Remove Specialization Circle (Arena)!

[wthvr]

The new combat system has to be the worst introduction since the change to affection. The rock-paper-scissor really takes a lot of competitiveness out of "PVP" as I do not even have to try to fight someone that is close to my ego if I am weak against his specialization - I have over 100k Ego, but there literally is no point in fighting my weak specialization even if he is 10-15k Ego below me because I will lose 80% of the time. With how rank works I win <5 mojo for a fight but lose 25+, so if I want to gain mojo I basically have to take a fight with over 80% chance to win (if we take the +5/-25 mojo as average gain/loss).

If we assume equal distribution of classes (which is not the case, I will come to that in a moment) and equal strength of people in arena, the system basically disincentivices to fight one player each rotation as you will not be able to beat him simply due to weakness. The question is - WHY WOULD YOU WANT PLAYERS NOT TO FIGHT EVERY PERSON?

Before you could literally fight everybody (maybe 95% of the people) as there only were a very limited amout of people who had significantly more ego than you. Now it makes only sense to fight 66% of the people at best.

 

And now the real deal - with the hardcore being the only specialization at launch, most of the players are hardcore. And with most in higher level I literally mean 50%+ (simply check the tower rankings). So every player that happens to be knowhow is fucked - you are weak against hardcore AND hardcore makes up over 50% of the ladder - this means I can not even take half of the fights simply because of bad luck with specialization. Everyone who is charm on the other hands, has it super easy, because he basically has freewins for 50% of the fights.
Now, I know there is a free specialization reroll, but this includes a HUGE investment - I have to completely change my gear, I have to completely change my girls (and if you check the best girls, for charm you literally have to have three times 5star lineup for optimal setup, just to upgrade abrael to 5 stars is over 30k affection for me - this means over 12.5 million just for the affection, not including upgrade cost) and potentially you have to get your shop stats up to date if you only focussed on your main stat.

 

I know that it is doable to change specialization with some effort, but why would I even have to do that just to get an advantage/not get fucked? Not sure how one can miss that specialization are unevenly represented and that this will have a huge effect for late game players. The entire weakness circle is so toxic for the game, even if specializations would be evenly distributed as it disincentivices certain fights, which should not be the case in that frequency (literally one out of each arena rotation should not be fought). Just remove the weakness circle and continue with the pvp updates (Luck system with block/heal/crit) - even though block will be hands down the best luck effect if it can block the other luck effects.

[Asherandai]

16 minutes ago, wthvr said:

Everyone who is charm on the other hands, has it super easy, because he basically has freewins for 50% of the fights.

This is simply not the case. I am charm and most of my opponents are know-how. 

Additionally Criticals rule the day, regardless of specialisation. Your critique is incorrect on almost every level.

[casey]

Actually changing your specialization is easy, but make sure you want to do it.

 A second change will cost you 600 Kobans.

As for not engaging in fights you cannot win, so be it, you will have a choice of 3 new opponents 30 minutes later.

Also isn't there a feature where you can challenge players to a fight or is that no longer in effect.

I remember before the pvp change some player bragging on one of the threads about how they never lost in

pvp confrontations, well I looked him up on the tower of fame and challenged him to a pvp battle nether less

I crushed in the battle as I was about 100 levels more advanced then them.

 

 

[wthvr]

1 hour ago, Asherandai said:

This is simply not the case. I am charm and most of my opponents are know-how. 

Additionally Criticals rule the day, regardless of specialisation. Your critique is incorrect on almost every level.

Thanks for the indepth criticism. I did check tower of fame before the rework and well over 50% of the players were hardcore - they now made it much harder to check for specialization, but if you take any random page (of the first couple of sites for each ToF category) you will see that even with the resets (which eliminated all inactive players and therefore a lot of vanilla hardcore enemies) there still is an overabundance of hardcore (most likely due to the fact that a lot of the vanilla players are still active/less likely to quit). I did the work nevertheless and there still is an obvious imbalance - it currently is roughly 40%+ hardcore players and slightly below 30% for each charm and knowhow. As I only worked through a couple pages (<1000 counts) this might not be the best statisically evidence, but should be good enough for an estimate.
So if you say that your opponents are mostly know-how you either have selective perception or the system is rigged and makes you face your weakness more often - which I hardly doubt. I mean if you fight in lower to medium levels (< level 200) then there should not be much of an imbalance as the hardcore imbalance comes from the initial game where you only had hardcore specialization and charm/know-how were not in the game, but for END GAME (~ top 500-1000 for XP) it is pretty apparent that the overall population is highly biased towards hardcore.

And yes, random crits decide the fights, but with a 20% damage amplifier for weakness crits are especially important as the double damage from crits scales with the 20% and if you have a crit (2x damage) vs a crit that has +20% damage a single crit from each side will be a MASSIVE difference in damage and basically is an extra attack for the advantageous specialization. On average, specialization strength will give you one free attack every 5 attacks and nearly one free attack every crit - and this is why specialization circle is so overpowering as you HAVE to be significantly stronger (roughly 20% to even out your disadvantage) or you HAVE to crit more than the opponent - which on average will not happen and if you rely on lucky crits over a good amout of fights, you will not get them.

Edited March 23, 2018 by wthvr

[Hotless]

I am a casual player, i am not a theorycrafter and i don't care about classes or who has advantage over me and what not, when i go to the arena i just fight everyone and i don't care at all if i win or lose and why should i we get 3 opponents every 30 minutes so if we were robots and didn't sleep or go to work or whatever that's 132 opponents every day but yeah no one in the world can login exactly every 30 minutes to fight those 3 opponents in the arena, so the previous system of spamming your combativity to the arena is far superior, anyway as far as mojo going as i said above i don't care if i win or lose, the result is mostly getting 1 win and 2 losses, earning 5-25 mojo and losing 10-50 mojo, in the ladder i am national first with 477 wins, the second is at 354 wins and the third is at 188 wins so with so many wins ahead i should be first in mojo rankings right ?? well wrong, i am ranked 8th!!! So my suggestion is with each win we get +24 mojo and with each loss we get +12 mojo, that way not only the player who's first in pvp wins will also be first in mojo rankings which is quite logical but it also nulifies the need for classes because all players will fight all opponents in the arena.

[Asherandai]

1 hour ago, wthvr said:

Thanks for the indepth criticism. I did check tower of fame before the rework and well over 50% of the players were hardcore - they now made it much harder to check for specialization, but if you take any random page (of the first couple of sites for each ToF category) you will see that even with the resets (which eliminated all inactive players and therefore a lot of vanilla hardcore enemies) there still is an overabundance of hardcore (most likely due to the fact that a lot of the vanilla players are still active/less likely to quit). I did the work nevertheless and there still is an obvious imbalance - it currently is roughly 40%+ hardcore players and slightly below 30% for each charm and knowhow. As I only worked through a couple pages (<1000 counts) this might not be the best statisically evidence, but should be good enough for an estimate.
So if you say that your opponents are mostly know-how you either have selective perception or the system is rigged and makes you face your weakness more often - which I hardly doubt. I mean if you fight in lower to medium levels (< level 200) then there should not be much of an imbalance as the hardcore imbalance comes from the initial game where you only had hardcore specialization and charm/know-how were not in the game, but for END GAME (~ top 500-1000 for XP) it is pretty apparent that the overall population is highly biased towards hardcore.

Funny thing about complainers, they have a tendancy to make shit up and think that no one will check. Well see here's the thing, I did check. And you know what? Top 500 players (Edit: By experience accumulated):

Know-How = 180

Charm = 168

Hardcore = 152

I think you are the one with selective perception. 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Asherandai

[wthvr]

1 hour ago, Asherandai said:

Funny thing about complainers, they have a tendancy to make shit up and think that no one will check. Well see here's the thing, I did check. And you know what? Top 500 players (Edit: By experience accumulated):

Know-How = 180

Charm = 168

Hardcore = 152

I think you are the one with selective perception. 

This, then, might be a difference in the nutaku vs hentaiheroes version, which I absolutely did not expect. The numbers I used are not made up and it is indeed slightly above 40% hardcore, and slightly below - pretty even - 30% charm and knowhow. Even with the slight overabundance of hardcore I am pretty certain that I face at least 50% hardcore in arena. You stated above that you mostly face know-how. Given that apparently all specializations are evenly distributed in your version, this seems rather strange as expected outcome would be pretty much 1 of each specialization per run - on average. If you are certain that you face your weak specialization more than the average distribution allows as well then this might be something to follow and gather more data.

[Asherandai]

7 minutes ago, wthvr said:

This, then, might be a difference in the nutaku vs hentaiheroes version, which I absolutely did not expect. The numbers I used are not made up and it is indeed slightly above 40% hardcore, and slightly below - pretty even - 30% charm and knowhow. Even with the slight overabundance of hardcore I am pretty certain that I face at least 50% hardcore in arena. You stated above that you mostly face know-how. Given that apparently all specializations are evenly distributed in your version, this seems rather strange as expected outcome would be pretty much 1 of each specialization per run - on average. If you are certain that you face your weak specialization more than the average distribution allows as well then this might be something to follow and gather more data.

I haven't checked those within my level range (and I don't want to cause it doesn't matter), so maybe in my specific range there is a slightly higher proportion of Know-How. Or maybe I'm just unlucky with match ups, bad luck wouldn't be anything new to me. It is rare that don't have at least 1 Know-How opponent, and maybe 30-40% of the time I'll have two or three.

But as I said: It does not matter. Criticals rule the day regardless of specialisation. Its rare to see both me and my opponent have exactly the same number of crits. Whoever gets more crits wins.

[wolvix]

I like the classes, they are creating a system where your battle stats are not the only influence to win or lose a battle.

Besides, they give the first class change for free. so you cant really say they are after your money 100% , just the adjustment is made to make it more fun for everyone

Edited March 23, 2018 by wolvix

[eolsunder]

again who cares, mojo only means something for the number 1 ranked player for bragging rights, it means absolutely nothing else to the other players. You don't get anything for having higher or lower mojo. if you lose you don't lose money, kobans, girls, or equipment. Its 3 free checks each 1/2 hour to get a little extra cash and items maybe. That's it. You don't get special gear from being at a higher rank. You don't get special girls for being ranked 300 instead of 400. You don't get a daily allowance based on your mojo level. It means nothing. Losing or gaining it means nothing. In fact maybe if you lose mojo its even better? Do you get ranked against weaker opponents to win in the future? who knows. All I know is, when I lose a battle, my mojo goes down some, I might drop 1 in the rankings , and absolutely nothing else happens. 

[Yamamura]

I wish I can go up against Hardcore players! I play on HH and I only see Charm and Know How (with me being Charm). Four days ago might have been the last I've seen a Hardcore and that is no joke. I don't even bother fighting Know How, making the latter climb a real challenge and not in a good way. When I'm fighting my own class, being Charm, there's the amazing Crit BS I deal with. Having more than 30k Ego Vs the same class can still net me a loss due to the fun Crit system we have. With the Rock, Paper, Scissors in play, I can definitely say with confidence that it causes a lot of problems at high Rank.

There are more changes to come so we won't see any changes until all the paches they plain to release gets implemented. The Devs changed how fighting Bosses work to give out free battles in the Area, gives us more opportunities to gain Money and Affection. Both fighting Bosses and battling in the Area are important in order to level our girls. Mojo might be "useless" to some, but the fact remains that more win you get, the better you can manage your Harem.

[sentinel003]

I also do not like this, as I also lost some fights to people under me 20-30k ego. It's not just ego, also the other stats were higher than the opponent I lost to. It wasn't always against the class I am weak against.

[SomeOddThing]

I don't like it either. Being based on just your class type is boring and predictable.

It might be more interesting if it were based on the girls in your lineup and when the come out. That would provide incentive to not just use girls that match your assigned class. 

For example the main girl for player 1 is Abriel and Bunny for player two. The advantage would go to player with Abriel. The second girl out for player 1 is princess Agate and Arcana for player two. So then it's Romance and Experianced vs Shagger and Shagger so now the match up is even. Then the final girls come out and let's say it's Romance Experianced and Shagger vs Shagger Shagger and Romance. Advantage player two now as the first two cancel out and the third holds an advantage.

[YoyoHH]

18 minutes ago, SomeOddThing said:

I don't like it either. Being based on just your class type is boring and predictable.

It might be more interesting if it were based on the girls in your lineup and when the come out. That would provide incentive to not just use girls that match your assigned class. 

For example the main girl for player 1 is Abriel and Bunny for player two. The advantage would go to player with Abriel. The second girl out for player 1 is princess Agate and Arcana for player two. So then it's Romance and Experianced vs Shagger and Shagger so now the match up is even. Then the final girls come out and let's say it's Romance Experianced and Shagger vs Shagger Shagger and Romance. Advantage player two now as the first two cancel out and the third holds an advantage.

This is an interesting concept, and I'm all for giving girls and battle teams more customization.  However, this specific design I believe is flawed.  You would basically need to look at all 3 girls of your opponent, then swap out all 3 of your girls to have the right customizations in the right order to counter your opponents' girls.  Seems like way too much work for every fight.  In addition, it would guarantee you a 20% bonus in every fight, which just seems unfair (granted, it would be unfair in your favor, but still).

[YoyoHH]

14 hours ago, eolsunder said:

again who cares, mojo only means something for the number 1 ranked player for bragging rights, it means absolutely nothing else to the other players. You don't get anything for having higher or lower mojo. if you lose you don't lose money, kobans, girls, or equipment. Its 3 free checks each 1/2 hour to get a little extra cash and items maybe. That's it. You don't get special gear from being at a higher rank. You don't get special girls for being ranked 300 instead of 400. You don't get a daily allowance based on your mojo level. It means nothing. Losing or gaining it means nothing. In fact maybe if you lose mojo its even better? Do you get ranked against weaker opponents to win in the future? who knows. All I know is, when I lose a battle, my mojo goes down some, I might drop 1 in the rankings , and absolutely nothing else happens. 

This.  100% this.  Every single time I see posts complaining about the unfairness of the Arena or the endless debate over mojo loss I want to scream this.

The Arena is free 3 chances at a little bit of cash or a small item.  It's like 3 free rolls of Great Pachinko every 30 minutes.  Increase your stats and gear so that your free chance has a slighter higher chance at success.  If you lose it means absolutely nothing.  If you don't play, you get absolutely nothing.  It boggles my mind why anyone would ever skip an Arena fight to avoid mojo loss.  Yes, you will sometimes lose to a weak opponent due to luck and RNG.  But you will also occasionally win against a stronger opponent due to luck and RNG, but not if you skip all your fights against stronger opponents.

[SomeOddThing]

15 minutes ago, YoyoHH said:

This is an interesting concept, and I'm all for giving girls and battle teams more customization.  However, this specific design I believe is flawed.  You would basically need to look at all 3 girls of your opponent, then swap out all 3 of your girls to have the right customizations in the right order to counter your opponents' girls.  Seems like way too much work for every fight.  In addition, it would guarantee you a 20% bonus in every fight, which just seems unfair (granted, it would be unfair in your favor, but still).

Good point I didn't take into account the fact that you could switch out your team to counter your opponent. Obviously another change would be needed. Few ideas to fix that off the top of my head with out thinking to hard (don't want to hurt myself). 

1. You can no longer see your opponents line up prior to fighting them.

2. Since on the first screen you can only see the main girl once you select an opponent you can't back out.

3. Opponents are assign randomly and not visable ahead of time.

4. Once you start the first fight of a set of three your team is locked until all three fights are completed. 

I'm sure there's other issues as well though I havn't thought of.

Edited March 24, 2018 by SomeOddThing

[GameRaven]

1 minute ago, SomeOddThing said:

3. Opponents are assign randomly and not visable ahead of time.

That alone would be a great change. This way you must always take the risk since you never know your opponent beforehand.

[Asherandai]

Attempting to not be an asshole for once, I would just like to voice my objection to this entire so called issue. There is nothing wrong with the rock, paper, scissors format, and all these ideas people are throwing out are a million times worse.

That's it, I'm not gonna look at this thread again else I end up insulting more people.

[eolsunder]

yea many games have such formats, it isn't anything new, it isn't anything overpowering. All the old rpgs had archer > fighter > mage > archer or something similar, many online games have the same. Your equal vs 33% of the opponents, your stronger vs 33%, your weaker vs 33%, overall, nothing new.

[trunks2585]

Personally I like the rock paper scissors format, almost any game of this nature uses it. (Kingdom hearts union cross, puzzle and dragons, fire emblem heroes, etc.)  That being said those systems also have more depth to them.  If the devs really wanted to add another layer of strategy to the combat, don't make it automatic and add in the chance to activate skills on the girls.  Again this is how the other examples I mentioned do it, and part of why their combat systems work.

As for nothing to gain or loose, technically right now there's the winning daily fights reward, and they have talked about more rewards, so while it's true right now that you don't loose much by losing, there will be contests in the future where the complaints will come off as more valid because there is something more at stake.

[YoyoHH]

10 minutes ago, trunks2585 said:

Personally I like the rock paper scissors format, almost any game of this nature uses it. (Kingdom hearts union cross, puzzle and dragons, fire emblem heroes, etc.)  That being said those systems also have more depth to them.  If the devs really wanted to add another layer of strategy to the combat, don't make it automatic and add in the chance to activate skills on the girls.  Again this is how the other examples I mentioned do it, and part of why their combat systems work.

As for nothing to gain or loose, technically right now there's the winning daily fights reward, and they have talked about more rewards, so while it's true right now that you don't loose much by losing, there will be contests in the future where the complaints will come off as more valid because there is something more at stake.

Both good points.  I would love to see more to combat, allowing the players some actual choice in setting their battle team or making their attacks.  Currently, the entire battle formula is just  "plug in your highest stat girls and roll the dice."

Obviously, if future updates include actual punishment for losses, then it changes things.  But, under the current system, you can only win from participating in arena fights.  Avoiding fights gains you nothing while simultaneously losing out on potential rewards.