[ August 2nd, 2023 ] Girl Skills 💡

[Methos2]

6 minutes ago, MrXY said:

But that should make no difference. You can get a drop from every fight, not for finishing one stage.

Thanks. I thought the bulbs are rewarded at the end of the match. Using back button on champions all the time kept my ignorance.

[DvDivXXX]

I'm studying Reflect more and more closely, as it's the biggest obstacle for me right now (and many others no doubt).

We already established that your own LifeSteal doesn't work when you hit yourself due to the opponent's Reflect.

Now I'm seriously wondering if our own Defense is correctly taken into account or not. I'm honestly worried the 80% of our own damage we take in the face might be "pure damage". Does anyone have info or data to answer this?

I've been watching a lot of fights in slow-motion against Reflect defending teams (in Season, I can't afford to test it out in League) and it looks like I'm taking more damage than I should if Reflect just simulated a hit at -20% strength. Especially since I've acquired a 5th MG piece with the Defense secondary bonus for my Blue set, so I now have almost a third of my own Attack as Defense. But I'm still taking almost as much damage as my opponent when I hit, even when they have 40k Defense and I have 60k. =/

[Horsting]

11 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

Now I'm seriously wondering if our own Defense is correctly taken into account or not. I'm honestly worried the 80% of our own damage we take in the face might be "pure damage". Does anyone have info or data to answer this?

I would not wonder, since the damage is reduced by the opponent's defence already, so there is not double reduction.

[DvDivXXX]

7 hours ago, Horsting said:

I would not wonder, since the damage is reduced by the opponent's defence already, so there is not double reduction.

Thanks. So you're saying that Reflects is pure damage, but equal to "only" 80% of the damage we actually do to the opponent?

So if I hit for 220k (no crit) and they have 50k of Defense, I do 170k of actual damage to them, then I take 136k of pure damage to the face from their Reflect, ignoring my own Defense completely?

If that's how it works, then Defense doesn't do anything against Reflect teams (sure, it does reduce the damage I take from their attacks, but my problem is typically that I'm taking more damage from Reflect alone than from the other team's hits). This has a lot of implications, starting with Chlorella being a lot better than Ginseng against these, even more so than I expected. Both the extra HP and the bigger Shield help tanking the Reflect damage, this I've seen first hand for sure. Knowing that on top of that Defense doesn't work, and since reducing my own Attack is also something beneficial to make Reflect less devastating... Ginseng isn't the way to go.

What I don't get is how Cordyceps could be similar or even better than Chlorella in that situation? I'm guessing you meant in general rather than against a Reflect team specifically. It sounds to me that going with a super strong Attack would kill the opponent faster, but also damage myself way more in the process, and even with a Shield and fairly high LifeSteal, I can't see any hope of healing back up enough to score decently that way.

The next thing I'll try will be 4 chlores, no LM and perhaps even a slightly worse team to reduce the large Attack boost I'm getting from GS3s right now. It will take trial and error as I want to tank the Reflect better while still doing enough damage to them to heal back up significantly, and so that the fight doesn't last too long after my Shield gets destroyed.

[Antimon]

I'm officially broke, ymens speaking yay~

Next week I'll have to decide what to do. Currently I have 0 intentions to sell 100+ equip pieces for girl every monday... Oof...

[jelom]

6 hours ago, Antimon said:

I'm officially broke, ymens speaking yay~

Next week I'll have to decide what to do. Currently I have 0 intentions to sell 100+ equip pieces for girl every monday... Oof...

(KK thoughs: "Deplete user resources mission achieved")

[Horsting]

15 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

So if I hit for 220k (no crit) and they have 50k of Defense, I do 170k of actual damage to them, then I take 136k of pure damage to the face from their Reflect, ignoring my own Defense completely?

I do not know it, but in the patch notes it says "Reflect X% of the damage taken in the first 2 rounds", i.e. "damage", not "attack power" reflection (in the game they changed that word to "impact"). So it is reduced by the opponent's defence already. And as "damage" is always pure and reduced already, it would be somehow logic that it is not reduced again by your own defence. But better check back with the actual values, if you can catch them with screenshots or so. Ah, it is even possible to find them in AJAX data: https://forum.kinkoid.com/index.php?/topic/30697-august-2nd-2023-girl-skills-💡/page/21/#comment-299462

 

15 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

This has a lot of implications, starting with Chlorella being a lot better than Ginseng against these, even more so than I expected. Both the extra HP and the bigger Shield help tanking the Reflect damage, this I've seen first hand for sure. Knowing that on top of that Defense doesn't work, and since reducing my own Attack is also something beneficial to make Reflect less devastating... Ginseng isn't the way to go.

Makes sense. Another point for Chlorella vs Ginseng.

15 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

What I don't get is how Cordyceps could be similar or even better than Chlorella in that situation? I'm guessing you meant in general rather than against a Reflect team specifically. It sounds to me that going with a super strong Attack would kill the opponent faster, but also damage myself way more in the process, and even with a Shield and fairly high LifeSteal, I can't see any hope of healing back up enough to score decently that way.

But with super low AP, your opponent might do this damage to you instead of yourself, so it probably does not really make much difference. Either you defeat the opponent very fast with high damage, take 2 high reflects but not many more attacks, or you defeat the opponent slower, taking 2 lower reflects, but have the opponent doing more attacks instead.

But probably you are right that Chlorella is better against opponents with reflect skill. I did not have a look into opponents' GS5 when comparing the boosters. As long as there are just a few opponents with reflect skill in defensive team, it is most likely not worth it to boost 4 Chlorella (no Cordyceps) only for that, loosing E[X] against others, but still interesting to check whether there is a pattern which boosters are better against which GS5.

[Horsting]

13 hours ago, Antimon said:

Currently I have 0 intentions to sell 100+ equip pieces for girl every monday... Oof...

Why? What do you aim to do with the equip pieces instead? Today's LC at least gives a good opportunity to collect a lot of Ymen from champs. And as it is weekend, most can babysit those for a longer while.

[Ravi-Sama]

18 hours ago, Antimon said:

I'm officially broke, ymens speaking yay~

Next week I'll have to decide what to do. Currently I have 0 intentions to sell 100+ equip pieces for girl every monday... Oof...

I'm in a similar situation.  I have ~260 mil ymens atm, and can sell ~2.1 billion ymens worth of gear for funds, but I think it's about time I transitioned to a dedicated team, like virgo, black hair, or blue eyes.  I have enough bulbs for 1 M6 (31) and ~4 L5s atm (4x23).  Next week's blessings are 25% mythic, so it's not really necessary to build a team based on skills.  I can leave my Alt. Finalmecia as a 40% shield bearer, and just use 6 other M6s, making a balanced team, supported by my balanced m gear set.  Lovebot Norou is the only one blessed 50%, so I'll just include her and probably 2 doms, another sensual, 1 sub, and an exhibitionist.

Sunday is LC day 4 for GXP, which works out well, right before new blessings.

5 hours ago, Horsting said:

Why? What do you aim to do with the equip pieces instead?

It's true, there's only 2 uses for them.  Sell them or use as them as mythic gear fodder.  Most of this equipment was obtained by spending GPx10s, but they were stored for a month for the LC, so it's not like I'll be able to reacquire them easily.  I'd rather have them in reserve for emergencies, like when I get some useful m gear, or need funds to build a semi-permanent team.

Either way, I think it's tempting to skip resetting girl skills for this next week.

I'll move these comments over to the skill thread.

[Antimon]

7 ore fa, Horsting ha scritto:

Why? What do you aim to do with the equip pieces instead? Today's LC at least gives a good opportunity to collect a lot of Ymen from champs. And as it is weekend, most can babysit those for a longer while.

Key point of my initial comment: every monday

On top of what @Ravi-Samacorrectly said, selling 700+ equips weekly won't be sustainable for long, and I simply find it excrutiantingly boring the idea of *having to* do that systematically every single week to stay competitive for at most a couple of months more (before hitting the massive bankrupt of no ymens+no equips available to be sold)

Edited October 21, 2023 by Antimon

[DvDivXXX]

17 hours ago, Horsting said:

Either you defeat the opponent very fast with high damage, take 2 high reflects but not many more attacks, or you defeat the opponent slower, taking 2 lower reflects, but have the opponent doing more attacks instead.

(Thanks for your entire post, this helps, I'm just quoting this part as it's the most relevant to what I'm about to write).

Shield (Player) vs Reflect (Opponent)

Round 1

1. My Turn: I hit them once "for free", then I activate my Shield.
2. Their Turn: They hit my shield, then they activate their Reflect for the next two rounds.

Round 2

1. My Turn: I hit them, then I hit my own shield for 80% of the damage I just did to them.
2. Their Turn: They hit what's left of my shield and/or my face already if we had critical hits.

Round 3

1. My Turn: I hit them,
   then I heal a bit from my LifeSteal (if my Shield is already gone),
   then I take 80% of the damage I just did to them (or less if I had still had some Shield)
2. Their Turn: They hit the last tidbit of my Shield (if there were no crits in either round),
   then my face.

Round 4

Reflect is over, my Shield is definitely destroyed no matter what, and we start a "regular" fight. Except that the amount of HP we each have left depends heavily on how hard we each hit and how many crits happened in Rounds 2 and 3. From then on, I actually heal when I hit.

That's the basics of what I've observed and gathered from our exchange above.

I'm still not entirely sure whether the fight is stopped immediately when my opponent's HP reaches 0, or if I my current turn still unfolds entirely. Or, third possibility, it might stop the fight after I heal from LifeSteal but before their Reflect hits me. This is crucial for two very different routes I'm considering right now.

1. If winning does interrupt the fight on the spot (or after my LifeSteal but before their Reflect), then if I can hit them hard enough to actually defeat them on Round 2 or possibly even Round 3, it should be worth going all-in on Attack for this, as it would largely avoid the brunt of the Reflect damage.
    
2. If winning doesn't interrupt the fight on the spot (or after my LifeSteal but before their Reflect), then it might be safer and more reliable to aim for a Round 4+ win, making myself as tanky as possible while still doing enough damage to eventually win after the Reflect phase, ideally after healing most of the damage back up.

That's where I'm at on the Reflect riddle.

----

Beyond that, I can confirm that 4 Chlorella is terrible for me in general, far weaker than 4 Ginseng, hands down, even with my full Mythic Shield. Except exactly against Reflect defending teams, and even those I can't confidently go after right now as I'm getting pretty underwhelming 20-ish points predictions from the sims even with 4 chlores. My LM hasn't expired yet, and I've equipped the chlores too early, I think. Turning it down is probably vital too. Problem is I can't use up my LM while I have the chlores equipped, as it makes my best sim result fall barely above 22 points against most "regular" opponents (down from solid 24s or 23.80+s with 4 gins). V_v

So 4 Ginseng > 4 Chlorella for me specifically, at the very least (against most opponents). It doesn't mean there isn't a combination with some chlores thrown in that won't be better than 4 gins for me, but it definitely means Ginseng isn't outright dethroned by Chlorella as the go-to booster in my situation. And now I've actually tried, so this isn't just a feeling, it's a very clear observation.

Maybe shit like 2 chlores 2 cordys or even 2 chlores 1 cordy 1 gin or whatever else will turn out to be the new magic recipe for me, but 4 chlores is definitely not "it". And again, 4 gins is still a very valid option for me. I see anything and everything on my opponents as I said earlier on, so I'm sure lots of people are going through lots of trial and error phases as we speak. But the best combo will probably not be the same one-size-fits-all for all players. I'm thinking it will vary a lot from one account to the next.

At least, it's not boring and obvious. Gotta give 'em that. ^^

[Methos2]

1 hour ago, DvDivXXX said:

Except exactly against Reflect defending teams, and even those I can't confidently go after right now as I'm getting pretty underwhelming 20-ish points predictions from the sims even with 4 chlores.

The sims could be lying to you. You should try fighting with 4 chlorella. Fight a dozen of opponents or so to be sure of the result. 😋

 

To others who're wondering, I'm in his league this week. 😛

Edited October 22, 2023 by Methos2

[Horsting]

7 hours ago, Methos2 said:

The sims could be lying to you. You should try fighting with 4 chlorella. Fight a dozen of opponents or so to be sure of the result. 😋

I would definitely trust the sims more than a small sample of a dozen fights 😉. There is no reason to not trust them, they were accurate regarding average, min and max through thousands of fights. Whoops, didn't see the joke 😄.

9 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

Beyond that, I can confirm that 4 Chlorella is terrible for me in general, far weaker than 4 Ginseng, hands down

From ~24 to ~20 average for the whole league incl. fought opponents? Very unexpected since for me it was constantly the other way round, thought I never observed such a huge drop with any change in boosters, but more like from 23 to 22. But of course possible as of the different progress and team compositions.

9 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

If winning does interrupt the fight on the spot (or after my LifeSteal but before their Reflect)

You definitely get LifeSteal for your last hit which defeats the opponent. I would expect your last damage to not be reflected anymore, but should be easy to watch.

I see the problem with reflect. For sure the most annoying and likely also strongest (in how many points you take away from our opponents) defensive skill. It makes sense that it turns short fights (when you do much damage) into a disadvantage, as more of the damage you (have to) do to your opponent is reflected. Would be interesting to compare Chlorella with Cordyceps in these cases. Not so much for booster decision (24h stuck with weaker boosters just for a small number of reflect opponents does probably not work out), but in general to compare X% AP with X% ego, and whether e.g. an ego bonus MG set makes sense against reflect.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Horsting

[DvDivXXX]

@Horsting as he said in his edit, Methos was strictly joking about not trusting the sims. ^^ I'm currently in the lead and the overall favorite for our group, so he was just making a tongue in cheek point that I should do some fights with my bad chlorella setup, so that I lose plenty of points. That was pretty funny, honestly. ^^

2 hours ago, Horsting said:

From ~24 to ~20 average for the whole league incl. fought opponents? Very unexpected since for me it was constantly the other way round, thought I never observed such a huge drop with any change in boosters, but more like from 23 to 22. But of course possible as of the different progress and team compositions.

Not exactly. What I'm seeing is way worse sim results for most opponents, including ones I've already beaten with perfect scores (using 4 gins instead of 4 chlores), from ~24 to ~22 on average.

And on top of that, even against the couple of opponents for whose pesky Reflect teams I've equipped the chlores to begin with, I'm only up to ~20 at not even 100% (compared to ~18 at 90%). Especially some damn guy (who was already in my group last week, with the same fully skilled Nike strategy, and way too tanky to beat before taking the full Reflect):

You can even see I'm expected to barely average 21 against Methos, with those damn chlores! ^^ That's pretty telling. /jk

And 22 against an unboosted Elundril, and so on. I had a reasonable shot at making (close to) perfect scores on them with with 4 gins instead.

I did just take care of one other Reflect team with a good enough result, 25/23/23, but that one only has his Nike GS5 at level 3 (and much lower stats in general). But overall this experiment didn't pan out at all.

[Pelinor]

On 10/19/2023 at 12:16 AM, MrXY said:

But that should make no difference. You can get a drop from every fight, not for finishing one stage.

It makes no difference; the chance for a drop is there (of course), but my reality is going through 4 of 5 of the champions to get common and rare bulbs. I have gotten exactly two legendary and zero mythic bulbs in the champion fights. I may not be in the whale category anymore, but I am a veteran who placed in the top four every season until this so-called "girl skills" mess. When even the script guys cannot give consistent actual odds on the PVP combats due to the skills, it drains the life out of even trying.

[Horsting]

54 minutes ago, DvDivXXX said:

Methos was strictly joking about not trusting the sims. ^^

Whoops, thanks, see the smileys now 😄.

55 minutes ago, DvDivXXX said:

Not exactly. What I'm seeing is way worse sim results for most opponents, including ones I've already beaten with perfect scores (using 4 gins instead of 4 chlores), from ~24 to ~22 on average.

I see you use the HH++ simulator. Then of course Ginseng is shown as better, as it does not respect GS5 at all. Use Rena's simulator, else you get wrong results.

[Tom208]

Il y a 3 heures, Horsting a dit :

I see you use the HH++ simulator. Then of course Ginseng is shown as better, as it does not respect GS5 at all. Use Rena's simulator, else you get wrong results.

@DvDivXXX Or you can use my script too 😁😉

[Rylarth]

i am also messing around a Little with different booster combination to optimise the use of the shield skill i am thinking 1cordy 1Ginseng and 2chlorellia might actually be better than 4xchlorellia i still think 4xchlorellia might actually perform better vs reflect opponents since it doesnt increase your attack it just makes you super tanky i also wish kinkoid could fix how bugged the League is at the momment right now i have to double Check every single opponents to see if their stats is actually correct since some randomly have their boosted stats while being unboosted there is no point in adding a booster detector if it doesnt work🤪

[Ravi-Sama]

15 hours ago, Rylarth said:

i also wish kinkoid could fix how bugged the League is at the momment right now i have to double Check every single opponents to see if their stats is actually correct since some randomly have their boosted stats while being unboosted there is no point in adding a booster detector if it doesnt work🤪

It's always been this way.  One method was to sort by expected score, and just attack the 25s (simplest).  Right now, I'm sorting by rank, and going after the high rankers, if their expected score is 24.5+.  If you filter out boosted players, and still see a low expected score, then they're probably still actually boosted.  If I see like 140k Atk, or 1 mil+ Ego, then they're likely still boosted.  Either that, or they're a saavy tier 5 girl skilled player.  Sometimes, I'll see a lower expected score on a player, even if they're actually un-boosted b/c they're using Stun or Reflect.  Reflect is definitely the biggest pain in the ass on defense imo.  It's like attacking yourself.

We were in the same league bracket last week, both using Shield. I think we took 2nd and 3rd place.

*Fist Bump* 👊

[Master-17]

@Horstingyou asked for the results of x3 battles indicating possible results. Here it is.

As you can see, Rena v.3 simulator shows an almost one hundred percent chance of winning with a maximum score (25). However, based on the result of x3 battle, 3(!) points were lost. So either skills are not taken into account during multi-battles, or this is such a mega-bad attempt, which I personally highly doubt. So in any case, I definitely won’t use multi-fights anymore.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Master-17

[Horsting]

3 hours ago, Master-17 said:

As you can see, Rena v.3 simulator shows an almost one hundred percent chance of winning with a maximum score (25). However, based on the result of x3 battle, 3(!) points were lost.

Still, 69 points would have been possible as well 😛. A prove would have been a 68 points or less in this case. But indeed, with 24.9974 E[P] it is extremely unlikely and together with some other results I think we can be sure that multi-battles are still buggy.

[MrXY]

We had some discussions here about skills 1, 2, 3 and 5 but 4 is missing, at least I don't remember it, but we have 22 pages and I don't know how to search for it^^. Maybe its effect is underwhelming in comparison to others? Not sure, but I'm interested in your opinions.

Assuming you have 31 + 2 * 21  = 73 mythic bulbs. It is clear to spend to first batch on one girl to have a maxed out GS5 skill. For the rest it is possible to either have

a) 2 mythic girls with full GS3 skill

b) one with GS2/GS3/GS4 and one with GS2

Don't take this comparison too serious, it maybe depends a lot on other things, but for now I do not completly understand how this skill works and how important its effect is in comporison to GS3. Are all GS4 skills from all girls added together, so you probably have an increasing attack of ~6% with each attack?

[DvDivXXX]

1 hour ago, MrXY said:

Maybe its effect is underwhelming in comparison to others? Not sure, but I'm interested in your opinions.

It isn't, GS4 is quite strong especially when stacked. It's just that there are no real decisions or shenanigans involved with it. In sharp contrast to GS3 or even GS5, it's as simple and straightforward as can be: if a girl is in your team and she has her GS4 skilled, then that gets added to the increasing effect you get per hit throughout the combat. So there isn't much to discuss. It's good, it has no tricky requirement slash synergy or restriction, you can just put the light bulbs for it on as many girls as you can all the time (the effects from each team member stack, up to 7 in total). So I recommend doing that.

Of course right now on dot com with mythic girls and dark pink as low buffs from blessings, that's not a realistic option for non-whales. But most weeks, I have my one mythic fully skilled up to GS5, plus up to 4 L5s skilled up to and including GS4, plus a few of lower rarities if/when possible and relevant.

I can't really give an answer to your example, as it would greatly depend on how many girls the GS3 of the second Mythic girl would buff. If you can have two mythic-tiered GS3s that apply to the whole team, that's definitely stronger than having one more girl with a GS4 incremental buff. Outside of a perfect storm like that for strong GS3 stacking, though, I'd take an extra GS4 stack (especially mythic) over an extra GS3 that only applies to a couple of girls in the team.

1 hour ago, MrXY said:

or now I do not completly understand how this skill works and how important its effect is in comporison to GS3. Are all GS4 skills from all girls added together, so you probably have an increasing attack of ~6% with each attack?

Yup. On paper up to 7% increase per hit (with a team of 7 Mythics each giving +1%, in a distant future). But already 0.8% per L5 (or the two E5s if/when they're ever relevant), and 0.6% for R5s and even C5s. The longer the fight, the more it pays off.

[Horsting]

15 hours ago, MrXY said:

Assuming you have 31 + 2 * 21  = 73 mythic bulbs. It is clear to spend to first batch on one girl to have a maxed out GS5 skill. For the rest it is possible to either have

a) 2 mythic girls with full GS3 skill

b) one with GS2/GS3/GS4 and one with GS2

Given that GS4 just always has full effect and is stronger than the GS3 bonus a girl gets for herself (GS4 gives +1% on first attack/round already), I would max out 1 until GS4 and safe the remaining mythic bulbs until you can at least max out another one until GS3 with some matching traits for the team this/next week, or until GS4 directly. Investing 16 bulbs for a minor stats increase where you are not even sure whether you will use the girl (uff, "use a girl" sounds, well ...) when you could skill her valuable GS3 and/or GS4 is IMO not worth it.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Horsting

[Marc121212]

The icon of GS5 changed to... this

Edited October 25, 2023 by Marc121212