League leader tiebreakers

[Awesomasaur]

I have a suggestion on how to handle the top of the leagues where there are multiple people who defeat everyone in the league.
The TL;DR is - at the end of the league competition week, there is a weighted lottery for the people who are tied for the lead by defeating everyone in the league; with a higher chance of winning the earlier you defeated everyone.

Right now, if the first person spends the 3780 kobans and finishes in 2 minutes and 24 seconds, and the second person finishes in 2 minutes 27 seconds; the three seconds of additional website loading time has cost that person 9,000 kobans and 50 milion cash in the D3 league. They still get 5,760 kobans, but that is a big difference between first and second.

The system I'd propose is that they would both end up with the same chance of getting the top prize, but it's still in their interest to race to the finish, since Kinkoid would still like them to spend their Kobans.

I'm going to simplify the percentages in my example and I'll leave it for people smarter than me to come up with a better lottery system.

Let's say 5 people have defeated everyone in their league; two of them (Doggies and HornDog) finished it in the first 30 minutes of the competition.  One person didn't want to wake up in the middle of the night to fight, so he (worm) started and finished when he woke up 3 hours after the weekly league launched, and the last two people finished on the last day (Bananda and Booger) but they didn't finish at the last minute - they only refilled fights a few times.
All 5 of them would get 100 'balls in the hopper' for being tied for first; Doggies and HornDog get 100 extra shots for finishing right away.  Worm gets 80 extra (loses 20 along the time curve), and Banana gets 4 extra, Booger gets 1.

So Doggies has 200/785 chance (25.5%) Horndog has the same. Worm has 180/785 (22.9%), Banana has 104/785 (13.2%) and Booger has 101/785 (12.8%)

I think this would lead to more people trying to 'win' the league, therefore using Kobans for boosters, and refills to maximize their chances in the lottery.  You also have people more engaged than just for the first 20 minutes after the league launches. 

What are your thoughts?  Would people be less happy with a lottery than a race?

[Habi]

that is just bullshit. tieing competition rewards to rng is the worst i can imagine. that's even worse than what we have now. the current system is severely broken but at least you know where you are and what you get once you're done.

[Chthugha]

I don't agree Habi. It is actually better. It will solve the rushing. Nobody in their right mind will rush if there is a chance of not getting what you are after. This will solve the main problem, even though that was not OP's intention.

[Awesomasaur]

I think some people would still rush.  I'm not a high level player, and I'm just in the S2 league, where it REALLY doesn't make sense to rush, and I still see people using Kobans early for a lead they aren't going to hold.  At D2 and D3, some people would still spend the Kobans for an edge in the likelihood they would win.  (They also want to see their name at the top of the list for the week).  I don't think it is Pure RNG when it is weighted for how long it took you to finish. 

My main problem with the current implementation, is vastly different rewards for accomplishing the same task in approximately the same amount of time.

[Habi]

4 hours ago, Chthugha said:

I don't agree Habi. It is actually better. It will solve the rushing. Nobody in their right mind will rush if there is a chance of not getting what you are after. This will solve the main problem, even though that was not OP's intention.

you are implying people on the internet act with reason. it won't solve anything because silly people will always be silly people and there will always be rushers. the only thing that can bring back leagues to normality is fixing the club boost bug. it will stop people with reason from rushing and stop silly (weak) rushers from winning.

[Chthugha]

1 hour ago, Habi said:

the only thing that can bring back leagues to normality is fixing the club boost bug. it will stop people with reason from rushing and stop silly (weak) rushers from winning.

1. Remove the huge koban rewards
2. Make refills way more expensive
3. Allow everyone to do only 1/7th of the total fights you can do per day
4. Get rid of tiebreakers completely and just add the prizes and divide by the number of players on the same point total

And I could go on like that.

1 hour ago, Habi said:

you are implying people on the internet act with reason. it won't solve anything because silly people will always be silly people and there will always be rushers.

The fact that there are idiots that will still use huge amount of kobans when there's no certainty it will give them first place or even top 4, doesn't take away that a normal player would never risk using that many kobans only to get screwed by the RNG system who does the tie breaker. I'm not saying this system described is the answer, but it would at least act as deterrent some what, and that's more than we have now.
Idiots should never be the reason why something is a bad solution.

[jelom]

On 5/19/2019 at 3:45 PM, Habi said:

the only thing that can bring back leagues to normality is fixing the club boost bug. it will stop people with reason from rushing and stop silly (weak) rushers from winning.

It is in this week patch notes:

Leagues

• Club bonuses defense will be applied in the Leagues

[Taorin]

On 5/19/2019 at 8:31 AM, Chthugha said:

2. Make refills way more expensive

I would love to see this added so it increases progressively the more times you buy refills per week. Like the first would cost 200 kobans, the second 400, the third 600 and so on. It wouldn't hurt to much to buy a refill or two but it would completely stop people from rushing to first place in the first hour.

[Awesomasaur]

5 hours ago, Taorin said:

I would love to see this added so it increases progressively the more times you buy refills per week. Like the first would cost 200 kobans, the second 400, the third 600 and so on. It wouldn't hurt to much to buy a refill or two but it would completely stop people from rushing to first place in the first hour.

That is a very, very elegant solution.  I approve this idea.

[Chthugha]

6 hours ago, Taorin said:

I would love to see this added so it increases progressively the more times you buy refills per week. Like the first would cost 200 kobans, the second 400, the third 600 and so on. It wouldn't hurt to much to buy a refill or two but it would completely stop people from rushing to first place in the first hour.

It's what I suggested before as well in a completely different thread. I just doubt very much it will happen.

[SpinelesS]

8 hours ago, Taorin said:

I would love to see this added so it increases progressively the more times you buy refills per week. Like the first would cost 200 kobans, the second 400, the third 600 and so on. It wouldn't hurt to much to buy a refill or two but it would completely stop people from rushing to first place in the first hour.

I personally am not a fan of this. Though that's only because I am lazy.

I don't rush or anything, but if when I come on I'm at 12/15 turns I will buy those last three just so I can pay 12 kobans to use all my attacks. Maybe if it increased cost was set on a 8hr timer or something, then it wouldn't effect me

I personally like the Prize pool idea (so if 3 people all get the same first score, the prizes for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd is pooled together and then split between the three)

 

I don't see that happening either though as I have to assume the idea of spending kobans to get 1st place is intentional (or else they would have gone by longest play time like the contests in activities do)

Edited May 21, 2019 by SpinelesS

[fisticuz]

8 hours ago, SpinelesS said:

but if when I come on I'm at 12/15 turns I will buy those last three just so I can pay 12 kobans to use all my attacks.

This. Especially since I got the monthly card that lets you use full combativity at once for free. 

[ClubNutte]

What about taking last season''s ranking into account?

1. players who are new to the league
2. players who have never been in a higher league
3. demoted players, ordered by their ranking in the previous season

(3. is my favorite, it would make it a little less boring for the 'pros' to get demoted and conserve a chance of winning)

But frankly, I'm pretty sure, that kinkoid won't change anything. All those shiny kobans ...

[Barf]

How about a tiebreaker that sorts people according to how many times they used a refill? Secondary tiebreaker being anything related to their harem - number of girls, overall bonus, a number derived from how well Charm player developed Charm girls... anything tied to account development, not to internet connection speed.

Oh, wait, that would detract from buy kobans buy kobans buy kobans policy...

 

All right, second approach:

* Refilling has a progressive cooldown, starting from 2 minutes and then +2 minutes with each refill. or from 1 minute to +1 minute / refill.

Price does not change. No additional tiebreaker necessary.

[tusarj]

Can you explain why i'm on second place? How it count's your position at the end? 

[Chthugha]

first come, first serve.

[MisterCat]

I agree that the ties in the league system are a problem, and it should not be solved by 'first come, first served'.  The other proposals seem a bit convoluted and require a lot of changes.  I have an alternate suggestion that I hope the devs aren't too money-grabbing to implement.

We should have the server do a league fight between every set of players that are tied at the end of the league, to break all ties.   

Yes, the 1st/2nd place determination is where it counts for kobans and  rewards, but it's nearly as simple to do it for every set of ties.    The server runs the fights, and no one can complain that it wasn't done fairly. 

And since everyone knows when end of league is, you can prepare for the tie-breaking fights just as you might any other.  While P2W players who load up on boosters have an advantage, it is no more than they have at other time.   Or we can be really fair about it and run all the tie-break fights without any boosters at all.   But these are all details, implementing the tie-break fight is the important bit.   

 

 

[GeorgeMTO]

44 minutes ago, MisterCat said:

I agree that the ties in the league system are a problem, and it should not be solved by 'first come, first served'.  The other proposals seem a bit convoluted and require a lot of changes.  I have an alternate suggestion that I hope the devs aren't too money-grabbing to implement.

We should have the server do a league fight between every set of players that are tied at the end of the league, to break all ties.   

Yes, the 1st/2nd place determination is where it counts for kobans and  rewards, but it's nearly as simple to do it for every set of ties.    The server runs the fights, and no one can complain that it wasn't done fairly. 

And since everyone knows when end of league is, you can prepare for the tie-breaking fights just as you might any other.  While P2W players who load up on boosters have an advantage, it is no more than they have at other time.   Or we can be really fair about it and run all the tie-break fights without any boosters at all.   But these are all details, implementing the tie-break fight is the important bit.   

 

 

Okay but how exactly does this tie break fight work? Who gets the first attack, because that matters a lot?

And also if they have the maximum possible score that means they beat each other three times? Why do you expect the outcome to be anything other than they both beat each other. 

Your suggestion is certainly simpler, but that also makes it not work.

[Chthugha]

On 6/28/2019 at 7:43 PM, nbgv said:

I can see we have some communists in here. I have a hint for you - it DOESN'T work. In Poland we have these saying from when Socialism/Communism was in here (the same politicians and their families are still in the government but now they just call themselves Democrats or whatever they think people will like more and it is more obvious day by day) "Czy się stoi, czy się leży, pensja się należy." - which can be roughly translated as: "If you stand, if you lay, the money will be paid."

What you are proposing is exactly this. "We are all equal but we are in the party so we have somehow better and more of everything and we want you to believe us. Just remember, we are all equal therefore we will spread everything equally: better and more food for us - you will starve, better and more cloths for us - you will freeze to death, better and more homes for us paid by you - you will pay for everything few times over, OH, I mean we are all equal, just BELIEVE in our lies, OH, I mean in our slogans, just don't look at our hands and at what we are doing, you must BELIEVE - equality is out there (instead of Archive X: The truth is out there). Btw, if you don't believe us we have a nice pension for you: It is sunny in the summer and in the winter there is tons of snow and really cold but we can make you warm by working - it is called Gulag.

What you actually proposing is NOT tiebreaker solution, it is PUNISHMENT of those, who actually want to work more, smarter and better. We are rushing, because we want the 1st prize (you can even call me P2W - I DON'T CARE for I will have my 5th 1st place in D2 and I didn't bought 1 koban. I have done it by using my brain and you could do it too instead of whining.) You want to PUNISH those who want to be first and to do that: we are waking up earlier than the rest, we are investing more than the rest, we are taking risk to achieve it and it may not pay off, but we are trying and the rest is not.

Why don't you go to some race/Olympiad and tell them: hey, guys, I want you to take down those fast cameras at the end line and just give those few who were there in similar time the same prize and lets just call it tiebreaker solution. They would definitely listen to you and not just laugh in your face, I am pretty sure of that...

What the actual f are you rascalling about? Maybe lay off the vodka before you write such a reply. You are fearing losing out on your way too big a profit margin by constantly dropping back to D2.

First of all, 5 am in the morning, or for the Brits 4 am, is too late to stay awale and too early to wale up for for someone with an actual jon and life. Sure one could do that, but it is just bad for your health in general to destroy your own sleeping pattern.

Secondly, there is nothing SMART about the way you play. Every idiot out there can see that dropping back to a league you can win, spamming a button to be first as quick as possible, and then win way too many kobans is a better payout then struggling to compete in the league above. Some people do not even have to wake up for it, because of fricking timezone advantage. Others cannot do it because of fricking timezone disadvantage. Let us say that the league will start at that one hour of the week you simply cannot play the game. Every week you see the same shit happen; someone else wins your league. Is he then smarter than you for doing so? No he isn't. He simply has the means to do what you cannot do. In an olympic race everyone has the same conditions at the start. And even though techniques are better now, we still see equal finishes. I can guarantee you that those equal results are jot exactly equal. Ee can measure in milliseconds, but one was a coupe of microseconds earlier. That last number we measure is uncertain and there will always be an uncertainty in a measurement. We don't know so we do the logical thing; give both the same place.

Here we measure strength not speed. So strength should be the tiebreaker, not speed. Oh, these two olympic swimmers have the same time, let's decide the game with a wrestling match. Someone who is actually the strongest of the league, can force a win with the help of boosters.

The fact that you already say that you didn't buy 1 koban, already gives away that the rewards are unhealthily high for the game. It is making sure the top end players do not even have to buy anytjing, because they are given way too much by the game already. Getting 10k+ kobans for less than a minute of spamclicking is just stupidly overprized. There is no effort there at all. Simply, I am the strongest player and fastest clicker in the league. You can talk about communism, but this is simply a capitalist game. Kinkoid needs to make money, this league setup is losing them more than it is gaining them. Many games give too little and ask too much. This game in general gives a good amount but it seriously went wrong in the leagues.

And yes, there will be groups that will be mad if they cut the koban prizes down. There goes their free koban subscription. But to keep it realistic, those prizes have to go down. And don't worry. I already called that when it was still in testing phase.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Chthugha

[Observer_X]

4 hours ago, nbgv said:

I am waking up to do it at 5am, ultimately it is your choice to do so.

It is not. Maybe you should remember that out of the game people have lifes to bring on. Not all people can allow themselves to get up at 5:00am to be online at the game refresh. I can do it now thanks to the fact that I don't have a regular work, but once that situation changes you will surely see me up at 5:00 only on weekends and holidays. People with the timezone disadvantage can't simply allow themselves to make that choice: if they have a regular work, other regular morning engagements and/or a family to follow the choice is already made for them, they like it or not. Point.

[Chthugha]

@nbgv sooo, it is not an overprized reward because otherwise it is not worth rushing? That is exactly why it is too much. And why it takes away every element of competition leagues supposedly stand for.

It starts off with not giving everyone the same starting conditions. I am not talking about strength. Usain Bolt was simply faster, but he had the same starting conditions as every other competitor. Here we do not have that. Someone from Eastern Asia or Northern America is already awake. Someone from Europe has to wake up for it. There can be multiple things stopping a player from doing so, e.g. actually having a life, alarm not going off, sleeping through your alarm. That is not an equal starting point. Even if you say it is a choice, you have to do something to have a chance whereas other parta of the world simply have to do what they already do.

And then it rewards one player with an excessive amount of kobans. If you really think that clicking a bunch of buttons is worth two epic pachinko 10x spins, then there is something wrong with you. All you have shown me is that you rather not lose out on those excessive rewards every other week. Good for you that you can do this, bad for the game.

-------

And no it wouldn't be the same as €400,-... the euro is simply worth more than the złoty. Poland might at some point end up in the euro and you are not going to earn and pay 4x what you are doing now. It is your choice not to pay for kobans, because you think they are too expensive (which I can agree with, they are expensive), but that means you rely on your in game koban earnings. And a change to how the league works would ruin the easy koban grab routine you are doing.