The attraction/shard system.

[trunks2585]

Yes, another thread about the new attraction system, because most of them are in general which is considered the dumping ground for complaints to not be taken seriously.  So now we can get a thread in feedback that hopefully will get looked at, if there's not already discussions on the discord servers (English and French) that the devs are responding to.

Let's put something into perspective here.  I've recently gone 40 fights with no shard drops on the test server trying to get val abrail.  Almost a full days worth of fights and no shards.  And there are no other girls to even compete with, it's just the one.

THAT alone right there is the key biggest issue with this new system.  Complaints about the wide swigs of RNG will not go away, if anything they will get worse, because it's not complaining about getting a girl, it's not complaining that players can't even get a part of a girl.

The other common complaint is if players are getting 'lucky' and getting lots of shard drops, that also means they are missing out on income.

Theses two problems NEED to be addressed for the longevity of your game.  Shards should be able to drop alongside money.  And I can accept some swings of RNG but there needs to be a maximum amount of fights with no shards implemented if you honestly want to fix having people that are 'very unlucky'  I get if common girls have large RNG swings on dropping, they aren't going anywhere, but with event girls, it doesn't matter if it's a revival event where they can drop 12 in one fight if you get nothing for a full day.

[Lhans]

48 minutes ago, trunks2585 said:

Let's put something into perspective here.  I've recently gone 40 fights with no shard drops on the test server trying to get val abrail.  Almost a full days worth of fights and no shards.  And there are no other girls to even compete with, it's just the one.

Putting something into perspective, one day's fight is not a big enough sample to be complaining about no shards. In the old system, players had gone months without a hit. I myself still don't have val red battler despite using all the free points on her since day 1. I already gotten val Abrael however in about 6 refills, so equivalent to 3 days. More money is always good. Need a lot of em for too many things.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Lhans

[trunks2585]

"In the old system".  The old system was hit or miss and you only needed one hit.  That's not the case now.  My point is there still is no true 'safety net' in play.  It is still entirely possible for players to have huge swings of no shards.  And this is just on a revival event where the girls can drop up to 12 in one fight.  Now imagine what a joke it will be to try for Epic and Legendary days.  At most getting 3 shards off one fight, on top of being able to go 40 fights or more without a single shard drop.

In short there's still going to be terrible RNG which is compounded by the problem that you have to get lucky with drops multiple times.  There has to be a safety net somewhere in play to truly reduce bad RNG like the devs say they want to do.

[John 1039]

Yes, still no conclusive safety net. It would appear the RNG governed attraction system is the closest the devs are going to go towards such a safety net.

They probably believe that guaranteeing a drop after a certain number of fights is going to hurt them financially, partially because sooner or later that certain number is eventually going to get discovered.

[jelom]

@trunks2585 I disagree with you. Now there is a safety net, because the variance in the total number of fights to get a girl will be reduced a lot. Yes, you can have a bad streak obtaining a shard, of 50 battles or even 100 (although the last one would be extremely rare), but when compensating with the rest of fights to obtain a girl, the probability of having more than 500 total fights in a normal event without obtaining 100 shards is near to zero.

Edited February 15, 2019 by jelom

[trunks2585]

I respectfully disagree.  Many players that often would be done with events in one or two days will also be disagreeing on this.  If anything, the average number of fights needed to get a girl has gone up.  We have literally just traded one form of RNG for another.  Also as a fun note, (and yes I know, one player, tiny sample size from one event).  In the 12 day event, I got both girls on the 'old' system faster than I did on the new one.  Even Val Shao that was holding out on me, dropped faster after like 4 days, where the test server at that time was undergoing changes and they just handed me her because I had a few of her shards but she would have probably taken 5-6 days as val mala did on the test server, where she was 2 days on the old system in the normal server.

I expect others will be voicing similar concerns later because I made this thread super late for normal posting hours, but there's what, like 3 threads filled with a lot of complaints already in the general section?  That alone should be enough to show this new system needs work.

[John 1039]

38 minutes ago, jelom said:

... the probability of having more than 500 total fights in a normal event without obtaining 100 shards is near to zero.

This is something we all hope for, however, it doesn't appear to be actual reality. It took one player 623 fights to get Val Red Battler.

I'm among those whose optimism is decreasing for the new system (which will quickly change if I start getting a lot of shards quickly), but on the other hand I do accept that probably, while the average number of fights for a drop has gone up the probability of those horrific over-10,000-kobans-no-drop scenarios has also decreased by a lot, hopefully completely.

All we can hope for is that the newer RNG system be easier on the players than the old one.

[Chthugha]

Just now, John 1039 said:

This is something we all hope for, however, it doesn't appear to be actual reality. It took one player 623 fights to get Val Red Battler.

I'm among those whose optimism is decreasing for the new system (which will quickly change if I start getting a lot of shards quickly), but on the other hand I do accept that probably, while the average number of fights for a drop has gone up the probability of those horrific over-10,000-kobans-no-drop scenarios has also decreased by a lot, hopefully completely.

All we can hope for is that the newer RNG system be easier on the players than the old one.

wow, it took one player 623 fights... that's a good representation of the system, I guess 🤔
 

[GeorgeMTO]

1 hour ago, jelom said:

Now there is a safety net, because the variance in the total number of fights to get a girl will be reduced a lot. Yes, you can have a bad streak obtaining a shard, of 50 battles or even 100 (although the last one would be extremely rare), but when compensating with the rest of fights to obtain a girl, the probability of having more than 500 total fights in a normal event without obtaining 100 shards is near to zero.

I don't consider improved RNG a safety net, and I find the shard system to be quite positive. A safety net would involve guarantees, so the exact worst case scenario would be known. I don't expect one to be added anytime soon though, as the increased RNG for shards is a reasonable response for it.

[jelom]

58 minutes ago, John 1039 said:

It took one player 623 fights to get Val Red Battler.

when I say that probablity is near to zero I mean less than 1/100000. I have not the real shards drop rate to calculate more exactly, of course always can be an extremely unlucky player, but 623 it is not so big number, everyone has gone at least once over a long event (500 battles) without a girl drop, so it is not that different.

[Cantrix]

My problems with the new system are- way too high rng(you can go with more than 40fights without getting even a single shard), way too low rewards(when you get only 3 shards and you are far from obtaining 100, it feels like punishment because you don't get the money but a measly 1-3shards). Moreover as it is now, it still doesn't provide the bad luck protection we are sorely lacking. So if your luck is bad, you still can spend kobans equalt to 20 epic pachinko spins and more without even getting near to obtaining the girl. The devs mentioned that the original  purely rng based system was behind the success of the game, well nobody likes rng when it hurts them. Why not have the rng mecahincs of incidental drops, but a hidden cap which would prevent a case in which you have spend kobans equal to 200$ without getting a girl. Yes maybe you got 30-50-80shards, but this will feel more like salt in the wound rather than a progress you have made. It is an improvement, but not what we asked for- a safety net guaranteeing that massive amounts of kobans won't go down the drain.

[windia]

6 hours ago, Chthugha said:

wow, it took one player 623 fights... that's a good representation of the system, I guess 🤔

I always wonder how people try to do statistical calculations when they have so few data to start with. (not talking about the difference to stochastics)

Thus I'm also impressed how detailed people collect combat data to generate a data base. And yet it keeps a small one, in best case first three world bosses might provide enough data over time - given an unchanged system. Oh, wait, it was changed two times last 12 months.

And yes, who asks for a safety net to guarantee things - don't forget that this would turn into a full Pay2Win - not the fair RNG for F2P players you have now.

Now it is "pay for more tries" and "pay for EP girls to get now". And of course, "pay for comfort". I like how chances are distributed. They give me the imagination of being treated fair.

 

@pozi: any "hidden cap" would be revealed by the heavy players within days. So no hidden and despite hidden turning into pay2win.

Edited February 15, 2019 by windia

[pozi]

2 hours ago, Cantrix said:

My problems with the new system are- way too high rng(you can go with more than 40fights without getting even a single shard), way too low rewards(when you get only 3 shards and you are far from obtaining 100, it feels like punishment because you don't get the money but a measly 1-3shards). Moreover as it is now, it still doesn't provide the bad luck protection we are sorely lacking. So if your luck is bad, you still can spend kobans equalt to 20 epic pachinko spins and more without even getting near to obtaining the girl. The devs mentioned that the original  purely rng based system was behind the success of the game, well nobody likes rng when it hurts them. Why not have the rng mecahincs of incidental drops, but a hidden cap which would prevent a case in which you have spend kobans equal to 200$ without getting a girl. Yes maybe you got 30-50-80shards, but this will feel more like salt in the wound rather than a progress you have made. It is an improvement, but not what we asked for- a safety net guaranteeing that massive amounts of kobans won't go down the drain.

I didn't say that, please edit your post

[pozi]

1 hour ago, windia said:

I always wonder how people try to do statistical calculations when they have so few data to start with. (not talking about the difference to stochastics)

Thus I'm also impressed how detailed people collect combat data to generate a data base. And yet it keeps a small one, in best case first three world bosses might provide enough data over time - given an unchanged system. Oh, wait, it was changed two times last 12 months.

And yes, who asks for a safety net to guarantee things - don't forget that this would turn into a full Pay2Win - not the fair RNG for F2P players you have now.

Now it is "pay for more tries" and "pay for EP girls to get now". And of course, "pay for comfort". I like how chances are distributed. They give me the imagination of being treated fair.

 

@pozi: any "hidden cap" would be revealed by the heavy players within days. So no hidden and despite hidden turning into pay2win.

I fully agre with you. After all, the hook of this kind of games lies indeed in the rng. @Cantrix said nobody likes rng when it hurts them but in the end we keep 'gambling' because we love when it pleases us so yes, Dev's are right when they say rng is behind HH success. If a safety net is implemented (like 'drop at least a shard per 10 fights' or something like that) it will kill the thrill, because you'll know you just need to fight a certain number of fights to get the girls so big spenders will get every single girl available, and honestly that's no fun (and no business in the long term because people tends to get bored when achievements are easily reachable).

Now a suggestion. What if shards start to drop also in arena and league fights? I've always thought a system in which that PvP battles give you the option of getting an opponent's girl would be nice, and the shards system gives a nice opportunity to implement something like that. You won't be 'stealing' the girl from your opponent, he'll keep her in his harem, but eventually you'll have her too, after her affection reaches 100 in your account.  Of course this have some bad implications (big spenders may feel less 'special' if freeriders start to get too many 'exclusive' girls) but it would be a great addition to the game. Also you can limit this to 'orgy team' girls (this would be specially useful to get those legendary girls I miss in my team)

Edited February 15, 2019 by pozi

[windia]

36 minutes ago, pozi said:

[...]

Now a suggestion. What if shards start to drop also in arena and league fights? I've always thought a system in which that PvP battles give you the option of getting an opponent's girl would be nice, and the shards system gives a nice opportunity to implement something like that. You won't be 'stealing' the girl from your opponent, he'll keep her in his harem, but eventually you'll have her too, after her affection reaches 100 in your account.  Of course this have some bad implications (big spenders may feel less 'special' if freeriders start to get too many 'exclusive' girls) but it would be a great addition to the game. Also you can limit this to 'orgy team' girls (this would be specially useful to get those legendary girls I miss in my team)

Due to the fact that patreon girls might never be strong enough o be considered an alpha or beta girl - maybe not even gamma - that sounds like an option.

Problematic are the legendary event girls which would are better than epics - maybe not 5 star epic - which are rare on the other hand.

So in general sounds nice and in detail it needs a very good balancing to not "cheat the kobans" - you can have many pvps, even 20 boss costs almost as much as 24 pvp refills.

[pozi]

Yeah, it needs some work, but considering you can't choose your opponents it would be like a double rng spin: first you need to get an opponent with a legendary girl you don't have and defeat him, and then cross your fingers again to get a shard from her. So even with tons of refreshings getting a girl just from PvP battles would be quite difficult - but they'll eventually drop in the long term or at least we would be closer to get them when their new revival comes

Edited February 15, 2019 by pozi

[GeorgeMTO]

A 'fairer' system there would be to add certain girl(s) to a pool, and add a chance that one of the daily pvp boxes could give you attraction towards that girl. Maintains RNG, while not making it limited by who you can vs.

[John 1039]

This is in response to some previous comments here which, if I understood correctly, appear to be directed towards my comment.

I never once said a single player's 623 fights is a good representation of the system, and neither did I try to do any statistical calculations nor showed such. Someone kindly tell me which statistical conclusion(s) have I allegedly drawn?

The only thing I did was mention a fact, a player's previous experience, which supports the idea that many players' hopes with the new system might unfortunately be too optimistic. For the overly presumptuous crowd, let me spell it out that this isn't a statement of fact but only what appears to be, at the moment - that's why I specifically used the word "appear" in my previous comment.

If 1-12 shards event can need 623 fights, then it is logical to reason that 1-6 shards event' fights can reach 1200 and 1-3 shards event's fights, perhaps, 2400?

Spelling it out again, I don't believe this likely as I've already stated: "while the average number of fights for a drop has gone up the probability of those horrific over-10,000-kobans-no-drop scenarios has also decreased by a lot, hopefully completely."

Man, it looks like one cannot even quote a simple fact on this forum without it getting overblown and ridiculed. Here's to hoping that I severely misunderstood everything.

@jelom, I'm saying pretty much the same as you, but with comparatively much less optimism. Almost-never 500+ fights scenario would probably impact revenues, hopefully I'm mistaken.

[trunks2585]

@windia @pozi In regards to a limit or a mercy system, I have to disagree.  There would be no harm in including such a system and again, like a broken record, I'm referencing Kingdom Hearts Union Cross, Valkerie crusade, granblue fantasy, and many other gatcha games that have a mercy system in effect.  Maybe the cap isn't hidden because as you said, players would find a limit very quickly, it doesn't have to be hidden.  The devs already get accused of being shady and greedy, make them be honest about something like a mercy drop system and they gain more player trust.  And as for the gambling thrill?  The thrill is when you beat the limit.  If the cap is 20 fights and you get shards at 2, you're gonna feel really lucky.  That thrill is still there.

Honestly since the first legendary days people were asking for a safety net of some kind, so I don't get why now all of a sudden such an implementation would be a bad idea.

[YummyTiger]

Was the purpose of the new system to guarantee you get progress every day? Was it to ensure you get every girl from every event? I don't think it was, and I don't think that this game will ever be designed in that fashion. I'm a completionist as well, and it can gnaw at me a bit when I don't get a girl. For example, I dropped at least 900 (nutaku) kobans on refills for the last legendary (Taria) and didn't get her. I posted here about it, and commented that the worst part was that all those kobans and refills literally did nothing. In this system, I'm 100% confident that I would have earned shards towards Taria and would at least be on my way towards getting her the next time she came around. It's not a perfect safety net, no, but I see it as an improvement. The likelihood that you get the girl in a few battles goes down, but the likelihood that you go hundreds of battles with nothing goes down as well.

In my limited testing of around 500 battles (364 of them for event girls) is that it took me about 150 battles to get both event girls and both times I had dry spells around 40 battles. I average about 0.6 to 0.7 shards per battle for event girls and about 0.1 shards for troll girls. I'll be curious what people find when more and more information gets posted and we get a better idea of the true drop rate.

EDIT to add your last reply I didn't see: I also think a further safety net is not necessarily a bad thing. I just think this system is a better safety net than the last, but things could still be better. I wrote that more to argue against the old system than to say this is perfect.

Edited February 15, 2019 by YummyTiger

[trunks2585]

I more or less agree with @YummyTiger  Namely on the fact (as many have said) that we need more data.  Next Legendary days is going to be the REAL test of this system, because you know we'll have players spending till they get the girl this round, not content to get maybe half of her.  I'm also curious for those that just do free fights, how many shards total they'll have at the end of four days.

[windia]

any kind of safety net that comes with determism and without RNG is a pay to win. imo the devs don't want that - and they saw the bad side of to much RNG.

Here we have pay to buy more tries - like a lottery.

And in case you didn't get the 100 shard drop, you can collect lesser shard drops that force the "over 100 shard drop" - some kind of  "raffle ticket booth" (or however it is called) where you buy tickets from 0 to many points and you decide (or your purse) when to stop and what's the price you get.

So i think the new system is quite good - on an RNG you never can open your numbers. People would mess up statistics with stochastics.

[jelom]

1 hour ago, John 1039 said:

The only thing I did was mention a fact, a player's previous experience, which supports the idea that many players' hopes with the new system might unfortunately be too optimistic.

Yes, I also think that is one of the causes of many people complaining. Expectations were too high with the new system, and some people understood something different than what the devs tried to say, even some people though that it would be shard drops in EVERY battle (that means you get all of the girls in a maximum of 100 battles). The mechanics is still the same, just the RNG has been pieced into shards to reduce variance.

57 minutes ago, trunks2585 said:

Next Legendary days is going to be the REAL test of this system, because you know we'll have players spending till they get the girl this round, not content to get maybe half of her.  I'm also curious for those that just do free fights, how many shards total they'll have at the end of four days.

In respect to legendary days, I predict people using only free fights will be utterly dissapointed save the occasional lucky player who gets 100 shards in a battle. With 200 free battles and if the drop % is like this event, they shoud end with 40 +/- 15 shards. I am mentalized to get the legendary girl in about 600-800 battles (5k-7k kobans discounting free battles), and I will not be angry to have to use my saved kobans, in the contrary, I will be happy because now I am sure to get her even if at the end I need 1000 battles. I also would want to see the reports of the people who will use most battles to get her, and if someone reach the 14k kobans (+1500 battles including free) without a girl as in previous legendary events I would be really surprised.

[Cantrix]

2 hours ago, windia said:

any kind of safety net that comes with determism and without RNG is a pay to win. imo the devs don't want that - and they saw the bad side of to much RNG.

Here we have pay to buy more tries - like a lottery.

And in case you didn't get the 100 shard drop, you can collect lesser shard drops that force the "over 100 shard drop" - some kind of  "raffle ticket booth" (or however it is called) where you buy tickets from 0 to many points and you decide (or your purse) when to stop and what's the price you get.

So i think the new system is quite good - on an RNG you never can open your numbers. People would mess up statistics with stochastics.

How is a safety net considered pay to win, when all players are getting free kobans. On the other hand you can't say you would like to spend 3 months saving up kobans and see them go down the drain for nothing during the next legendary days.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Cantrix

[windia]

20 minutes ago, Cantrix said:

How is a safety net considered pay to win, when all players are getting free kobans. On the other hand you can't say you would like to spend 3 months saving up kobans and see them go down the drain for nothing during the next legendary days.

I'm saying a deterministic safety net without any RNG (=cap limit) is pay2win - what we have now is a safety net with RNG.

And thus the saved kobans don't go down the drain.