Cap on shard range for club champ fights?

[Lhans]

It would prevent people from bumrushing the club champ (or at least make it less likely). There's something wrong about people simply soloing the first iterations of the champ when they are still squishy. That sorts of beat the collaboration purpose eh?

Edited April 4, 2021 by Lhans

[jelom]

Now the anxious boys only bomb the club champion during the first times when they get the girl by sheer numbers of tickets spent, with your proposal they will be interfering with the rest of the players during more days.

[Lhans]

The cap should be low enough that it would discourage bombing during the first times due to high cost of kobans and tickets used to finish the boss for the shards received but high enough that one would still get the girl if they actively participate in each club champ fight after a certain amount of times. 

It's all about moderation. Making the cap really low would also not be helpful. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Lhans

[Bomba]

There's a cap and it is low. It's not worth it to solo the club champion if you're the only one participating. The amount of shards depends not only on the amount of impression you did, but also on the amount of participants. Basically, doing 85% of the total impression with 9 participants gives about the same range as doing 5% with 40 participants.

[LotsaPoppa]

The whole club champion thing has convinced me it's time to stop spending money on this game. Shard drop is erratic and nonsensical, varying time zones for club members makes coordination difficult if not impossible, and trying to actually get these low-level "legendary" girls is really just an exercise in koban spending. I'm certain my opinion is in the minority, and that's fine. For my part, though, this added feature is just indicative of a definite decline in game quality, not an improvement. Even the artwork has gone downhill, which is unfortunate. That was one of the best aspects of the game from the outset. Hopefully things improve, but that remains to be seen. Again, just my opinion, but I doubt I'm entirely alone, at least in some of these observations.

[Lhans]

On 4/9/2021 at 12:21 AM, Bomba said:

There's a cap and it is low. It's not worth it to solo the club champion if you're the only one participating. 

Apparently not low enough when people are rushing to kill the first few iterations of the club champion. Worth is subjective. 

[Bomba]

39 minutes ago, Lhans said:

Apparently not low enough when people are rushing to kill the first few iterations of the club champion. Worth is subjective. 

No, it's really not. Look around, there's quite a few posts with people basically doing this champion solo and complaining that it's not worth the investment. If you think that's not the case. Well, then please add something more concrete and we'll discuss the numbers. How many players participate in your club champion battles and how low you think the cap should be? And it would also be good to know what you think is the percentage that the rusher gets.

But honestly, I don't think that it's the shard range that's the problem. I think it's the player, the rusher who's the problem in this case. But yeah, the overall design is quite flawed too, but not in terms of shard range. It's designed for a full club participation and for a club with players of similar levels. Which isn't great, but manageable and honestly, I think it's quite a good decision. But the fact that the third champion is so much weaker than the second confused a lot of players and they invest way more than they need and that impacts other players. Still, the communication is a key and if this situation is discussed within a club I think the solution will present itself. I'm pretty sure that everyone is facing the same problem right now with this third club champion and everyone found their own solutions. You might as well.

[Lhans]

31 minutes ago, Bomba said:

No, it's really not. Look around, there's quite a few posts with people basically doing this champion solo and complaining that it's not worth the investment. If you think that's not the case. Well, then please add something more concrete and we'll discuss the numbers. How many players participate in your club champion battles and how low you think the cap should be? And it would also be good to know what you think is the percentage that the rusher gets.

But honestly, I don't think that it's the shard range that's the problem. I think it's the player, the rusher who's the problem in this case. But yeah, the overall design is quite flawed too, but not in terms of shard range. It's designed for a full club participation and for a club with players of similar levels. Which isn't great, but manageable and honestly, I think it's quite a good decision. But the fact that the third champion is so much weaker than the second confused a lot of players and they invest way more than they need and that impacts other players. Still, the communication is a key and if this situation is discussed within a club I think the solution will present itself. I'm pretty sure that everyone is facing the same problem right now with this third club champion and everyone found their own solutions. You might as well.

While you and I may consider it not worth it, there are players in big clubs who spend the kobans to do so which means they consider it "worth" it to get the girl just a few days earlier. 

The shard max range goes 3 to 100+ depending on participation or so I hear since I've never gotten that high. So a person could be done in the first day if they were lucky after investing a lot. As for a suggested cap, 20-40 max? (shrugs) Whatever works to cut down on rushing. Would probably piss off the guys in a club of 1 though heh (or small and/or weak clubs). It could motivate them to recruit more which can be hard to do with nonexistent messaging system or recruitment tool.

"Communication" is hard to do with lurker players. Does chat even work with mobile phones by now? And yes, I could probably kick the rushers out but who knows, some future club event might come out where their deep pockets might actually come in handy.

[Kenrae]

18 minutes ago, Lhans said:

While you and I may consider it not worth it, there are players in big clubs who spend the kobans to do so which means they consider it "worth" it to get the girl just a few days earlier. 

The shard max range goes 3 to 100+ depending on participation or so I hear since I've never gotten that high. So a person could be done in the first day if they were lucky after investing a lot. As for a suggested cap, 20-40 max? (shrugs) Whatever works to cut down on rushing. Would probably piss off the guys in a club of 1 though heh (or small and/or weak clubs). It could motivate them to recruit more which can be hard to do with nonexistent messaging system or recruitment tool.

"Communication" is hard to do with lurker players. Does chat even work with mobile phones by now? And yes, I could probably kick the rushers out but who knows, some future club event might come out where their deep pockets might actually come in handy.

What he's trying to say is that those players aren't even doing things efficiently. If you do it solo the maximum number of shards you can get is nowhere near 100, more like 15. The maximum depends on the number of participants, not only your own investment.

[Bomba]

9 minutes ago, Lhans said:

While you and I may consider it not worth it, there are players in big clubs who spend the kobans to do so which means they consider it "worth" it to get the girl just a few days earlier. 

The shard max range goes 3 to 100+ depending on participation or so I hear since I've never gotten that high. So a person could be done in the first day if they were lucky after investing a lot. As for a suggested cap, 20-40 max? (shrugs) Whatever works to cut down on rushing. Would probably piss off the guys in a club of 1 though heh (or small and/or weak clubs). It could motivate them to recruit more which can be hard to do with nonexistent messaging system or recruitment tool.

"Communication" is hard to do with lurker players. Does chat even work with mobile phones by now? And yes, I could probably kick the rushers out but who knows, some future club event might come out where their deep pockets might actually come in handy.

How many participants? And how much of a total does that rusher does? Cause the numbers you gave me (20-40) are the exact numbers for soloing the champion(more than 98.5% of total hp) with 5-8 total participants. And if you're talking about 20-40 as an average than it's a cap with 8-12 participants. And it's pretty hard to do 98.5% by yourself with that many other players also participating. So, what exactly are we talking about?

And I didn't talk about worth for people like you and me, I was talking about players throwing tons of tickets and kobans at the champion.

2 minutes ago, Kenrae said:

What he's trying to say is that those players aren't even doing things efficiently. If you do it solo the maximum number of shards you can get is nowhere near 100, more like 15. The maximum depends on the number of participants, not only your own investment.

Yeah, more like 4 shards. So it's 2.5 shards on average. But only if we're actually talking about soloing it.

[Lhans]

4 hours ago, Kenrae said:

What he's trying to say is that those players aren't even doing things efficiently. If you do it solo the maximum number of shards you can get is nowhere near 100, more like 15. The maximum depends on the number of participants, not only your own investment.

And I'm saying that they should revise the shard range because people are rushing despite it being inefficient. 

 

4 hours ago, Bomba said:

How many participants? And how much of a total does that rusher does?

Examples of rushed club champ fights. (ball park figures)

2 participants. 1 guy 170 fights. 2nd guy the rest. (at about 10 or lower).

8 participants. 1 guy 100 fights, other people the rest. (at about 20 or lower ea)

5 participants. 4 guys at 20 or lower. 5th guy, everything else.

Anyways, the club champ tend to have a challenge duration of less than 20min at times.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Lhans

[Bomba]

41 minutes ago, Lhans said:

And I'm saying that they should revise the shard range because people are rushing despite it being inefficient. 

 

Examples of rushed club champ fights. 

2 participants. 1 guy 170 fights. 2nd guy the rest.

8 participants. 1 guy 100 fights, other people the rest.

Uhm... what? .. you know, you should've started from these numbers...
So, let me get this straight. You want to revisit and lower the shard range, which is already quite low, that affects every player in the game because you have an [censored] in the club? The [censored] who sabotages his club and does that for a measly 3 shards, that one, right? And you want to punish him by lowering the shard range? Oh, wait, now I'm confused, you were talking about 20-40 shard range just in a previous post. So do you want to raise the shard range or something? I'm really lost at this point.

[Lhans]

1 hour ago, Bomba said:

Uhm... what? .. you know, you should've started from these numbers...
So, let me get this straight. You want to revisit and lower the shard range, which is already quite low, that affects every player in the game because you have an [censored] in the club? The [censored] who sabotages his club and does that for a measly 3 shards, that one, right? And you want to punish him by lowering the shard range? Oh, wait, now I'm confused, you were talking about 20-40 shard range just in a previous post. So do you want to raise the shard range or something? I'm really lost at this point.

Read my second post.

[DocJD]

It is sad how many people don't understand what a "Club Challenge" is. It means the club gets together and cooperates to win. People in small clubs need to recruit more members or leave and join a larger club. Members who go it solo and ruin if for everyone else should be removed from the club by those who want to do it right. Lurkers and/or non-communicators need to be disciplined or removed for the good of the rest of the club. Unless the Champions in the club challenges start to become too powerful, members shouldn't need to spend kobans. I'm hoping the recent, easier to beat champion is a sign that Kinkoid as adujusting to make it work.

[Bomba]

9 minutes ago, Lhans said:

Read my second post.

This one?

On 4/5/2021 at 2:34 PM, Lhans said:

The cap should be low enough that it would discourage bombing during the first times due to high cost of kobans and tickets used to finish the boss for the shards received but high enough that one would still get the girl if they actively participate in each club champ fight after a certain amount of times. 

It's all about moderation. Making the cap really low would also not be helpful. 

The one I originally responded to? I did.
I also read your later posts. You're talking about a guy spending hundreds of fights for 3 shards. And you say that it's not the guy or anything else which is the problem, it's the shard range that's the problem and that it should be lower. And you also think that the shard range of 20-40 will do. Which doesn't really make sense, cause 20-40 is way more than 3. And you can't "lower" from 3 to a higher number. The relation between numbers isn't really based on opinion.

But whatever, if you decided you aren't going to even dignify me with a response, than nothing I can do, I guess. I could also point you at my second post, but hey, this exchange is enough for me. Although now I see a reason why someone would go and spend every ticket just to deny someone else every shard.

For anyone else reading this and having similar problems. It's not the amount of fights, it's the percentage of damage done that's important. And second, even if you decided not to kick the rusher there're other ways to either use them for the better of the club or to make sure that they will get the girl asap and will stop messing with other people in club.

[Lhans]

17 minutes ago, Bomba said:

This one?

The one I originally responded to? I did.
I also read your later posts. You're talking about a guy spending hundreds of fights for 3 shards. And you say that it's not the guy or anything else which is the problem, it's the shard range that's the problem and that it should be lower. And you also think that the shard range of 20-40 will do. Which doesn't really make sense, cause 20-40 is way more than 3. And you can't "lower" from 3 to a higher number. The relation between numbers isn't really based on opinion.

But whatever, if you decided you aren't going to even dignify me with a response, than nothing I can do, I guess. I could also point you at my second post, but hey, this exchange is enough for me. Although now I see a reason why someone would go and spend every ticket just to deny someone else every shard.

For anyone else reading this and having similar problems. It's not the amount of fights, it's the percentage of damage done that's important. And second, even if you decided not to kick the rusher there're other ways to either use them for the better of the club or to make sure that they will get the girl asap and will stop messing with other people in club.

1. When you have people playing a certain way, it's easier to change a game's rules rather than trying to change their behavior.

And I have no idea why you keep thinking 3 shards, 20-40 shards or what not just because it was posted. After investing a bunch of tickets and kobans, people gets a range from 1 - (insert number here) after the champion is done. If RNG really hates them, they could have spent a whole bunch for 1 shard. And yet they still do so.

2. I thought my 2nd post was clear enough. Moderation is key. Not too high, not too low a shard range. Just enough to satisfy the majority of players after every club champ fight. Which part of it do you need me to explain?

[Kenrae]

4 hours ago, Lhans said:

And I'm saying that they should revise the shard range because people are rushing despite it being inefficient. 

I don't think KK can't do anything about people who are both morons and stupid. The best think to do, IMO, is kicking them out of the club.

[Bomba]

43 minutes ago, Lhans said:

1. When you have people playing a certain way, it's easier to change a game's rules rather than trying to change their behavior.

True. Kinda. See, now we're talking.

1 hour ago, Lhans said:

1. When you have people playing a certain way, it's easier to change a game's rules rather than trying to change their behavior.

And I have no idea why you keep thinking 3 shards, 20-40 shards or what not just because it was posted. After investing a bunch of tickets and kobans, people gets a range from 1 - (insert number here) after the champion is done. If RNG really hates them, they could have spent a whole bunch for 1 shard. And yet they still do so.

2. I thought my 2nd post was clear enough. Moderation is key. Not too high, not too low a shard range. Just enough to satisfy the majority of players after every club champ fight. Which part of it do you need me to explain?

1. I keep thinking that, because I asked you for variables for shard range and you've given me this as an answer.

5 hours ago, Lhans said:

Examples of rushed club champ fights. (ball park figures)

2 participants. 1 guy 170 fights. 2nd guy the rest. (at about 10 or lower).

8 participants. 1 guy 100 fights, other people the rest. (at about 20 or lower ea)

5 participants. 4 guys at 20 or lower. 5th guy, everything else.

Approximately: 1) 1-6 shard range. Average 3.5 shards. 2) 1-16 shard range. Average 8.5 3) 1-17? not sure, how interpret these numbers, so I used maximum. Average 8. And there were less of these when I first read it. Why 20-40? Because you said that this is a number you want instead. What, was that one wrong too? And I'm not here to talk about RNG or karma, just math. If you're asking why the players do that, then again, it's a different topic.

2. Your 2nd post is clear enough and you received an answer to your second post that no, that's not the case at all. But you stated that no, that's not right, it should be lower. And after that when I asked you about details and cap. You answered 20-40 and gave those examples. It's way above the shard range that the guy in your example gets. So I do see quite a heavy contradiction between you wanting the shard range to be even lower and you wanting this cap to be 20-40 as you say, which indicate that you want to raise it. You want to lower it even more and at the same time raise to 20-40. And it's third post in the row that I point that out and you still think it doesn't need any explanation.

30 minutes ago, Kenrae said:

I don't think KK can't do anything about people who are both morons and stupid. The best think to do, IMO, is kicking them out of the club.

He kinda already answered that that's not an option. He'd rather change the rules of the game than do that. I have no idea why shard range is a villain in this case though.

[Lhans]

1 hour ago, Bomba said:

True. Kinda. See, now we're talking.

But not communicating properly it seems.

1 hour ago, Bomba said:

Approximately: 1) 1-6 shard range. Average 3.5 shards. 2) 1-16 shard range. Average 8.5 3) 1-17? not sure, how interpret these numbers, so I used maximum. Average 8. And there were less of these when I first read it. Why 20-40? Because you said that this is a number you want instead. What, was that one wrong too? And I'm not here to talk about RNG or karma, just math. If you're asking why the players do that, then again, it's a different topic.

And I haven't really checked the numbers but I really doubt the shard range you're giving is accurate. The guys who did a lot should have a bigger shard range than that. Probably up to 80+ shards for their max range. I sincerely doubt a guy used 170 tickets just to see his range remain at 1-6 shards.

And 20-40 are just suggested numbers just to give an idea of a cap and I didn't even really gave much thought about it. Hence the question mark at the end and the shrug. Which is why I was wondering why you were so hang up on it.

Anyways at 1-20 shard range, they'd be done in 10 champ fights if they had an average of 10 shards or so. 1-40, half that duration. I am in no way saying that it MUST be at that range. How many champ fights you reckon one must do to be fair eh?

I'm perfectly fine if they made some other change instead to discourage rushing like they did with the league. 

The point is, the current system could be improved. The cap is merely my suggestion in order to do so.

[GeorgeMTO]

1 hour ago, Lhans said:

But not communicating properly it seems.

And I haven't really checked the numbers but I really doubt the shard range you're giving is accurate. The guys who did a lot should have a bigger shard range than that. Probably up to 80+ shards for their max range. I sincerely doubt a guy used 170 tickets just to see his range remain at 1-6 shards.

And 20-40 are just suggested numbers just to give an idea of a cap and I didn't even really gave much thought about it. Hence the question mark at the end and the shrug. Which is why I was wondering why you were so hang up on it.

Anyways at 1-20 shard range, they'd be done in 10 champ fights if they had an average of 10 shards or so. 1-40, half that duration. I am in no way saying that it MUST be at that range. How many champ fights you reckon one must do to be fair eh?

I'm perfectly fine if they made some other change instead to discourage rushing like they did with the league.

The point is, the current system could be improved. The cap is merely my suggestion in order to do so.

Those numbers are indeed accurate to testing within reason. You've only given number of fights when it's actually the raw impression amount, so the rough estimations may be slightly off, but Bomba's estimates are definitely in the right area. Here's a link to a table that various users have contributed towards with their personal data.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13nbqBk8zQjiyWMpdmdi1Ir7X6OiljTMzM8mvRpdT8hI/edit#gid=111486868

So yeah, you're providing feedback on something you haven't comprehended, and then you've been surprised that other people who have looked at such things have said you're providing contradictory ideas. The range already incentives letting many people participate, your club members just don't understand that either. The first guy absolutely only had a range of 1-6.

Could the system be better? Probably, almost all systems can be better. But this one is quite good.

[Lhans]

This information would had been really helpful if it was available in game or in patch notes or something. But since it's not, well you'll have people doing dumb stuff like providing feedback on how to improve the game due to their frustration of people bumping off the champion so fast who apparently also didn't know about this.

[Bomba]

18 hours ago, GeorgeMTO said:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13nbqBk8zQjiyWMpdmdi1Ir7X6OiljTMzM8mvRpdT8hI/edit#gid=111486868

Thank you to the Gol D Roger's Royal Club! I never saw it on the forum before. Was that collected here, on the forum or somewhere else?

@Lhans Kinkoid rarely shares any information about drop rates and it's always up to users to gather the data. Also, my apologies, after you dismissed what I was saying I changed my approach too much and wasn't helpful at all. I'm sorry.
As for the rusher problem. Every club got that in one way or another and a lot of ideas has already been brought up. Yours made sense, but you were coming from the wrong assumptions. Overall design of club champion is pretty good in terms of shards, but it relies heavily on a situation where every member contributes and does so with quite a vigor. So changing the shard range isn't really the solution. I hope you will see that too. The shard range relies on percent of total damage done and the amount of participants. That was figured at the very beginning. More precise numbers came later. But by knowing that alone there're few ways how to deal with rushers.
First, as many already suggested - kick the rusher out. Club champion is a team effort and one can sabotage it if he wants to. The second one is to use the rusher - get a message out and gather everyone to try and be ready to do at least one attack at the time when champion respawns - that will give everyone at least the minimum amount of shard range. That will also improve the shard range of rusher and he will finish sooner and leave the club champion for others to attack. Third is to purposefully ignore the champion with everyone in the club, which will leave the rusher with minimum 1-4 shard range if actually wins solo, which might discourage them from doing that again. It's probably will not. And seeing that he gets only few shards that rusher might just leave a club, which isn't something you want if you don't want to use the first option. Fourth option is to again, gather everyone and attack champion at the time when the rusher isn't active. It will take a lot. You will have to learn when the rusher is active by always checking his online status in club window. You will probably also need to reset champion with kobans. And most importantly you will have to warn other members to be ready for that and do that. It's hard to do and probably not worth, but it's still something worth mentioning.
There was also a problem of club-hoppers, but that's a different matter. The second option is still doable with them though.

 

[Lhans]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll contemplate it. Pardon my ignorance.