Battle stats discussion

[Ben9]

I've been doing some calcs of battle stats to work out the formula as the wiki isn't accurate.  I think I have it now if anyone is interested:

[Attack Power] = [Hero's X stat] + 3 × [Alpha's X stat] + 1.3 × ([Beta's X stat if in fight] + 1.3 x [Omega's X stat if in fight])

[Defense against Y] = [Hero's Y stat] / 2 + 1.5 × [Alpha's Y stat] + 1.3 × ([Beta's X stat if in fight] + 1.3 x [Omega's X stat if in fight])

X = your class.   

Also I discovered two different bugs (or features) during the actual fight while I was testing, which explain why your attack goes down when your beta joins and they only have alpha.

1. If you orgasm first, when your beta enters, the other team also get the defence bonus of their beta immediately.  If you watch closely you can see that later, when their beta enters, your damage stays the same as if they were already there.

2. During the fight, beta gives 1.75 × [X stat] as defence.  But the pre-battle page calculates her as 1.3.  I tested this in a few fights now and it seems to add up.  Can't test omega, as it never lasts long enough. 

[hahero]

Update the Wiki?

Edited June 11, 2018 by hahero

[PlusIon]

Thank you for catching this. My PVP numbers now indeed match up. I already knew about point 1. I have been racking my brain trying to figure out the modifier for your point number 2....  I was going about it differently. I thought it was my attack power that had the wrong modifier. For some reason I never thought it could be my opponents defense that was calculating incorrectly! Once I plugged in your numbers it all works out.  I cannot thank you enough.

[Ben9]

What I find most interesting about it is that having a strong Beta of your own class is much more powerful than I thought it was.  She'll give the biggest defence boost once either side orgasms, and gives the most attack boost.  Sometimes more than doubling your total defence, against any class. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Ben9

[Hollo]

Thanks very much for working this out! One thing though:

17 hours ago, Ben9 said:

[Defense against Y] = [Hero's Y stat] / 2 + 1.5 × [Alpha's Y stat] + 1.3 × ([Beta's X stat if in fight] + 1.3 x [Omega's X stat if in fight])

This is confusing. Are you sure the beta and omega's X stat affects your defense against Y, as opposed to their Y stats?

[Daniele]

Yes, that's how it always worked. Beta and omega contributes to the battle only with their hero's main stat value, for both Attack and defence.

[Ben9]

19 minutes ago, Hollo said:

Thanks very much for working this out! One thing though:

This is confusing. Are you sure the beta and omega's X stat affects your defense against Y, as opposed to their Y stats?

Yea definitely your hero class stat is all that counts for beta and omega.   

In practice this means that vs different class to your own, the beta can contribute the most defence, as your hero/alpha may have low stats there.

[Hentaicles]

I'm having a little trouble with the practical application of whether to fight a particular battle or not. I understand now how the math works behind what stats are shown, but I don't understand how they're applied in the battle itself.

[Hentaicles]

Here's an example of an arena battle. 

Ego 39,938 Shagger

4,316_____2,392-3,242
3,322_____2,170-3,019
3,351_____2,616-3,465
31,803____5,463-6,312
36,523____5,415 (35.31%)

Alpha:____  339 ___ 339 ___ 627
Beta:_____  277 ___ 603 ___ 375
Omega:___ 386 ___ 247 ___ 204

 

Enemy Ego 38,947 Shagger

5,093_____949-2,515
863_______877-2,443
952_______1,021-2,587
30,411____6,925-8,491
35,574____1,534 (12.69%)

Alpha:____  611 ___ 297 ___ 363
Beta:_____  578 ___ 347 ___ 380
Omega:___ 627 ___ 314 ___ 314

[Hollo]

From experience, I can tell you that the most important stats are ego, each player's primary stat (KH, HC, Charm), and each player's defense against the other player's primary. Harmony is a wild card that could break a tie, or even overcome a slight disadvantage.

For example, here are my stats, as they appear in my arena box when I'm not fighting, And, through the magic of photoshopping, a challenger:

 

(This is something I'll see plenty of at my level - someone with much lower defense scores and a much higher attack.)

First thing: you can ignore the actual KH / HC / Charm scores, and which girls they use. They don't matter at this point (so I left out girls). All you care about is your opponent's final attack / defense / crit. In fact, you don't even care about the range on attack / defense (mostly); you just care about the lower number.

In my example above, I'm Charm, and my opponent is obviously HC. So another thing I can ignore is his defense against anything other than Charm - that 4461 in the middle of his box is the only one. Likewise, I can ignore all my defense scores except vs. HC. If I subtract his Charm defense from my (lower) attack, it's 23602 - 4461, or 19141. If I subtract my HC defense from his attack, I get 25710 - 5219 = 20491.

And if I go ahead with this fight, those are exactly the numbers I'll see flashing at the top (assuming no crits) - I'll hit his ego for 19141 each time, while he hits mine for 20491. I've got a 6k ego edge over him, but he'll eat through that in 6 hits, and that's about how long a fight lasts.

The spoiler is crit. On a real screen, you'll also see a percentage to the side of the Harmony score. That's important, because it factors in the bonus or penalty you get for facing a different school. That means you can ignore both Harmony scores. Just look at the percentage. Above, he'll probably have a crit edge on me, since he's HC and I'm Charm - just guessing, it'll probably be around 28% to my 22%. If so, he'll probably have a further edge on me. I'll probably pass on this fight unless I get 24+ mojo for winning.  

Normally, when assessing a fight, I find the difference between our defenses, and I just eyeball it - looks like I've got about 800 on him - then add that to my attack to get about 24400, and compare to his 25710 to see he's got about 1300 points of advantage over me. Which is close enough to the numbers above.

[Hollo]

31 minutes ago, Hentaicles said:

Ego 39,938 Shagger

4,316_____2,392-3,242
3,322_____2,170-3,019
3,351_____2,616-3,465
31,803____5,463-6,312
36,523____5,415 (35.31%)

Enemy Ego 38,947 Shagger

5,093_____949-2,515
863_______877-2,443
952_______1,021-2,587
30,411____6,925-8,491
35,574____1,534 (12.69%)

So, to take your example, again, we can ignore most of these numbers, such as the A/B/O stats (so I've omitted them). You're both Shaggers (HC), so start with HC defense, low end. He's got a weak 949 to your 2392 - a 1400-point advantage to you, roughly. So add that to your attack low end of 5463 to get 6800. Compare to his 6925. He's still got about 100 points on you. That might be worth adding another sigfig to the math, so 1450 to your 5463 again for 6913. Suuuper close. Your hits will be about equal. And you've got about 1000 more ego for him to overcome. Moreover, with 35.31% to 12.69%, if a crit happens, it'll be almost three times as likely to be yours, so this looks like a near certain win for you.

--

Btw, the reason you disregard the upper end of the ranges is that those numbers reflect your beta and omega joining the fight, which only happens if your alpha and beta crit, respectively. Which could certainly happen, but it's going to be wild - on average, it'll take 2-3 hits before your beta kicks in, and the extra boost you get will often not be enough to make the difference. (What makes the difference will more likely be the fact that you crit at all, which is why crit% can matter.)

Edited August 6, 2018 by Hollo

[Chthugha]

Just battle everyone.
In the long run it will get you more experience, which will lead to more money at earlier stages, etc.
Not fighting against opponents because you might lose some Mojo has never been logical to me.

Anyway, the way Hollo looks at the stats is the same I look at it to see if I should win/lose (simple question of subtraction).
I would however say he should win the fight against that opponent he made up most of the times (at least 3 our of 4 times).

[_shal_]

1 hour ago, Chthugha said:

Just battle everyone.
In the long run it will get you more experience, which will lead to more money at earlier stages, etc.
Not fighting against opponents because you might lose some Mojo has never been logical to me.

I treat gaining mojo as a game goal, simply as a house rule. Makes PvP a little more interesting to me beyond just rote clicking.

It helps that I'm able to quantify my likelihood of winning to a fairly good degree, so I can play it utilitarian - I usually take all battles that are +EV in mojo, plus a few that don't make that cut but where the downside of losing is still small in absolute terms (say, less than 10 points).

[Hollo]

I kinda treat it the same way as _shal_, except that I think mojo matters a little - if I can do it right, I can win prizes now. Chthugha's got a point, too, though; if you fight everything, you may lose mojo, but you'll only go up in XP and affection if you put the right women in beta and omega slots.

I actually think you'll probably lose mojo, though, unless you're paying closer attention. But it's hard to gauge. First thing to understand: if you lose, you lose 32 (31?) minus the amount you'd gain if you won. So if you see 24 there, losing means you lose 8. If you see 32, losing means you only lose 1. And so on.

If a fight looks close but your mojo award is 32, go for it. You'll win 50% of the fights in the long run; for every 1 you lose, you'll gain 32. It's a no-brainer. Same if it's an award of 1; skip it, since you're going to lose a lot more than you gain (unless you really just want XP+aff). If, however, it awards 32 for a win, but your opponent has a 5000-ego advantage, 500 more attack-defense, and 30% crit, it's typically a sucker's bet. You could fight, but you likely will lose more than 32 times before you win. Same goes for a fight where you're the favorite to win, but your award is only 1-10 - it might not be worth it anyway. The crit spread means it's high variance - you could have a long streak of good luck, or of bad. I'm still collecting information on this.

[nod]

Fighting battles you are sure to lose is a sure way to stunt your growth. You don't gain XP (or anything else) from lost fights. The one in a million upset is not worth all the lost mojo, which is needed for the weekly contest.

Also, Harmony rarely helps, even when it's very lopsided. In an otherwise even battle, it might help, particularly if it's not in my favor, but I've had 45%+ harmony and still lost battles that I should have narrowly won (due to going first, if for no other reason). It seems like both players usually get their class effect once per girl, and there seems to be no other effect (like there was when the concept was originally introduced).

[GeorgeMTO]

If the gains from an individual battle don't compare well to the weekly ToF rewards, you must have some incredibly high ranking nod. Making top 1000 is only 25 exp more than being 1001+, which is less than two wins for me. The 50k is a little under 9, so that's slightly more of a loss, but not a huge concern. If I win say 5 fights via RNG throughout the week, that's fine by me.

If you're gaining enough mojo that you can make it in the top 100 or higher then it makes sense (200 exp is significantly more wins), otherwise I feel that not trying to win everything possible is even more of a "sure way to stunt your growth".

[Tommy55]

I have assumed that Mojo and Battle Strength are loosely correlated so that losing Mojo will help me get better matchups so even a loss is a win.

 

[Daniele]

15 hours ago, Hollo said:

The crit spread means it's high variance - you could have a long streak of good luck, or of bad. I'm still collecting information on this

Checking harmony % is completely useless IMHO. I don't see any difference, it can be 40%/10% in my favor or vice versa, i can trigger my harmony 0 or 3 times in both scenarios. I know, i know, RNG... but actually i'm pretty sure that harmony doesn't work like it should.

I don't know if i'm the only one who noticed, but it seems that your opponent can trigger his harmony no more than once. He will never crits 2 (or 3) times, no matter what.

Personally i don't even check harmony anymore, only ego, attack and defence.

[_shal_]

3 hours ago, Daniele said:

I don't know if i'm the only one who noticed, but it seems that your opponent can trigger his harmony no more than once. He will never crits 2 (or 3) times, no matter what.

Shhh....  Battle outcomes would be a lot harder to project without that right now.

FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with the number of crits hit by the player. Sure, there's high variance, but on average the numbers look fine to me. Outcomes I'm expecting to happen around 50% of the time (say, at least 2 crits in 6 turns with a 25% likelihood -> 46.6%) in fact do seem to happen around 50% of the time, etc..

Edited August 7, 2018 by _shal_

[Hentaicles]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Hollo ^~^

[darkone]

Hi guys. What do you think about harmony? I noticed that the approximate chance to trigger the ability is not 50% and about 17.5% per round (both, my and opponent`s turn). And this chance is not even 25% if the chances are considered separate. Another observation - if our chances are 30...33 to 20...17, then I probably never activate the ability, unlike my opponent

[Hollo]

On 8/8/2018 at 3:24 PM, darkone said:

What do you think about harmony? I noticed that the approximate chance to trigger the ability is not 50% and about 17.5% per round (both, my and opponent`s turn).

This has been my sense as well, but I never got around to measuring it, until now.

For the last few hours, I've been letting arena battles run without skipping, counting the total hits, and the crits. So far: 236 blows, and 33 were crits. That's a bit over 1/8th - close to 14%, in fact. Which is very far from 50%, enough for me to claim this is a bug.

(A typical fight lasts about 12-15 hits, so this is roughly 16 fights. I don't do all three every half hour.)

[[CNO] BananaJoy]

i wouldnt give harmoney not too much attention. ok u need a solid base but even with lower harmony u can cast ur ability. so think its not that important.

[Daniele]

1 hour ago, Hollo said:

This has been my sense as well, but I never got around to measuring it, until now.

For the last few hours, I've been letting arena battles run without skipping, counting the total hits, and the crits. So far: 236 blows, and 33 were crits. That's a bit over 1/8th - close to 14%, in fact. Which is very far from 50%, enough for me to claim this is a bug.

(A typical fight lasts about 12-15 hits, so this is roughly 16 fights. I don't do all three every half hour.)

As i said, your opponent can trigger his harmony no more than once per battle. It's only natural that the number of crits is very far from 50%, since your opponent's crit % is limited to 1, even if he has 45% and you only 5%.

[[CNO] BananaJoy]

thats why hc r so op. by the way why u think ability is only once triggered?