superficial and stereotyped personality, I can't even blame the writters, after all there isn't much to be done with 3 images and 1 paragrafh of text per girl. Some of them you just want to forget, most of them you just don't care about, it's just another number in my profile page. What's the purpose of having so many girls since there are few you really care about? This anxiety of creating more and more girls end up with the need of hiring artist more specialized on "Quantity not quality"

PS: Many edits, sorry

Again I wish I could use the 'haha' and the 'like' icons at the same time for your post.  This is exactly it, eh.  Far too many girls and the pressure on artists must be insane.  HH represent a terrible corporate employer since any artist working for them has the impossible job of being faithful to his/her artistic creativity needs and being faithful to the genre of the game and the girls' personas.  Chern must be a terrible problem when what is needed is a corporate culture that cherishes the skills and output of their good artists to keep them happily employed.  I often wonder if the geeks have completely taken over the art department.  It's like expecting accountants and lawyers to design great buildings - which they try to do with predictably disastrous results.  HH have a tiger by the tail and it's going to bite if they let it go.  This is the terrible dilemma they are in.

Fanny and Fione?  I sure agree there - petite cuteness personified, so much so that, in a very red-faced and nervously giggly manner, I had to redefine my thoughts on paedophilia, lol.  However, each twin has a really decent pair and perfectly shaped of C-cup boobs (in their original form only) and these don't belong to under-age girls.  Yes, the artist has completely lost the plot in trying for these acrobat versions.  Anyway, what planet was Kinkoid on when he wanted to re-employ them as acrobats when they belong in the bedroom and in Noemy's service - their whole raison d'etre from the beginning?  The brief for the artist was doomed from the start.  Vivia and Hope would've been better bets for this role.

[Zorba the Geek]

7 minutes ago, DvDivXXX said:

The original incarnation of the twins wasn't done by the artist you think about (at least I don't think so) and wasn't that great imho. There were most likely multiple artists from the start, even if one in particular did most of the memorable girls (the guy with good ink chops, and a tasteful understanding of human anatomy and sensuality). I won't believe the same artist made a rushed job ike Solveig (with a strong influence from French/Belgian humor comics) and a delicate, much more realistic job like Abräel, for instance.

The original F&F have some details that weren't great, imho, especially the very ugly foot in the final pose (IIRC), and those details, along with the line work, tell me it wasn't done by either the Solveig guy or the Abraël guy (or the guy in question was changing his style every other day, and was only great when he used the "good style", eg Abraël). But to each their own.

The new F&F is clearly inferior to all of the above, even Solveig and her inexplicable hugeness, two left feet in some of her affection scenes, and two super rushed feet in her final pose.

Damn you man!  I'm again forced to go back and critically appraise all these girls you mentioned.  You do it to me every time!  I don't entirely agree with you re. Solveig.  Her earlier incarnations were crap (as were many other girls, including Juliette), but her 4th and 5th star poses were a lot better (probably a different artist and the same one who drew the 4th and 5th star affection upgrades for Regine).  There's a hint to me that the artist who drew these poses for Solveig also drew F&F.  In her Festival Version (second star pose) she has a very pretty face and well-drawn lips.  Each to his own I suppose, but we differ in our preferences for F&F, but you love feet and focus on them so you'd be super critical of any errors I suppose.

I don't really like Abraël in her original forms either.  Her boobs are terrible and contorted airbags (especially side-on), and there's something wrong about her eyes and eyelashes.  The artist(s) who drew her Chocolate Maker and Val versions redeemed her a lot.  They were great efforts and her boobs were especially well drawn.  Her face was a lot better too, yet the artist still managed to leave us with the impression that she was still Abraël.

I think what can be summed up is that every artist, bar a few, had real problems in drawing some of the girls from the start.  Check out the ears, for example.  I think the most blatant problems with drawing ears may be found with Kalissa when viewed mostly from the rear and she and our hero are walking down the streets of Hamelin Town.  They are too large, too long and they don't match the perspective from which they are viewed.  This is common throughout these earlier drawings.  I agree that the report card "could do better" can be universally applied.

[DvDivXXX]

2 hours ago, Zorba the Geek said:

Each to his own I suppose, but we differ in our preferences for F&F, but you love feet and focus on them so you'd be super critical of any errors I suppose.

Not really, no. I'm plenty forgiving of errors, on feet or otherwise (up to a point, though). It's just easier to mention issues off the top of my head that I've noticed on body parts that I tend to pay attention to. And I try to keep my criticism (and expectations) pretty fair, even though it's a very complex body part to draw, what with all the moving parts, the nails, all the articulations, bones, tendons, how the skin stretches or wrinkles depending on the position, and just the complex shape of it even when it's flat on the floor... I only mention plain wrong stuff that anybody can acknowledge, like Sady's toes becoming twice longer from one image to the next, or a right foot being replaced by a left one. I like feet, yes, but it doesn't mean I expect any HH artist to be Franco Saudelli or Carlos Villa. ^^

In the case of original F&F, the red-haired twin's right foot is just a mess (and her entire leg, as well, if you visualize it from the parts that we see from behind the other girl). The overall shape is basically a slightly rounded rectangle and all five toes have about the same size (at the very least, the big toe should be, well big compared to the others), and they look like they've been pasted onto the rectangle shape after the fact, rather than being a natural continuation of the bones inside of it, as they should. We shouldn't see her sole facing the camera this way, not with the curvature and angle of her leg (unless said leg is broken, there should be some perspective at play on that foot). The purple-haired girl's lower right leg has roughly the opposite problem: the perspective is way too strong, giving the impression that it's a ridiculously short leg. Her foot is also a quick blob that has an incorrect shape in and of itself, but more importantly, unless her ankle is broken, the angle of the foot in relation to the position of the leg is impossible.

I could go on, but I don't think it's necessary. Just take my word for it that this drawing (the final pose) has real issues with feet, legs and perspective. Trust me, that's not me being picky. I just went into details to make my point this one time.

Speaking of which, I'm honestly not sure if you're aware of it, but you actually describe boobs in such great details that you might be the one who's being perhaps a bit too critical when it comes to depictions of that one body part he's mildly obsessed with (basically the thing you assumed about me and feet). Love them all you like, and be poetic about it all you want, but breasts are objectively a lot simpler to draw than feet, or hands, for that matter. But any decent artist pays extra attention to hands, whereas only great artists and artists who happen to have a foot fetish themselves usually get feet really right. Think about it: apart from this very post, which was deliberate, I usually only mention when feet are particularly good or particularly bad in a picture. You, my friend, tend to write entire essays about the boobs, and the tits, and the aerolas, whenever you analyze a drawing in this game. ^^

Sorry if I'm ruining F&F for you, but the artist bit a lot more than they could chew on that last pose; primarily in terms of perspective. I'm just the messenger here. ^^

Edited January 5, 2020 by DvDivXXX

[Karyia]

8 hours ago, sanjkame said:

I think one of the problems of the game in general is the number of girls per month, now they want to flood the game with 9 to 10 girls a month, that's just insanity, some kinkoid leader needs some psychiatric guidance. Every time we are receiving girls with a vague, superficial and stereotyped personality, I can't even blame the writters, after all there isn't much to be done with 3 images and 1 paragrafh of text per girl. Some of them you just want to forget, most of them you just don't care about, it's just another number in my profile page. What's the purpose of having so many girls since there are few you really care about? This anxiety of creating more and more girls end up with the need of hiring artist more specialized on "Quantity not quality"

The more girls you have available, the more time/playing it takes to get them all, which makes sense from their side.

The problem is really what most have been saying for a while... the new stuff has been pretty "poor".

4 events per month, I'd think 4/5 new girls per month would be nice... for sure, would love to have 4 great/interesting new girls than 10 (or so) bad/awful ones. Of course, I can't speak for the veteran players who probably have lots/most of the girls already, so they might need/want more... but do they even care/approve of them given the lastest lackluster additions?

I suppose that people will lose interest in the game if this keeps up, so it's in their interest to something about it.

[jelom]

4 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

I'm plenty forgiving of errors ...
... that's not me being picky ...

That has been funny.

 

[DvDivXXX]

4 hours ago, jelom said:

That has been funny.

 

You're probably right. Zorba and I have been beating a dead horse about the art quality for a while, now, and most players don't see or care for that many details.

Looking at the current results of the poll in the other thread, I notice two seemingly contradictory trends:

1. Mordana and Bimbette, the two girls with the best (or "least worse") drawings by far, won the popular vote by miles, but...
2. When asked about art quality specifically, the vast majority of votes still went to "more or less" (decent) and even "good".

This tells me that most players can feel the drop in art quality, but it doesn't bother them. So I guess this trend will just keep going. As long as we're just a few to complain about it, Kinkoid won't care, and they probably shouldn't. So yeah, I guess that's that.

[jelom]

No, you are right in the decrease of art quality. I had realized that before all the posts started to complain about it. It bothers me, but obviously not as much as you. The problem is that stretching the issue as to specify every detail in every new and old image, can be a bit boring. We just want to enjoy the game and that is difficult if someone is constantly reminding us that.

[Bomba]

It has been going on for more than a month and the only response so far was Noacc saying:

On 12/4/2019 at 11:29 AM, Noacc said:

Some mixed feedback. It's always appreciated, thank you for all the opinions, keep 'em flowing! 
Will make sure that our artists read it✏️

That's it. Art quality is dropping and no reaction from Kinkoid. Well, maybe they do listen. And maybe they have art ready few months in advance, so they can't change art quality in the next few events. But still, I think we need to focus on something that's more decisive. Art quality is still kinda debatable. Or there's a lot of people like me, who don't know much about art and simply notice that something's weird and just move on, without ever coming to forum.

But there's a thing, that is pretty straightforward. It's the position of the new art. There's no debate at all that it's awful. And I think if we focus on it, just it, maybe we can force a reaction.

1) The position of empty space.

_______________Before_____________________________________________Now______________________

  

 

As you can see, there is a way to fit a fighting pose in a rectangle without leaving empty like 80% of the space. Most of the new art lack the ability to reach the edges of the available space and leaves too much empty space.

2) The position of camera angle.

_________________Before________________________________________________Now____________________

  

As you can see there's a way to draw girls in a way, that you look straight at them and not from above or another weird angle. Most of the new art drawn in a way that can't be put on a profile page, which was designed for a specific camera angle - the straight one.

That's it. If we would be able to get their reaction on this, then maybe we get an improvement of art quality later.

...

Edit: Oh, come on! This images should work.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Bomba
pictures

[DvDivXXX]

I don't see your images, just random stuff.png etc.

[Bomba]

1 hour ago, DvDivXXX said:

I don't see your images, just random stuff.png etc.

Fixed it.

But it's strange. Everything worked fine when I posted.

[Falco82]

5 ore fa, DvDivXXX ha scritto:

You're probably right. Zorba and I have been beating a dead horse about the art quality for a while, now, and most players don't see or care for that many details.

Looking at the current results of the poll in the other thread, I notice two seemingly contradictory trends:

1. Mordana and Bimbette, the two girls with the best (or "least worse") drawings by far, won the popular vote by miles, but...
2. When asked about art quality specifically, the vast majority of votes still went to "more or less" (decent) and even "good".

This tells me that most players can feel the drop in art quality, but it doesn't bother them. So I guess this trend will just keep going. As long as we're just a few to complain about it, Kinkoid won't care, and they probably shouldn't. So yeah, I guess that's that.

I would not say that it is contradictory indeed, if you look at the poll 15 people voted one of the girls drawn "worse" and 16 say that the drawing style is good.

I'm not saying they are the same but in any case none of the answers were right or wrong since everyone thinks with their own head and not with that of the group, so is possible for example that a new player who has not seen the quality of this game so far can evaluate based on other games of the genre with worse graphics or that doesn't pay particular attention to quality and has voted based on personal tastes for the characters, etc.

Unify the answer "good" to the "more or less" instead is wrong because the sufficiency is not a positive vote but a symptom that there is something wrong.

In addition, the survey was on the whole event and not on the individual characters.

Personally I was in doubt until the very end whether to give "bad" or "more or less" precisely because of the cumulative vote which therefore provides for an average. Being the vote for the whole event, I can't give "awfull": if there are 2 characters that are worth 7-8 the average will never be 1-2, there is no escape from mathematics. Anyway until the end I was going to give the negative rating (indeed most of the characters are negative) but then I wanted to be good and give the sufficiency because there has been an improvement compared to the previous ones from Christmas onwards and some poses are even good, so I asked myself: "if I had these characters in the harem would it bother me so much?".

It's not a rhetorical question because from Wicked Christmas I took Lee Lee, Hateya and Santa Claudia and then Melissa, Selene and Holiday and every time I scroll through my harem I curse them (all except Lee Lee that I still rate the best of the group) because they are really a punch in the eye between the others.

I personally believe that this doesn't happen with the new ones, at least not as much as the others (I don't have any yet so actually it's only an impression), but the fact remains that their vote is negative. Not that of the whole event though.

However, I don't think that the devs have ever had an interest in these "internal" surveys that we make between us on the forum, I think the difference will be made by the questionnaires that Kinkoid usually asks to fill in at the end of each new event, because there the vote is on the individual characters, so if the majority give strong negative marks on badly drawn characters, they will be able to do nothing but admit the error and remedy to it.

And I don't know if they can do it, but the best thing would be that the characters we are talking about can be totally redrawned, as was done with some affection scenes that had been released with a bad quality level, so at least you will be able to look at your harem without be ashamed of those ugly stain on an otherwise well-made painting.