[ 01-Jun-20 ] Corrupted Girls - Discussion

[Observer_X]

This event is going the worst since I started playing the game. I needed four and a half day to have Kelina drop, and next I am still at 3/100 on Hedonia. It was a long time since I experienced an unlucky streak of over 50 tries without a single shard drop. Definitely not positive about the final outcome: I'm not sure I will be able to obtain Hedonia, go figure about Shade...

The only positive side is about the outside event achievements. Before the event start, thanks to the fact that I practically did only two tasks in the last path of attraction, i obtained Balista from Jackson and Gina and Lulu from Ninja Spy. While pounding Dark Lord for Kelina, Akhates also dropped (and I unlocked Esperance, reaching 12/100 on her too). Moreover, thanks to a borrowed laptop, yesterday i was able to play HentaiClicker long enough to obtain Miss I-am-an-asshole-because-I-drop-only-for-players-with-big-computers Mizuki.

I hope that shard drop rate increases or those will be the last girls in my harem for a long time.

[Zorba the Geek]

Having got both Hedonia and Shade, I can now reflect on their affection scenes and poses.  I won't go as far as doing a spoiler, but I may tantalise a little.

Their affection scenes represent a sequence of events that both girls share in - as is often the case with two new classic event girls.  To make sense of their affection scenes it pays to obtain Shade first then Hedonia.  Regarding Shade's appearance in Hedonia's final pose, the artists may have made a mistake of not consulting the script.  The clue lies in Shade's hair clips.  I'll leave members to guess what I mean.

Interesting, too, is Shade's full name.  Run together, it is German that means karma that, in the observer, is a satisfying comeuppance for the perpetrator for a perceived wrongdoing.  It also fits with Shade's character.  This is yet another example of how HH writers and artists have been able to include some quite subtle humour into the game.

[jip]

you know the shard drops will not increase, maybe you get your luck the days left. I got shade yesterday so don't think you are the only one. I don't get the problem with the computer, how bad is it if it even can't work with hc? If you try your best then you can get her in one day, I plat hc and hh on a very old dell laptop.😐

[Zorba the Geek]

10 minutes ago, jip said:

you know the shard drops will not increase, maybe you get your luck the days left. I got shade yesterday so don't think you are the only one. I don't get the problem with the computer, how bad is it if it even can't work with hc? If you try your best then you can get her in one day, I plat hc and hh on a very old dell laptop.😐

As someone who has multiple accounts, I'm in a position to comment on the RNG.  It is a two-tier randomisation.  By this I mean that not only is there variation from performance to performance as we might expect within an event, but also variation among accounts in how successful are the shard drops over an event.  I can recall my last classic event when my Adrian'smole account (usually successful in girl recruitment) bummed out and I needed to spend kobans to get only one girl, but in this account (Zorba) I got all three easily.  The previous event to that, my Zobra account yielded only one.  The other accounts were intermediate to this in the current and the previous two accounts.

So the moral of my story is that the RNA is patchy on two levels and, for members with only one account, this can seem like a conspiracy against them.  Previous endless complaints about the drop rate have largely fallen away as (I suppose) members have begun to understand more how the RNG works.  It is anything but homogeneous in how it delivers.

[_shal_]

21 minutes ago, Zorba the Geek said:

As someone who has multiple accounts, I'm in a position to comment on the RNG.  It is a two-tier randomisation.  By this I mean that not only is there variation from performance to performance as we might expect within an event, but also variation among accounts in how successful are the shard drops over an event.

Your two "tiers" are the same thing, the latter is merely the sum total of many instances of the former.

Edited June 7, 2020 by _shal_

[Darsca]

16 minutes ago, Zorba the Geek said:

As someone who has multiple accounts, I'm in a position to comment on the RNG.  It is a two-tier randomisation.  By this I mean that not only is there variation from performance to performance as we might expect within an event, but also variation among accounts in how successful are the shard drops over an event.  I can recall my last classic event when my Adrian'smole account (usually successful in girl recruitment) bummed out and I needed to spend kobans to get only one girl, but in this account (Zorba) I got all three easily.  The previous event to that, my Zobra account yielded only one.  The other accounts were intermediate to this in the current and the previous two accounts.

So the moral of my story is that the RNA is patchy on two levels and, for members with only one account, this can seem like a conspiracy against them.  Previous endless complaints about the drop rate have largely fallen away as (I suppose) members have begun to understand more how the RNG works.  It is anything but homogeneous in how it delivers.

.. I'm sorry, what? Two-tier randomisation? This sounds like you're implying that accounts get 'fixed' for low and high RNG on each event on an individual basis. There's just nothing to support this; normal RNG is a perfectly adequate explanation for this variation, no tinfoil hat required.

[Chthugha]

1 hour ago, Zorba the Geek said:

Interesting, too, is Shade's full name.  Run together, it is German that means karma that, in the observer, is a satisfying comeuppance for the perpetrator for a perceived wrongdoing.  It also fits with Shade's character.  This is yet another example of how HH writers and artists have been able to include some quite subtle humour into the game.

Sorry, but karma is not a part at all in Schadenfreude. It's simply finding pleasure at the expense of someone else's misfortune. Whether or not the someone else deserves the mocking is irrelevant. In this case it's a mirror for her way to get sexual pleasure; at the expense of someone else's misfortune.

[Zorba the Geek]

3 minutes ago, Darsca said:

.. I'm sorry, what? Two-tier randomisation? This sounds like you're implying that accounts get 'fixed' for low and high RNG on each event on an individual basis. There's just nothing to support this; normal RNG is a perfectly adequate explanation for this variation, no tinfoil hat required. 

Tin foil hat?  You mean how to explain how Donald Trump became president of the United States and managed to throw the whole country into utter turmoil and chaos?  I never said the accounts get fixed, but it is a curious observation isn't it.  One would expect variation from performance to performance, but not so extreme from account to account during an event.  I've heard people complaining about getting nothing during an event, despite forking out bucket-loads of kobans, and others cleaning up (not counting EP successes or those x100 shard drops, which are mean to be rare).

[Zorba the Geek]

7 minutes ago, Chthugha said:

Sorry, but karma is not a part at all in Schadenfreude. It's simply finding pleasure at the expense of someone else's misfortune. Whether or not the someone else deserves the mocking is irrelevant. In this case it's a mirror for her way to get sexual pleasure; at the expense of someone else's misfortune.

I stand corrected.  Thank you.  Over here, Schadenfreude is usually taken to mean some deserved misfortune, long wished upon a wrong-doer.  But then translations and language conventions from country to country often create strange and biased outcomes.  The word 'sinister' comes to mind.  This did not originally mean dire or omenous, but was simply Latin for 'left-handed', corrupted in English as a means to discriminate against the 10% of the population who are left-handed.  Conversely, 'dextrous' is taken to refer to someone who is manually skilled, nimble and adept, but, in Latin, it means 'right-handed' (dexter') which tells us all about how prejudice and discrimination can become fixed in a society's culture and language.

Back to Shade, yes, it's quite clever how HH have created her full name isn't it.  Your thoughts accord with mine on this one.

[_shal_]

17 minutes ago, Zorba the Geek said:

One would expect variation from performance to performance, but not so extreme from account to account during an event.

Could you show your mathematical workings that allowed you to arrive at this conclusion?

[Zorba the Geek]

3 minutes ago, _shal_ said:

Could you show your mathematical workings that allowed you to arrive at this conclusion?

No!  I know you delight in statistics, but I prefer to remain blissfully unaware and left with that sense of wonder small children delight in.

[_shal_]

I haven't met too many small children with firmly held opinions about the results of stochastic processes, but there we are, I guess.

[Darsca]

56 minutes ago, Zorba the Geek said:

Tin foil hat?  You mean how to explain how Donald Trump became president of the United States and managed to throw the whole country into utter turmoil and chaos?  I never said the accounts get fixed, but it is a curious observation isn't it.  One would expect variation from performance to performance, but not so extreme from account to account during an event.  I've heard people complaining about getting nothing during an event, despite forking out bucket-loads of kobans, and others cleaning up (not counting EP successes or those x100 shard drops, which are mean to be rare).

Firstly... maybe don't use non-relevant political analogies while quoting a moderator. That's just not going to end well.

If I take what you say at face value and believe that there really are people not getting a single girl in a 12 day Classic, yes that seems incredibly unlikely with 600 free Combativity. Especially since there's a big thread crunching down average numbers  at 200 fights per girl in a 12 day event. Coincidentally, that results in a perfect average getting all three girls just barely in the 12 day time frame, which fits nicely. Possibly intentional, although I'm hesitant to credit Kinkoid with putting that much thought into the drop rate design. So I'd expect there to also be statistical outliers of getting all the girls in say.. 2 or 3 days if there are those with no girls after 12? (without 100 shard drops, obviously). And yet I don't see them.

For my own personal experience, I've rarely deviated much outside the above average in 12-days, sometimes needing a handful of refills to finish up and sometimes finishing a day or two early, but no wild variation on that. This event currently running my main on Nutaku has been slowly dropping behind the curve day by day until today, where it suddenly picked up nearly all the slack at once (40 shards in 30 battles! 😋). So.. yeah. From the consistent number crunchers on the forum and my own personal experience, I can't say there's much to support RNG being applied to accounts per event. I rather dislike unreliable anecdotal evidence.

(Side note: I've been so slow responding that apparently the conversation has gone on without me 😖 )

[Zorba the Geek]

6 minutes ago, _shal_ said:

I haven't met too many small children with firmly held opinions about the results of stochastic processes, but there we are, I guess.

This is hornet's nest stuff that I've blundered into.  I'll quit while I'm ahead.  Haha!

[Chthugha]

6 minutes ago, Zorba the Geek said:

I stand corrected.  Thank you.  Over here, Schadenfreude is usually taken to mean some deserved misfortune, long wished upon a wrong-doer.  But then translations and language conventions from country to country often create strange and biased outcomes.  The word 'sinister' comes to mind.  This did not originally mean dire or omenous, but was simply Latin for 'left-handed', corrupted in English as a means to discriminate against the 10% of the population who are left-handed.  Conversely, 'dextrous' is taken to refer to someone who is manually skilled, nimble and adept, but, in Latin, it means 'right-handed' (dexter') which tells us all about how prejudice and discrimination can become fixed in a society's culture and language.

Oh I know. I always tell my students that I am left handed and that the Latin word for that is sinister. Anyway, this does actually come forth from the believe that the Romans held that left-handed people couldn't be trusted. So it isn't exactly a coincidence the Latin word has two meanings, because they were seen as two things that go hand in hand. It did have the two meanings already before we took the word ad only being something negative. And then it just trickled down into the other indo-european languages. Just look at the two meanings of the word right in English for example.

[Observer_X]

1 hour ago, jip said:

I don't get the problem with the computer, how bad is it if it even can't work with hc? If you try your best then you can get her in one day, I plat hc and hh on a very old dell laptop

It depends on how you intend "very old". In my current and specific case, this means a PC (fixed, not portable) that was new 18 years ago (and is still kicking, as most of other websites loads perfectly, although some of the heaviest ones are obviously a little slow)

[Zorba the Geek]

3 hours ago, Chthugha said:

Oh I know. I always tell my students that I am left handed and that the Latin word for that is sinister. Anyway, this does actually come forth from the believe that the Romans held that left-handed people couldn't be trusted. So it isn't exactly a coincidence the Latin word has two meanings, because they were seen as two things that go hand in hand. It did have the two meanings already before we took the word ad only being something negative. And then it just trickled down into the other indo-european languages. Just look at the two meanings of the word right in English for example.

Yes, we are both considerably off-topic, I know, but you have a point.  It seems to be a quirk expressed by English.  Latin-based languages still express left-handedness as their actual meanings.  Take Italian for example: 'sinistro' for left or left-handed and destro for right or right-handedness - adjectives that apply to nouns that are deemed male in Latin convention.  An Italian speaker might care to correct me if I'm wrong.

I often wonder how these etymological expressions of prejudice and name-calling came about.  Maybe they're tied up with fear of differences and fear of minorities that was most pronounced during the middle-ages when they became a part of the way Christianity was able to use them to label people the clergy of the time considered unworthy or a threat.  Minorities are always an easy target and persecuting them helps us hide uncomfortable truths about ourselves.

[Zorba the Geek]

4 hours ago, Darsca said:

Firstly... maybe don't use non-relevant political analogies while quoting a moderator. That's just not going to end well.

If I take what you say at face value and believe that there really are people not getting a single girl in a 12 day Classic, yes that seems incredibly unlikely with 600 free Combativity. Especially since there's a big thread crunching down average numbers  at 200 fights per girl in a 12 day event. Coincidentally, that results in a perfect average getting all three girls just barely in the 12 day time frame, which fits nicely. Possibly intentional, although I'm hesitant to credit Kinkoid with putting that much thought into the drop rate design. So I'd expect there to also be statistical outliers of getting all the girls in say.. 2 or 3 days if there are those with no girls after 12? (without 100 shard drops, obviously). And yet I don't see them.

For my own personal experience, I've rarely deviated much outside the above average in 12-days, sometimes needing a handful of refills to finish up and sometimes finishing a day or two early, but no wild variation on that. This event currently running my main on Nutaku has been slowly dropping behind the curve day by day until today, where it suddenly picked up all the slack at once (50 shards in 30 battles! 😋). So.. yeah. From the consistent number crunchers on the forum and my own personal experience, I can't say there's much to support RNG being applied to accounts per event. I rather dislike unreliable anecdotal evidence.

(Side note: I've been so slow responding that apparently the conversation has gone on without me 😖 )

Oops!  You're a moderator...  I missed that.  I made the mistake of expressing my political views when I did know this was against the rules.  Sorry.  I seem to rile moderators up no end!  Anyway, I'm one who has had considerable experience of shard drop extremes from account to account over the last year (as a starter) - and over a full 12 days.  I'm not saying there's been a glitch in the RNG, but I've found it peculiar.  It's almost like tossing a coin a hundred times and getting a 90% rate for heads.  Obviously this is not impossible, but it is deemed unlikely statistically, but nor has a 50% rate for heads all that likely either.

What I have found for me is that the drops balance out over all accounts from event to event - such as the one that was a roaring success one event might be a disaster the next event, and vice versa.  I'm like a dog with a bone on this topic, but the peculiarities of randomness is a wonder to me.  I found the same thing with EP since the orbs were introduced.  Two accounts had fantastic returns and these rest were either terrible or mediocre.  This has balanced out somewhat since, but it remains peculiar to me.

I think Kinkoid, et al. have done well in calculating the RNG drop rate and this has been reflected in the far fewer complaints about it in this forum of late.

[blaa]

5 hours ago, Observer_X said:

It depends on how you intend "very old". In my current and specific case, this means a PC (fixed, not portable) that was new 18 years ago (and is still kicking, as most of other websites loads perfectly, although some of the heaviest ones are obviously a little slow)

do you have the same rules for real life money as you have for kobans: No spending on a new PC before the development has ended?

[Zorba the Geek]

10 minutes ago, blaa said:

do you have the same rules for real life money as you have for kobans: No spending on a new PC before the development has ended?

I understand that Hentai Clicker is beta, so, yes, it's still in development.  I have the same trouble with my PC and it's about the same age as yours, but it is definitely not kicking now.  I think the HDD controller has failed after an earthquake.  I'll know for sure when I swap the hard drive into another computer to test it abd see if it boots.

Re, Hentai Clicker, like a lot of other games I've tried on Nutaku, this seems to rely on WebGL to function and my system lacked enough memory for WebGL to work.  I don't think this will change when the development phase has ended.

[DvDivXXX]

2 hours ago, Zorba the Geek said:

considerably off-topic

This about sums up the last page, most of which is you rambling about things you either admittedly or unknowingly don't understand but still have a strong and oddly specific opinion about. This is not your best trait my friend. You mentioned something about quitting while you're ahead a few posts ago. Well, you've been behind for a while, now. Maybe time to take a break? ^^

I wish the forum had a direct message system, but spoiler tags will have to do here (hopefully):

Darsca called you out on your conspiracy theories about how RNG and probabilities might work (in this game), with the classic "tinfoil hat" shortcut. That first post was no different in the core message it conveyed than Shal's multiple attempts to remind you that you don't get the basics of how probabilities work, or how they can be properly estimated or verified (something you yourself know that you don't know). He didn't have his mod hat on at that point. Anyone else with a basic understanding of variance, sample size, and other things you typically ignore and/or don't care about when it comes to luck, randomness, odds, drop rates etc. could have told you you were making no sense at all. And why would you? You have no knowledge of these things, by your own admission, and you prefer to keep a childish sense of wonder anyway. ^^

The problem with your response to that wasn't that you "made the mistake of sharing your political views", it was that the political part of your answer was completely unrelated to his point, or the topic, came seemingly out of nowhere (to most people reading you), and yes, it was a bit of a strong political view (even though it's nothing really controversial in most literate circles), so Darsca kind of had to put his mod hat on for a second just to prevent you from going further in that direction which would have then kind of forced him to moderate you. That was just him doing his job, and being nice about it. Of course, being you, you didn't see this, but instead interpreted it as another sign that mods never give you a break. It's a bit sad.

Now, about your so-called "considerable experience" of looking at six accounts' statistically irrelevant samples roughly combined in your memory (because we both know you don't take notes for this) over statistically irrelevant periods of 12 days, and drawing conclusions from there as if it meant or even could mean anything statistically relevant... Anyone with an active club chat has at least a 5 times bigger sample to look at (I know I do, almost everyone in my club constantly updates me on how many shard they happened to have grabbed each day... sigh), and that's still minuscule anecdotal data that serves no statistical purpose whatsoever. If you want to compare your accounts' RNG, then write down each account's exact drops (per number of fights or spins) over many months, and then compare their respective averages. I already know what you'll find: they all experience the same drop rate. It's just that, you know... random is random. The statistical anomaly would be if your six accounts actually had their good runs and bad runs in sync. So yeah, I'm afraid your crazy talk about drops rates and "two-tier RNG" is just crazy talk.

As for Blaa's post, he made a simple joke to Observer about his shockingly obsolete computer, in relation to his infamous "no spending" self-imposed koban policy. It wasn't about Hentai Clicker, or to discuss old computers in any serious capacity (I don't think). You missed the joke, it happens. But maybe don't start another off-topic discussion about computers from there?

As a side note, (but sort of going back on topic) you seem to be too distracted to even analyze art properly these days, something you're usually good at (and your posts on art are usually great reads as far as I'm concerned). I wish you would focus on that a bit more again. I'm convinced that if you put your glasses on and actually look, you will notice that Kelina's dead eyes are not alone in this event, and that the same artist (hint: we call him Dead Eyes, now ^^) also handled Nuladva and Hari, for instance. Looking forward to that kind of posts from you soon, my friend. Until then, take it easy, relax, and stay safe! Good luck, have fun.

[Antimon]

10 ore fa, Darsca ha scritto:

This event currently running my main on Nutaku has been slowly dropping behind the curve day by day until today, where it suddenly picked up nearly all the slack at once (40 shards in 30 battles! 😋).

Same. After my previous post in which I "complained" about Ninja spy stinginess, I got to 160 fights with still only 5 drops/28 shards for Hedonia. I even refilled once cause I was starting to worry a little, but I should have been a little more patient, 'cause Ninja Spy's drops skyrocketed. I got 14 drops in 47 fights and completed Hedonia way earlier than what I feared seeing the tragic beginning: 207 total fights, perfectly on average

[Gremlinking]

I voted for Hedonia, although it is possible that Nika, who isn't my type at all, turns out to be the best of this lot.   I get that hentai doesn't and shouldn't be realistic but whats up with Leedit's thighs (after her pose 1), or Zoe's nose, or Kelina's neck?  Random parts of the body are drawn in a random exaggerated way.  Seriously, I was looking forward to getting Leedit after her display pose, but then she turns out to have these male bodybuilder thighs.  Its distracting.

[Čamuga]

19 minutes ago, Gremlinking said:

I voted for Hedonia, although it is possible that Nika, who isn't my type at all, turns out to be the best of this lot.   I get that hentai doesn't and shouldn't be realistic but whats up with Leedit's thighs (after her pose 1), or Zoe's nose, or Kelina's neck?  Random parts of the body are drawn in a random exaggerated way.  Seriously, I was looking forward to getting Leedit after her display pose, but then she turns out to have these male bodybuilder thighs.  Its distracting.

If u don't mind reading essays, just read @DvDivXXX's comments on art and you'll see how far the complaints go, and that's just from the initial poses lmao  

[Dr. Lust]

Leedit....male "bodybuilder thighs"?  I guess that's the perfect example of beauty being in the eye's of the beholder.  I see a cartoon/drawing/hentai character with well toned legs.   I'm happy to see some such characters.

Now if the artist was to take it as far as drawing a girl with thighs like Arnold Schwarzenegger, then I'd agree with you.  That'd be gross in my eyes.  But well toned for me = sexy.

It's great this website covers a varied range of players definitions of beauty.  And for me, overall, perhaps because I'm a F2P gamer I have no complaints on the artwork. 
 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Dr. Lust