Randomize Arena Opponents

[YoyoHH]

This topic came up recently in another thread, and I thought I'd give it its own discussion.  As far as I am aware, the current game design randomly draws arena opponents for you based upon 2 factors: your level and your mojo.  If another player is within 15 levels of you and also within 1,000 mojo of you, then they are placed in a pool of potential opponents.  Each time the arena refreshes, 3 opponents are chosen randomly from this pool.  If there are less than 3 players in this pool, then the game will assign a bot.  If anything I've stated above is incorrect, I apologize and would love if someone could point out the correct information regarding the system.  I currently have 2 problems with the system in its current form.

1) The pool of potential opponents is potentially very small.  In my case, I have a consistent group of 19 players who I fight.  Looking at the level and mojo range, it is virtually impossible for this group to change.  If I win 90% of my fights and avoid all losses, I can climb to the top of this group (I have done this, reaching #3 of 19).  But at that point my mojo gains from wins becomes very small (because all my opponents are below me), allowing them to catch up.  I can be at the top of this group, but not climb above it.  If I lose 100% of my fights, I can fall near the bottom of this group (I have purposely tried this, dropping to #17 of 19).  But at that point my mojo losses become very small (because all of my opponents are above me), and I drop really slowly.  I can be at the bottom of the group, but it would take weeks to drop out of it (waiting for all of my opponents to climb 1,000 mojo points ahead of me, which also means they must be active, winning, and climbing the mojo ladder).

2) The bigger problem, by far, is that the current system punishes you for being good. 

Lets say Player A works hard to get top level girls, buys top level equipment, pays to maximize his stats, and analyzes and sets a quality battle team and character.  He will likely win in the arena and climb the mojo ladder.  But climbing hurts him.  Eventually Player A reaches a point where all of his opponents are also top-tier players, and his success chance against them is pretty set due to their various level ranges.

Let's say Player B is a moron.  No stat upgrades, shit gear, sets his Alpha to the girl with the biggest tits even though she's the wrong class.  This guy will probably lose a lot in the arena and drop down the mojo ladder.  But dropping helps him.  Eventually Player B will reach a point where all of his opponents are also idiots, and his success chance against them is just as high as Player A's.

So, in the long run, upgrading your stats and buying great gear and getting the best girls does virtually nothing for your success chance in the arena.  The best players in the world will win in the arena at virtually the same rate as the worst players.

2 suggestions for fixing this problem

1) The obvious solution is to address mojo.  We could eliminate it completely, as it currently does nothing.  But let's assume the upcoming leagues are going to make it useful.  In that case, simply eliminate mojo as a condition of setting opponents.  Let the best players beat the crap out of the worst players within their level range.  If Player A and Player B are within 15 levels, let them pull each other as opponents.  That way Player A will be rewarded for being good, as he will be stronger than most of his opponents.  Player B will be punished, because most of his opponents will be stronger than him (and rightfully so, he should learn to play).  Currently, if you lose in the arena, you get a message saying you should upgrade your stats and gear to get better.  If we made this change, that message would actually be correct.

2) Another option would be to scale the arena rewards.  Give better arena rewards to players higher ranked.  This would incentivize players to get better but still allow for a competitive arena.  If Player A and Player B both win around 75% of their fights, then right now it is unfair (they both get the same amount of rewards even though Player A clearly is more invested).  But if Player A was rewarded with more xp, more money, or higher tiered affection items and boosters, he would have less to bitch about.

Think about it this way.  If a professional tennis player competes in a tournament against other professional tennis players, he will win some and lose some (say he wins 4 matches out of 5).  If my 10-year old kid plays in a tennis tournament against other kids, he will also win some and lose some (say he also wins 4 matches out of 5).  Should they both get the same reward?  Of course not, that's ridiculous.  The professional gets like a million dollars and my kid gets to have ice cream on the way home.  The rewards scale appropriately.

I would love to hear some logic-based, reasonable discussion on this issue.  All too often the forum is full of crazy bickering, whining and complaining, and far too little rational discussion.  If I'm off base or have misinterpreted the facts, I'd love to hear why and how.  If others agree with me that the system in place is unfair, I would hope to hear a developer response to my suggestions.  This is a place for suggestions, and this is not a stupid, random "make the drop rate higher!" suggestion.  This is (I hope) a legitimate and well-thought out concern that has now been communicated to the developers in the proper forum.  I am optimistically hoping to see transparency and communication on their behalf.

Edited May 24, 2018 by YoyoHH

[PlusIon]

great. Now I want some Ice Cream. 

Well said. I have not tried to climb or fall in the standings because to me, PvP is only a cash grab and an occasional contest win.  The changes you suggest will force me to pay attention to the PvP dynamic. 

[jelom]

4 hours ago, YoyoHH said:

As far as I am aware, the current game design randomly draws arena opponents for you based upon 2 factors: your level and your mojo.  If another player is within 15 levels of you and also within 1,000 mojo of you, then they are placed in a pool of potential opponents.  Each time the arena refreshes, 3 opponents are chosen randomly from this pool.  If there are less than 3 players in this pool, then the game will assign a bot.

Today I have fought a player with around 1500 more mojo than me, and 11 positions ahead of me,  so the rule about the 1000 mojo maximum diference should be updated. Perhaps we are also opponents assigned based in the closeness in the mojo rank table.

By the way, I am seeing lately very little diference in mojo for players around the 100th +-20 rank so a good or bad streak can made you go up or down a lot of places for every 4 hours time range. You go up 10-20 places,  the players became thougher and the same day you lose again that places, so the opponents are easier to beat again (by narrow margin) so the cicle start again. Before that I was gaining ranks more slowly but the gains were more stable.

[YoyoHH]

22 minutes ago, jelom said:

Today I have fought a player with around 1500 more mojo than me, and 11 positions ahead of me,  so the rule about the 1000 mojo maximum diference should be updated. Perhaps we are also opponents assigned based in the closeness in the mojo rank table.

Thanks, jelom.  In another thread, it was Chthugha who posted that all opponents needed to be within 1,000 mojo.  I admit to not knowing where he came by this information.  Perhaps he can confirm this and source his material for us (when he checks this thread to ensure we are playing nicely)?

I can confirm that, at least in my case, all of my regular opponents fall within both 1,000 mojo and 16 ranks of me.  Although I will also admit that the gap between my "group" and other players within our level range is huge, both in mojo amount and ranking number.  There are no players in my level range ranked above my group, and the nearest player (in my level range) behind us is 79 ranks and 4,412 mojo beneath me.  I'll admit that's a lot of room for error.

[PlusIon]

My data shows 1000 +- mojo from me and 15 +- Levels. I have been keeping track of every fight for a week. I have about 500 battles. I did learn that in order to look up names in the table, I needed to use their ID and not their name. There are duplicate names all over the tower. 

[Chthugha]

I think that range sometimes gets twisted a bit when your pool becomes really small, but I don't know that for a fact.
I've seen some of those anomalies before, like someone getting a player with 20 levels more.

I am not sure about it, but leagues might be the right incentive to try to get to the top of your group.
I don't know a lot about what they want to do with that though.

[hahero]

Didn't check it thoroughly. But when I did, the opponent with a little higher stat than me is 1000 Mojo (inactive dead or never have touched Arena before).

Sometime I come across someone that got just a little lower than me but killing them give 20-25 Mojo, so they must have been +19(?) position higher?

Have never beaten anyone with 5k+ EGO higher yet so don't know how much I will win, don't want to lose mojo so don't test either.

Generally most of my opponent is 1-3 Mojo per kill. But whenever I lose to them it always 20+ Mojo lost.

Considering that I'm quite a new player (my level is quite low, there is a few active player within my level though) and my current mojo, there isn't that many people with that +-15 Level of me so I might be fighting Bots most of the time.

Hope that help, I be keeping an eye of for this thread for the secret formula. But thanks to Norou I have huge advantage to most of the opponent.

 

EDIT: DId a quick check with my refresh 3 opponents. (1) (3) seem to be real player. Level 59 and Level 55. and (2) is a 1000 Mojo level 10 actually but level 68 in Arena.

My level is 68 (maybe I was 67 when Ranking was update).  So it seem that the +-10 is incorrect, maybe +-15 or +-20. (1) (3) stat is correct. The stat of the (2) bot seem to be similar to my stat for my Main stat (Know-How),but since he was a Hardcore, then his Hardcore is same as my Knowhow. His other 2 stat were much lower (like No Stat Upgrade).

 

EDIT 2: It seem like that these Bots is usually exactly your same level. So if you see people same level, chances are they Bot. This second time I got (2) and (3). I can't confirm (2) because his name got a Space in it and a "L" or "i (uppercase)" or "L (lowercase)" in the name and I can't find him. This time though, (2) stat was 300 higher, and (3) stat was 800 lower. It may mean that Bot stat is randomize within +-1000?

Edit 3: It seem that these bot usually give you +1 Mojo. So if you get +1 it most likely Bots. If it +2 or higher than they are within your group(?)

Edited June 2, 2018 by hahero
ediit the post for new info

[Chthugha]

@hahero It's only a bot if the alpha girl has 1 star and has a ridiculous name like Voldemort (they are all based on fictional or real characters).

The second thing is that bots don't have a profile page.
If you click on the name in the battle arena, it will lead you to the profile page of that player.
If you are fighting a bot, it will show this message:

[Mez]

The issue I'm having is explained in detail in this topic:

 

I'm a arguably the person, at least on HentaiHeroes, who is worst hit by the problem described in this topic since I'm currently locked forever in a spot where I never lose even against the players that I meet who are 10 to 15 levels higher than me. And since these wins only gives me between 1 and 3 mojo, I'm basically stuck forever until the league system is implemented.

On 24/05/2018 at 5:53 PM, YoyoHH said:

In that case, simply eliminate mojo as a condition of setting opponents.  Let the best players beat the crap out of the worst players within their level range.  If Player A and Player B are within 15 levels, let them pull each other as opponents.  That way Player A will be rewarded for being good, as he will be stronger than most of his opponents.  Player B will be punished, because most of his opponents will be stronger than him (and rightfully so, he should learn to play).  Currently, if you lose in the arena, you get a message saying you should upgrade your stats and gear to get better.  If we made this change, that message would actually be correct.

This suggestion would certainly complete solve my issue in terms of mojo gain, but still be extremely boring due to always winning vs all the players in my available player pool.

 

A realistic short term solution until leagues are implemented could be to implement a hardcore setting that allows you to compete vs players i.e. 20 levels above you.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Mez
Fixed some mistakes.

[ichigosageda]

I ussually get players from rank 35-155 in tof no bots so far..

[hahero]

Based Chthugha information it mean there are 3 types of Opponent then.

(1) Real ACTIVE Player (people who battle atleast 1 time after Mojo update

(2) Bots - Player that have NO PROFILE, doesn't exist as registration, Game generated

(3) Inactive Player with STAT Boost. Player that is the default 1000 MOJO, stat get boost randomly within 1000+- of your current stat(?) could be +-2000, I see some fake one with 4k,4k, 4k stat. Can't win against those.

Some of these Category (3) type level seem to be either Higher Level or Equal level. I been seeing quite a few with 10+ level higher.

 

UPDATE: Just killed two opponent that give me 28 and 15 Mojo for winning. Checked what MOJO they have and it was about that much different from me. So I guess that how much Mojo you get for winning. That would mean considering maximum 30 Mojo can be win mean that your opponent must be within 30 Mojo higher? While lower can be 1000+-? Or is it +-30 Mojo and +-15 Level otherwise it is (1) bots or (2) 1000 Mojo Player.

Second thing I notice is, I don't think it +-15, it might be +-12 level.

Edited June 3, 2018 by hahero

[BraumII]

I completely agree that it's ridiculous that the current system basically punishes you for having high Mojo. However I feel like it absolutely makes sense to include both Mojo and Level in the Matchmaking. Speaking as someone with decent Mojo, getting 90% autowins because you get matched against ppl much weaker than you shouldn't be how a competitive PVP system works. The problem is that you're not getting rewarded at all for having high Mojo. It looks like they intend to fix this with the leagues, but we've been waiting for them to introduce the league system for quite a long time now and it'll probably be another few weeks at minimum because they still seem to be focusing their efforts on Harem V2. So until they introduce leagues, I feel like your daily PVP rewards should scale with Mojo. They've already introduced a daily rewards system, why not make use of it to solve this problem?

[YoyoHH]

1 hour ago, BraumII said:

getting 90% autowins because you get matched against ppl much weaker than you shouldn't be how a competitive PVP system works

I feel like your daily PVP rewards should scale with Mojo. They've already introduced a daily rewards system, why not make use of it to solve this problem?

Getting autowins against people weaker than you is exactly how a competitive PVP system works, IF all PVP wins are going to earn equal rewards.  But, as your second point indicates, a scaling reward system would likewise solve the problem while maintaining tiered competition.  That's why I included both potential solutions in my original post.  Either reward the top tiered players with easy wins OR with better rewards.  Currently, the system gives them neither.

[hahero]

The reward is scale though, just very small in the hundreds. But you but if you match without considering level I'll be sure to lose to people since people around me are level 100+ higher at the moment. So then you have to scale the stat as well.

Edited June 6, 2018 by hahero

[Guest]

On 5/24/2018 at 6:53 PM, YoyoHH said:

This topic came up recently in another thread, and I thought I'd give it its own discussion.  As far as I am aware, the current game design randomly draws arena opponents for you based upon 2 factors: your level and your mojo.  If another player is within 15 levels of you and also within 1,000 mojo of you, then they are placed in a pool of potential opponents.  Each time the arena refreshes, 3 opponents are chosen randomly from this pool.  If there are less than 3 players in this pool, then the game will assign a bot.  If anything I've stated above is incorrect, I apologize and would love if someone could point out the correct information regarding the system.  I currently have 2 problems with the system in its current form.

1) The pool of potential opponents is potentially very small.  In my case, I have a consistent group of 19 players who I fight.  Looking at the level and mojo range, it is virtually impossible for this group to change.  If I win 90% of my fights and avoid all losses, I can climb to the top of this group (I have done this, reaching #3 of 19).  But at that point my mojo gains from wins becomes very small (because all my opponents are below me), allowing them to catch up.  I can be at the top of this group, but not climb above it.  If I lose 100% of my fights, I can fall near the bottom of this group (I have purposely tried this, dropping to #17 of 19).  But at that point my mojo losses become very small (because all of my opponents are above me), and I drop really slowly.  I can be at the bottom of the group, but it would take weeks to drop out of it (waiting for all of my opponents to climb 1,000 mojo points ahead of me, which also means they must be active, winning, and climbing the mojo ladder).

 

 

- Everything you've said so far is completely true. This is a problem that most of the ELO systems face..

On 5/24/2018 at 6:53 PM, YoyoHH said:

2) The bigger problem, by far, is that the current system punishes you for being good. 

Lets say Player A works hard to get top level girls, buys top level equipment, pays to maximize his stats, and analyzes and sets a quality battle team and character.  He will likely win in the arena and climb the mojo ladder.  But climbing hurts him.  Eventually Player A reaches a point where all of his opponents are also top-tier players, and his success chance against them is pretty set due to their various level ranges.

Let's say Player B is a moron.  No stat upgrades, shit gear, sets his Alpha to the girl with the biggest tits even though she's the wrong class.  This guy will probably lose a lot in the arena and drop down the mojo ladder.  But dropping helps him.  Eventually Player B will reach a point where all of his opponents are also idiots, and his success chance against them is just as high as Player A's.

So, in the long run, upgrading your stats and buying great gear and getting the best girls does virtually nothing for your success chance in the arena.  The best players in the world will win in the arena at virtually the same rate as the worst players.

3

- The point here was that the system gives you harder opponents as your level and mojo increase. This is something that has the purpose of challenging you to upgrade your character and always try to stay on top. Basically, you have to keep upgrading your character and your girls with the same speed, or higher as your opponents do. If you don't, well your opponents win.

On 5/24/2018 at 6:53 PM, YoyoHH said:

2 suggestions for fixing this problem

1) The obvious solution is to address mojo.  We could eliminate it completely, as it currently does nothing.  But let's assume the upcoming leagues are going to make it useful.  In that case, simply eliminate mojo as a condition of setting opponents.  Let the best players beat the crap out of the worst players within their level range.  If Player A and Player B are within 15 levels, let them pull each other as opponents.  That way Player A will be rewarded for being good, as he will be stronger than most of his opponents.  Player B will be punished, because most of his opponents will be stronger than him (and rightfully so, he should learn to play).  Currently, if you lose in the arena, you get a message saying you should upgrade your stats and gear to get better.  If we made this change, that message would actually be correct.

 

- We can think about this. Wider the mojo range can also lead to same results, but it's a bad example.

On 5/24/2018 at 6:53 PM, YoyoHH said:

2) Another option would be to scale the arena rewards.  Give better arena rewards to players higher ranked.  This would incentivize players to get better but still allow for a competitive arena.  If Player A and Player B both win around 75% of their fights, then right now it is unfair (they both get the same amount of rewards even though Player A clearly is more invested).  But if Player A was rewarded with more xp, more money, or higher tiered affection items and boosters, he would have less to bitch about.

Think about it this way.  If a professional tennis player competes in a tournament against other professional tennis players, he will win some and lose some (say he wins 4 matches out of 5).  If my 10-year old kid plays in a tennis tournament against other kids, he will also win some and lose some (say he also wins 4 matches out of 5).  Should they both get the same reward?  Of course not, that's ridiculous.  The professional gets like a million dollars and my kid gets to have ice cream on the way home.  The rewards scale appropriately.

I would love to hear some logic-based, reasonable discussion on this issue.  All too often the forum is full of crazy bickering, whining and complaining, and far too little rational discussion.  If I'm off base or have misinterpreted the facts, I'd love to hear why and how.  If others agree with me that the system in place is unfair, I would hope to hear a developer response to my suggestions.  This is a place for suggestions, and this is not a stupid, random "make the drop rate higher!" suggestion.  This is (I hope) a legitimate and well-thought out concern that has now been communicated to the developers in the proper forum.  I am optimistically hoping to see transparency and communication on their behalf.

- This is also reasonable. Our design team may have to think about it. We're working on solving this problem, though. So far we can't give more details on this, but stay tuned. Please.

Thank you,
Jessie Kinkoid

[hahero]

Got my first level +15. Always thought it was +12 level but I got a level 90 (I was 75)

[YoyoHH]

Thank you, Jessie, for reading this thread and responding.  I was hoping for some more details, but I'm happy knowing my concern has been successfully communicated and the development team is aware of the problem.  All we can hope for now is that a fix to the system will be able to be implemented.

[_shal_]

10 hours ago, hahero said:

Got my first level +15. Always thought it was +12 level but I got a level 90 (I was 75)

From my observations it's +/- 20% of your current level for players who are still at the lower end of the game, e.g. a level 50 player will be matched with opponents at levels 40 to 60, and so on. So not a surprise that you're facing a +15 opponent now that you've reached level 75. (I think you could have first met one at level 71, since the 20% seem to be getting rounded up.)

 

By the way, over the last few days I've been offered three matches where I was in line to win 32 mojo. I didn't try to see if that means that losing a battle like that would have resulted in 0 mojo loss. (I was way outclassed in all stats, so losing would have been certain.) Just surprised me that that's possible since obviously the minimum amount to win is set at 1 mojo.

Edited June 8, 2018 by _shal_

[Daniele]

20 hours ago, _shal_ said:

By the way, over the last few days I've been offered three matches where I was in line to win 32 mojo. I didn't try to see if that means that losing a battle like that would have resulted in 0 mojo loss.

Nope, losing a 32 mojo battle results in 1 mojo loss.

A little OT: now that i'm level 236 (actually 237 now) i'm facing lvl 251 opponents, and if you win you gain +6 aff & exp. Nice, i though that +5 was the best battle reward

[Chthugha]

1 hour ago, Daniele said:

Nope, losing a 32 mojo battle results in 1 mojo loss.

A little OT: now that i'm level 236 (actually 237 now) i'm facing lvl 251 opponents, and if you win you gain +6 aff & exp. Nice, i though that +5 was the best battle reward

The reward goes up by 1 every 50 levels of your opponents.
So 8 will be the max reward, if this pattern holds up to the end.