Beating on a dead (but Charming) horse.

[J.D.]

So, forum newbie here. My first post is gonna be a already beaten subject, I suspect,  but there is no way I can go without being the 103207th person to complain about it.

The PVP system on HH is not great, this we all know. But theres so much you can do considering how the game was implemented, and I actually don't eee a problem with it in theory. The thing is, if you have a combat system that is purely mathematical so you SHOULD have balanced numbers so no one feels cheated.

And there is absuletely NO WAY that is the case.

The difference between KH and HC doesnt feel to be that big. Judging by what I see happening in combat, the extra damage dealt by a HC crit is close (albeit a bit less) than the life a KH crit grants. Im willing to let HC crit for avarage a bit less since sometimes you can get those nasty Orgasm+HCCrit combo that make ppl do over 50k damage at lvl 200.

Charm on the other hand. Man. Charm crit is completely shit it doenst matter how you try to make it work out. It effects ranges from 1/4 of the benefit of HC/KH crits if you go for main stat stacking strategy (that is the most common) to roughtly 1/2 in an all multi stat purple item stack (wich implies you will have a lot less ego - what makes the defense gain almost moot since you dont soak enough to make it worth, a lot less damage and will take longer to orgasm).

Ive tried everything: the 2 most normal builds cited above obviously; also balanced builds trying just to keep a good amount of crit chance (basically half/half - trying to keep orgasms before OP but the higher possible amount of defenses and crit); pure damage builds with 2 HC girls in Beta and Omega. Other mixes of specialties. Nothing makes me feel Im just crap compared to the other specs.

You can check my profile, but it wont help much since Im always changing my lineup and itens testing things. But im fully maxed out on stats and have full epic multi-stat itens in bank that i get trowing money away at pachinko trying to get epic Charm itens and only get HC ones/ and I got up to date rares of my specialty or equivalent lower level legendaries. I have F&F and M Noemy at 5 stars as base girls and a bunch of others to Omega. I also have Regine leveled up since she is the highest Charm HC girl in the game I used as Beta when I tried to damage stack with 2 HC girls.

Anyway, we all know this. The thing is, you can basically "survive" in the game being a little bit weaker than the rest because pvp was not that big of a deal. UNTIL we got the tower of fame 'thingy". Now It is just plain visible and hindering to be Charm, and we NEED the devs to fiz the numbers.

It should not be hard. You have a bunch of options:

1) Buffing Charm crits (or nerfing the other ones) - This is the most obvious of the bunch. I have the feeling that bumping it to 3X de defense might be enough to start. This is clearly the most simple option.
2) Reformulate multi-stat epics so they are an viable option to Charm players in par with other stat stacking to other specialties. This would probably imply reworking them in such a way that the benefits would be greater for what Charm crit offers in lieu of other specialties, meaning defense. You would probably have to increase defense gained from itens to higher amounts than 0.5 per point so that the end result of the difference in the avarage defense to all HC+KH players and the difference of the avarage defense Charm players actually buffs up Charm enough to make it worth. It looks hard to do it.
3) Rework the Orgasm system to make it being based not on the damage you deal, but on the inverse of the damage you take. That would mean the less damage an player gets dealt, the faster it orgasms. And since Charm players would take on avarage less damage, they would orgasm faster. And since the % increase in defense when going from Alfa all the way up tp Omega is actually higher than the % increase in damage when going from Alfa to Omega, Charm players would get even more benefit (If any of you need explanation on this one, let me know). This would as a side effect buff up multi-stat itens as well, since the fact you deal less damage with them wouldnt hinder your capacity of orgasming faster - on the contrary - since you would take less damage with them - but you still would deal less overall damage than single stat stacking.

As an extra, since KH crit is based on a fixed stat, while Charm and HC crits are based on stats that vary during the combat with the addition of Beta and Omega, KH should obviously be chosen as the default crit power around the other crits should be balanced around.

Anyway, sorry if this just come off as ranty to you guys or if this wasnt the place to post it. Also, My english is not good, so sorry about it.

EDIT: some visible typos.

Edited October 10, 2018 by J.D.

[casey]

You can always change your specialty

 

[Daniele]

...or you can leave a game developed by incompetent unable to fix a simple issue like this.
I'm sorry to say this, i don't want to offend anybody, but seriously... with this clear unacceptable unbalanced system devs are making their game (and their development ability) look really bad. I'm ashamed for them.

2 hours ago, J.D. said:

As an extra, since KH crit is based on a fixed stat, while Charm and HC crits are based on stats that vary during the combat with the addition of Beta and Omega

Just to make things even worse, i must inform you that Beta (and omega) doesn't affect the charm ability at all. Only HC takes advantage of beta when she enters in battle, charm crit is related only to your initial defence and remains the same until the end.

[Zorba the Geek]

I agree with all this and, with Justine at 5 stars in this account and levelled out XP, I can vouch for her effectiveness re.critical (called Wild Burst in the harmony system).  I face HC players with some trepidation in KH accounts and will only play them if my defense stats are superior and my harmony percentage is significantly better or on a par with my opponent's.  Then I can usually beat them, even if his/her ego is 5-7k higher than mine.  BUT, as J.D. so eloquently put it, there is no defense against a well-timed Wild Burst attack that is coincidental with orgasm.  In KH accounts, I have been well in the lead only to face a huge wild burst attack and 'boom!' I'm dead.  I usually bite my fingernails close to the end of the battle in case I face one of these.

In my Adrian'smole account I am very fortunate to have Dezy as beta.  She makes a big difference in defense against HC.

Charm is meant to be dominant over HC, but I do not fear charm players even in this account (HC).  Their specialty, known as narcissism, has little impact and it seems a very poor cousin to reassurance, KH's ego restoration specialty.  The whole thing needs real work if it is to be retained as a supposedly fair setup.  If Charm's dominance on paper over HC is to have meaning this needs to be reflected in the results in the game.

I also agree with the comments re. ToF. With the leagues system, this has grabbed a lot of the XP we used to gain in the daily missions (which have been halved).  However, to get any real benefit from this we need to battle players that have high XP levels.  I suspect HH have introduced the leagues to manipulate players into taking part in ToF battles.  I seldom take part because I simply lack the time in the day with other demands on me and this costs me kobans.

The other serious flaw with the revamped arena (since April) is the fact that, in most cases, omegas are mere onlookers and do not have a chance to take part in the performance before it's game over.  Prior to April I was having a lot of fun and success with Princess Noemy as beta in my KH accounts.  I was derided for this but she worked well until the changes, upping my defense against charm and KH.  Then it became a boring straight-run-for-the-line contest heavily based on ego differences with omegas having no purpose whatsoever.  As well as doing the right thing by charm, the whole arena system needs revamping to let the battle last long enough to give omegas a chance to contribute as was the case before April.

Just a point about equipment, I seem to get (for me) a lot of useless charm equipment.  Nor is there anything worthwhile ever offered in the market, and what is on offer is expensive beyond belief!  Epic Pachinko offers legendary multi-stat items, but these are are of limited worth since the value of the stat matching our class is diluted by other stats.  Sure, these improve defense stats and harmony, but I found the real difference under the post-April system comes from single stat epic or legendary items.  The best way to get these seems to be in Great Pachinko x10 plays.  I got three in my classes that way as opposed to none so far in EP, despite playing x10 quite often.  I even got one in the daily GP free play!

[Cantrix]

Sorry to say this, but it's implemented that way in purpose. I don't think they are so ignorant as not to notice the massive difference is preformance. And as a game dev, they probably have a data on the classes' win rates, so even a slight deviation from the 50ish% winrate would be noticable. So rither charm isn't performing as bad as so many people claim to be, or it is done on purpose to discourage people from playing it.  As charm was pretty much dominating back in the day before the pvp revamp and all the legendary and epic fails, many people were rolling with it and were ruling the pvp as they had the best girls then and the crit was the same for everyone. Now there aren't any decent charm girls except for the legendary one and as charm crit SEEMS way undertuned i don't see any valid reason why you should put yourself through this hell being charm. That is unless ofcourse you enjoy being kicked by everyone. Sipmly complete 4 sets of dayly missions collect the kobans and switch a spec as i did ever since the changes in the pvp system were announced.

My respect for the title of the thread though! It was the single epic reason i posted a reply here!

Edited October 18, 2018 by Cantrix

[saberbholt]

The problem is more from conceptual of the batle system construction of players. The devoloprs have a big problem in the base: never at more damage make any can be more supervivence.

But in this game upper the primary (most damage) give most supervivence (more ego), in consecuence the players only need one stat to full and the clase type defense or regenerate live have unbalanced in base.

No only that, the system prime the monostat player: in terms of coust, all stats have some price, for that is more optimus give only your class stat.

 

If was a normal system of construction (more damage --> less supervivance) lot of unbalanced problems not doing; is than easy some primary stat give player +1.5 of ego and +1 from armony, and the secondary's stats give +2.5 of ego. And the resistances for other clases (or damage parrist) your value in that stat (not strange aritmetics operations with stats, only a simple and logic thing). With that and give out the +20% of bonus from the paper-rock system and have a balanced system in construction sets. Before is only make equalizer habilities in numbers with one change Charm need be a vampiric hability: make damage and that damage is agree to is life, no 10% of the ego and  no, damage do and rival is the live you give.

[Daniele]

10 hours ago, Cantrix said:

Sipmly complete 4 sets of dayly missions collect the kobans and switch a spec as i did ever since the changes in the pvp system were announced. 

...or again, leave a stupid game like this, developed by incompetent devs unable to balance only 3 (THREE!!!) classes . I TOTALLY refuse to switch class for a silly reason like this one. I completely lost interest in this game mainly because of this issue, i don't even know why i'm still here... Well done, devs, well done! 👍
Go take up knitting!

By the way, the old charm advantage was just another proof of their bad development ability, but it was almost irrilevant compared to this one. Charm players are just playing a different game right now.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Daniele

[DHarry]

This affects KH too. Because anyone can beat charm, people go HC to gain an advantage over KH. The league is littered with HC players now. So yes, there needs to be balance. Not sure when this will be fixed though. I think they should take their time instead of breaking something else with a quick patch. But it needs addressing. 

[Thefool]

When I lose, I lose to charm players with high harmony. Use rainbow legendaries, charm is fine.

[Daniele]

50 minutes ago, Thefool said:

When I lose, I lose to charm players with high harmony. Use rainbow legendaries, charm is fine.

lol, sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about
Charm players already have enough problems, there's no need to use those useless rainbow crap for more

[Thefool]

23 hours ago, Daniele said:

lol, sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about
Charm players already have enough problems, there's no need to use those useless rainbow crap for more

Well if you can't see how important Harmony is to charm, keep losing and crying on here about it. Not my problem.

[_shal_]

1 hour ago, Thefool said:

Well if you can't see how important Harmony is to charm, keep losing and crying on here about it. Not my problem.

Says the hardcore player who's never actually tried to play that way, I presume... The fact is: Loss of offense with rainbows >>>>> gain of defense with rainbows, even accounting for the increased crit probability. Rainbows aren't even as good as charm epics are, let alone charm legendaries. If you're losing to rainbowed-up charm players, you must not be very good at PvP. (Especially considering that PvP opponents don't even make proper use of harmony...)

Edited October 20, 2018 by _shal_

[Thefool]

3 minutes ago, _shal_ said:

Says the hardcore player who's never actually tried to play that way, I presume... The fact is: Loss of offense with rainbows >>>>> gain of defense with rainbows, even accounting for the increased crit probability. If you're losing to rainbowed-up charm players, you must not be very good at PvP. (Especially considering that PvP opponents don't even make proper use of harmony...)

My stats are all maxed but my ID is 929261. You can check and decide if i'm good at PVP for my level or not. I'm not saying I don't beat them most of the time but when I do lose, it's almost exclusively to players I can't hit crits against, which are almost always charm players with much higher harmony than me due to the rainbow legendaries. I refer to it as the choke.

[Daniele]

2 hours ago, Thefool said:

Well if you can't see how important Harmony is to charm, keep losing and crying on here about it. Not my problem.

I won't waste my time explaining why you're wrong. Use a calculator .

Anyway, i'm charm here on HH, KH on test server and HC on nutaku, i can see the difference between classes for myself. And charm players are a joke to beat for both KH and HC, you can easily beat them even if they have higher stats.

[Urist]

Rather than changing the charm special, maybe just increase defenses across the board.  I'm not going to do the number crunching but maybe if your off-stats gave +0.75 defense per point, or even +1 defense, that would bring the charm special up to an equivalent power with KH and HC. As a bonus, fights would last longer, maybe making the omega actually matter.

[Mythos]

4 hours ago, Urist said:

Rather than changing the charm special, maybe just increase defenses across the board.  I'm not going to do the number crunching but maybe if your off-stats gave +0.75 defense per point, or even +1 defense, that would bring the charm special up to an equivalent power with KH and HC. As a bonus, fights would last longer, maybe making the omega actually matter.

There's a problem with this suggestion: if defenses will be higher, then we'll do less damage and so Ego will have much more value, giving advantage to the KH special. So if there will be an increase on defense, then the percentage of Ego restored by KH special we'll have to be reduced accordingly.

Also if they increase defenses too much the fights will last too long, thus I think an increase to +1 defense per stat point will be too much.

[Chthugha]

9 hours ago, Mythos said:

There's a problem with this suggestion: if defenses will be higher, then we'll do less damage and so Ego will have much more value, giving advantage to the KH special. So if there will be an increase on defense, then the percentage of Ego restored by KH special we'll have to be reduced accordingly.

Also if they increase defenses too much the fights will last too long, thus I think an increase to +1 defense per stat point will be too much.

That is a faulty argument. The hardcore special depends on your attack value, and multiplies it by 1.5 before the defenses are subtracted to get the damage done. Higher defenses do nothing to the power of the hardcore special.

[DHarry]

8 hours ago, Mythos said:

giving advantage to the KH special. 

I dont see the problem. 🤔😂

[Mythos]

20 hours ago, Chthugha said:

That is a faulty argument. The hardcore special depends on your attack value, and multiplies it by 1.5 before the defenses are subtracted to get the damage done. Higher defenses do nothing to the power of the hardcore special.

I'm sorry but it's you at fault here: I talked about KH (Know-How) special, not the HC (Hardcore) one.

[GeorgeMTO]

3 minutes ago, Mythos said:

I'm sorry but it's you at fault here: I talked about KH (Know-How) special, not the HC (Hardcore) one.

The KH skill is roughly equal in strength to the HC one, only charm lags behind. By reducing the KH skill you disrupt that balance. That's the point that I think Chthugha is making. So in order to implement your suggestion of raising defences, both HC and KH skills would now require tweaking.

[Mythos]

14 hours ago, DHarry said:

I dont see the problem. 🤔😂

Easy example:
Damage 20, defense 5, ego 150. Without any crits it will take exactly 10 attacks to kill opponent (20 - 5 = 15; 150 / 15 = 10). If KH crits it will gain 1 more turn (10% of 150 = 15).
Damage 20, defense 10, ego 150. Without any crits it will take exactly 15 attacks to kill opponent (20 - 10 = 10; 150 / 10 = 15). If KH crits it will gain 1,5 more turns (10% of 150 = 15).
In this example if defense is doubled, the effectiveness of KH special will be 50% more.

In general in every system with Attack, Defense and Health, if Defense is increased Health gets more value and Attack less.

 

1 minute ago, GeorgeMTO said:

The KH skill is roughly equal in strength to the HC one, only charm lags behind. By reducing the KH skill you disrupt that balance. That's the point that I think Chthugha is making. So in order to implement your suggestion of raising defences, both HC and KH skills would now require tweaking.

First: it's not my suggestion but of Urist. Second: as you can see by the example before, if you increase defenses the attack value will automatically be hindered, but the ego value will be boosted.

 

20 hours ago, Chthugha said:

The hardcore special depends on your attack value, and multiplies it by 1.5 before the defenses are subtracted to get the damage done. Higher defenses do nothing to the power of the hardcore special.

Also I just noticed that Jessie here is saying the opposite:

Quote

So, in theory, it's possible that HC will crit damage, but charm will also auto boosted shield at the same time?  I know some figures have already been run, but has this scenario been covered in the thread so far?

- Yes, this scenario can happen. The defenses are being subtracted first, and then the damage is being multiplied by the bonus of Wild burst. Keep in mind that if the defenses are high enough, boosting them can lead to 0 damage to be taken.

This happens only when both crits? Seems strange...

[Chthugha]

2 hours ago, Mythos said:

Easy example:
Damage 20, defense 5, ego 150. Without any crits it will take exactly 10 attacks to kill opponent (20 - 5 = 15; 150 / 15 = 10). If KH crits it will gain 1 more turn (10% of 150 = 15).
Damage 20, defense 10, ego 150. Without any crits it will take exactly 15 attacks to kill opponent (20 - 10 = 10; 150 / 10 = 15). If KH crits it will gain 1,5 more turns (10% of 150 = 15).
In this example if defense is doubled, the effectiveness of KH special will be 50% more.

In general in every system with Attack, Defense and Health, if Defense is increased Health gets more value and Attack less.

Same example but now for hardcore, because you seem to forget you have to look at the whole picture and not just part of it...

Attack 20, defense 5, ego 150. It takes 10 turns. If hardcore crits, you do 40-5=35 damage, reducing the amount of turns needed by 1 to 9 turns. And you do more extra damage then know how in defense can heal back (20 vs 15).

Attack 20, defense 10, ego 150. It takes 15 turns. If you crit, you do 40-10=30 damage. You take away 2 turns, which is more than ego heals (20 vs 15).

That is why you were wrong with your assumption. Nothing changes for know-how and hardcore if the defense goes up. They will stay relatively the same strength. Which is why I said your argument is faulty, because you only look at part of the problem, instead of the whole problem.

 

[_shal_]

3 hours ago, Mythos said:

Also I just noticed that Jessie here is saying the opposite:

That statement was either outright wrong or was stated in a terribly confused way. The charm special is always a fixed adjustment to the defensive value only, regardless of what type of offense is coming in (normal, with orgasm, with HC special, with both). It doesn't get boosted by anything whatsoever - not even by active beta and omega girls. (Needless to say, the HC special does take advantage of betas and omegas...)

Indeed, it would have been rather surprising if it had worked as described there, because even "normal" defenses aren't subtracted first. It's always damage = offense x multipliers - defense. The charm special merely adds another term to the defensive side.

Edited October 23, 2018 by _shal_

[Mythos]

36 minutes ago, Chthugha said:

Same example but now for hardcore, because you seem to forget you have to look at the whole picture and not just part of it...

Attack 20, defense 5, ego 150. It takes 10 turns. If hardcore crits, you do 40-5=35 damage, reducing the amount of turns needed by 1 to 9 turns. And you do more extra damage then know how in defense can heal back (20 vs 15).

Attack 20, defense 10, ego 150. It takes 15 turns. If you crit, you do 40-10=30 damage. You take away 2 turns, which is more than ego heals (20 vs 15).

That is why you were wrong with your assumption. Nothing changes for know-how and hardcore if the defense goes up. They will stay relatively the same strength. Which is why I said your argument is faulty, because you only look at part of the problem, instead of the whole problem.

You are right: I was not looking at the whole picture, maybe because I'm used to systems that multiply damage after the defense is applied.
But for the sake of correctness, your calculations are wrong cause HC crits doesn't do double damage but multiply by 1.5, so it becomes this:

Damage 20, defense 5, ego 150. Without any crits it will take exactly 10 attacks to kill opponent. If HC crits it will only do 10 more damage without speeding up things. It would take two crits to reduce the lenght of the fight.
Damage 20, defense 10, ego 150. Without any crits it will take exactly 15 attacks to kill opponent. If HC crits it will still do 10 more damage, but this time is enough to reduce the fight of 1 turn.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Mythos

[Chthugha]

3 minutes ago, Mythos said:

You are right: I was not looking at the whole picture, maybe because I'm used to systems that multiply damage after the defense is applied.
But for the sake of correctness, your calculations are wrong cause HC crits doesn't do double damage but multiply by 1.5, so it becomes this:

Damage 20, defense 5, ego 150. Without any crits it will take exactly 10 attacks to kill opponent. If HC crits it will only do 10 more damage without speeding up things. It would take two crits to reduce the lenght of the fight.
Damage 20, defense 10, ego 150. Without any crits it will take exactly 15 attacks to kill opponent. If HC crits it will still do 10 more damage, but this time is enough to reduce the fight of 1 turn.

Yeah, you're right, I always forget it's 1.5x. Maybe because I don't have a HC account.
Anyway, the difference in strength between the hardcore and know-how crits stays the same.
If the difference is half a turn advantage for one of the two, it stays like that.
The only thing changing is the charm skill if you double everybody's defense, and that's what people want.

Now I wouldn't say doubling defense is enough, but that's a different question.