Rock, Paper, Scissors

[ZackMacKenzie]

Rock, Paper, Scissors used to be quite the popular pastime at Arkham, but no longer. After a number of eyes were lost to celebrations of Scissors-beats-Paper, the staff decided that the inmates couldn't even be trusted handling imaginary scissors, so they banned the use of them.  Hence the game Rock, Paper was born.

Rock, Paper continued for an extremely brief time before the crafty criminals realized that the game no longer worked.  Paper beat Rock, but Rock beat...nothing.  In no time at all players simply played Paper vs Paper over, and over, and over again.  (Some also argued the fact that an eyeball-safe game was less fun for the criminally insane.)  In short order, the inmates found better things to do, like fantasizing mayhem and planning to escape.

 

Why this odd (and hopefully funny) tale?

Charm is Scissors.

That makes Know-How Rock and Hardcore Paper.

We may not be playing Rock, Paper yet, but it seems to me that we're headed there fast.

As I've advanced through the levels of the game, Charm opponents have become increasingly scarce and Hardcore increasingly common. I see triple Hardcore more often than I see double Charm.  At this point I'm a concerned citizen.

In my S1 League (roughly the median League by population) nearly half are Hardcore with the other half almost evenly split between Know-How and Charm.

1. Of the top 10 level heroes — 2 are HC, 2 are KH and 6 are Charm.  Charm is the clear loser.
2. Also the top 10 Ego heroes — 2 are HC, 2 are KH and 6 are Charm (3 of the top 4 in fact).  Again, Charm is the clear loser.
3. As far as average level goes — HC and KH are about 202/203 and Charm is just over 210. A another dubious honor for Charm.
4. And in terms of Ego/Level as a normalized measure of power?  HC is 430, KH is 439 and C is 441.  Here Hardcore is a clear winner.

Taken together, these seem to say:

• It's harder to succeed with Charm as they need to work harder to get the same level of success (ego/level and level distribution).
• It's easier to succeed with Hardcore (ego/level and disproportionate population).
• Too many people are abandoning their starting class in favor of Hardcore (disproportionate population).
• Know-How faces to half as many favorable match-ups Vs unfavorable match-ups as Hardcore does.

While 101 accounts out of over 100k isn't all that statistically significant (more importantly, they aren't truly a random sample), all the markers are there to indicate the problem is real. 

We all know that the Charm orgasm power is the weakest of the three classes.  In fact, it seems to be so much weaker that the Harmony bonus for the favorable match-up generally fails to be an advantage over Hardcore's less frequent orgasm power.  We talk about it openly and even advise newbies to just move to HC because it's the best.

 

Are other people seeing the same things in their Arena and League experiences?  Is it as bad or worse in higher Leagues?

 

If these trends hold for the population at large, and either maintain or worsen as you move up in the world then the Devs have a MAJOR problem.  This isn't sustainable.  If it deteriorates any more we'll all end up HC and the game will have lost an important mechanic.  For the long-term health of the game this really needs to be addressed, and soon.

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by ZackMacKenzie
Fixed fatigue-induced mistake in R/P/S winning order

[casey]

5 hours ago, ZackMacKenzie said:

Rock, Paper, Scissors used to be quite the popular pastime at Arkham, but no longer. After a number of eyes were lost to celebrations of Scissors-beats-Paper, the staff decided that the inmates couldn't even be trusted handling imaginary scissors, so they banned the use of them.  Hence the game Rock, Paper was born.

Rock, Paper continued for an extremely brief time before the crafty criminals realized that the game no longer worked.  Rock beat Paper, but Paper beat...nothing.  In no time at all players simply played Rock vs Rock over, and over, and over again.  (Some also argued the fact that an eyeball-safe game was less fun for the criminally insane.)  In short order, the inmates found better things to do, like fantasizing mayhem and planning to escape.

 

Why this odd (and hopefully funny) tale?

Charm is Scissors.

That makes Know-How Paper and Hardcore Rock.

We may not be playing Rock, Paper yet, but it seems to me that we're headed there fast.

As I've advanced through the levels of the game, Charm opponents have become increasingly scarce and Hardcore increasingly common. I see triple Hardcore more often than I see double Charm.  At this point I'm a concerned citizen.

In my S1 League (roughly the median League by population) nearly half are Hardcore with the other half almost evenly split between Know-How and Charm.

1. Of the top 10 level heroes — 2 are HC, 2 are KH and 6 are Charm.  Charm is the clear loser.
2. Also the top 10 Ego heroes — 2 are HC, 2 are KH and 6 are Charm (3 of the top 4 in fact).  Again, Charm is the clear loser.
3. As far as average level goes — HC and KH are about 202/203 and Charm is just over 210. A another dubious honor for Charm.
4. And in terms of Ego/Level as a normalized measure of power?  HC is 430, KH is 439 and C is 441.  Here Hardcore is a clear winner.

Taken together, these seem to say:

• It's harder to succeed with Charm as they need to work harder to get the same level of success (ego/level and level distribution).
• It's easier to succeed with Hardcore (ego/level and disproportionate population).
• Too many people are abandoning their starting class in favor of Hardcore (disproportionate population).
• Know-How has faces to half as many favorable match-ups Vs unfavorable match-ups as Hardcore does.

While 101 accounts out of over 100k isn't all that statistically significant (more importantly, they aren't truly a random sample), all the markers are there to indicate the problem is real. 

We all know that the Charm orgasm power is the weakest of the three classes.  In fact, it seems to be so much weaker that the Harmony bonus for the favorable match-up generally fails to be an advantage over Hardcore's less frequent orgasm power.  We talk about it openly and even advise newbies to just move to HC because it's the best.

 

Are other people seeing the same things in their Arena and League experiences?  Is it as bad or worse in higher Leagues?

 

If these trends hold for the population at large, and either maintain or worsen as you move up in the world then the Devs have a MAJOR problem.  This isn't sustainable.  If it deteriorates any more we'll all end up HC and the game will have lost an important mechanic.  For the long-term health of the game this really needs to be addressed, and soon.

 

I've was always under the impression that "paper" covered "rock" and therefore won

By the way there are some great JAV  videos illustrating this type of contest

[NeoGrey]

You worry about the same thing I do. However, this problem has been mentioned many times but nothing is changed. As a charm type player myself, I do struggle in PvP sometimes.

Edited January 22, 2019 by NeoGrey

[TheSonicSly]

On 1/21/2019 at 9:00 PM, casey said:

I've was always under the impression that "paper" covered "rock" and therefore won

I know right? 😂 To Me and alot of people who play "Rock, Paper, Scissors", it's always been, Rock beats Scissors, Scissors beats Paper and Paper beats Rock. So, yeah, You lost Me on that one. 🤨

[windia]

On 1/21/2019 at 8:08 AM, ZackMacKenzie said:

[...]

In my S1 League (roughly the median League by population) nearly half are Hardcore with the other half almost evenly split between Know-How and Charm.

1. Of the top 10 level heroes — 2 are HC, 2 are KH and 6 are Charm.  Charm is the clear loser.
2. Also the top 10 Ego heroes — 2 are HC, 2 are KH and 6 are Charm (3 of the top 4 in fact).  Again, Charm is the clear loser.
3. As far as average level goes — HC and KH are about 202/203 and Charm is just over 210. A another dubious honor for Charm.
4. And in terms of Ego/Level as a normalized measure of power?  HC is 430, KH is 439 and C is 441.  Here Hardcore is a clear winner.

Taken together, these seem to say:

• It's harder to succeed with Charm as they need to work harder to get the same level of success (ego/level and level distribution).
• It's easier to succeed with Hardcore (ego/level and disproportionate population).
• Too many people are abandoning their starting class in favor of Hardcore (disproportionate population).
• Know-How has faces to half as many favorable match-ups Vs unfavorable match-ups as Hardcore does.

 

Despite the fact that I read many complaints about the bad balancing of CH vs. KH vs. HC (with HC as best since rarity system while CH and KH had powerful Abrael and Samane before), I have problems to follow your logic.

• 50 % of league is HC, 25 % is KH and 25 % is CH
• the Top10 is dominated by CH - 60 %

how does that fit into "CH is the loser" if this minority takes 60 % of Top10 seats?

I might find the conclusion that the "average level" of a KH/ HC is lower than CH gives the hint that these need lower level to proceed beyond S1.

While your ego/level sounds like "you get more ego/level if you do CH" - and ego is (in my eyes most) important...

 

And yes, I remember paper beating stones beating scissors beating paper, but I get your example.

[ZackMacKenzie]

On 1/21/2019 at 8:00 AM, casey said:

I've was always under the impression that "paper" covered "rock" and therefore won

By the way there are some great JAV  videos illustrating this type of contest

You are, of course,  correct.  Both rock and scissors can't beat paper.

Conclusion?  Don't write posts at 2AM.   (I'll edit to fix ASAP.)

On 1/22/2019 at 2:16 PM, windia said:

Despite the fact that I read many complaints about the bad balancing of CH vs. KH vs. HC (with HC as best since rarity system while CH and KH had powerful Abrael and Samane before), I have problems to follow your logic.

• 50 % of league is HC, 25 % is KH and 25 % is CH
• the Top10 is dominated by CH - 60 %

how does that fit into "CH is the loser" if this minority takes 60 % of Top10 seats?

I might find the conclusion that the "average level" of a KH/ HC is lower than CH gives the hint that these need lower level to proceed beyond S1.

While your ego/level sounds like "you get more ego/level if you do CH" - and ego is (in my eyes most) important...

 

And yes, I remember paper beating stones beating scissors beating paper, but I get your example.

For Charm to get more ego/level to be a thing it would mean that the RNG generates more Legendary Charm items.  I don't think it does (at least not for Charm specialists).  Also, for this to be true one would expect that there would be fewer low ego/level Charm players.  There wasn't — the lowest end was pretty evenly distributed between classes.

 

The logic I used for these is as follows.  If all things were equal, one would expect that all three classes would have similar levels of success.

Since that doesn't appear to be true, then that means there has to be another reason why there are Charm players that (on paper) look like they should be stronger and more successful stuck in the same field as KH/HC players that by the numbers appear weaker.

If one class (say Hardcore) is having more success at lower levels and/or lower ego/level, then there is probably something inherent in the class that contributes to that success.

One the other hand, if one class (i.e. Charm) has higher level and/or higher ego/level than the others at the same level of success then there is probably something inherent  in the class that keeps them from achieving more success.  In other words, the relative lack of high level and high ego/level KH & HC players at this level implies that those players have already progressed farther up the ladder.

 

These conclusions only work when the pattern holds over large numbers of players.  If it's only true for some, then other factors like skill, strategy or dumb luck are more likely to be the reason behind the differences.

 

I've dialed back my participation in the Leagues for time reasons, and also to slow down my level progress, which I felt was too fast for optimal fun.  That means I demoted to W3.  I think this is as low as I'll go whether I participate or not — there are so many players with accounts newer than mine that there should be enough of them turning in zeroes to keep me out of the bottom tier.

I haven't yet looked at the class/level/ego breakdowns for this new pool but I will when I get the chance.

[saberbholt]

is nothing new, and had deleted so many historical posts, verias that already in the presentation of pvp 2.0 talk about the advantage provided by hardcore girls for their critical damage and the advantage of that class to get more out of their ego.
Think we're talking about mid-2017 and we already saw these problems in the patch notes.

(By the way, why have they deleted so many posts with a nice search button?)

you would have laughed a lot with those historical posts, for example when they nerved the new epic team so that the new players were more equal with the veterans, getting the opposite effect, that for a new team it was better than the old one, it needed 100 more levels and Veterans had even better statistics because obviously they did not take new equipment until they were improved 100 levels later than their current level (In the end it only served so that the bosses were not so strong in reality, but not for the original idea they announced )

And like that example, there was more than one comic post. Who does not remember the announcement that they wanted to make more important and useful multicolored equipment for pvp?

Edited January 27, 2019 by saberbholt

[Mythos]

2 hours ago, saberbholt said:

is nothing new, and had deleted so many historical posts, verias that already in the presentation of pvp 2.0 talk about the advantage provided by hardcore girls for their critical damage and the advantage of that class to get more out of their ego.
Think we're talking about mid-2017 and we already saw these problems in the patch notes.

Just two corrections:
- HC doesn't benefit from Ego, only from Damage. KH benefits from Ego.
- The first announcement about PVP 2 was on March 2018, so much later than mid-2017.

[saberbholt]

5 hours ago, Mythos said:

Just two corrections:
- HC doesn't benefit from Ego, only from Damage. KH benefits from Ego.
- The first announcement about PVP 2 was on March 2018, so much later than mid-2017.

When I talk about what benefits more from the ego, I mean that HC with HC girls benefits more from the ego than a KH for example with the same girls (be the class that you are you can use the girls you want with their own effects of their class, but your main stat of your class gives you more ego)
And if I just looked at it and it was March 2018 and not mid-2017 as I thought, thank you

[Mythos]

6 hours ago, saberbholt said:

When I talk about what benefits more from the ego, I mean that HC with HC girls benefits more from the ego than a KH for example with the same girls (be the class that you are you can use the girls you want with their own effects of their class, but your main stat of your class gives you more ego)

I don't understand this statement, can you give example?

[Daniele]

8 hours ago, saberbholt said:

When I talk about what benefits more from the ego, I mean that HC with HC girls benefits more from the ego than a KH for example with the same girls (be the class that you are you can use the girls you want with their own effects of their class, but your main stat of your class gives you more ego)
And if I just looked at it and it was March 2018 and not mid-2017 as I thought, thank you

Why should a KH players use HC girls? And besides, HC and KH criticals are more or less equal.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Daniele

[Mythos]

32 minutes ago, Daniele said:

Why should a KH players use HC girls? HC and KH criticals are more or less equal.

Oh, so this is what he meaned! Than as Daniele said...

[Daniele]

4 minutes ago, Mythos said:

Oh, so this is what he meaned! Than as Daniele said...

Well, his English made my eyes bleed, but i think he meant that

[saberbholt]

2 hours ago, Mythos said:

Oh, so this is what he meaned! Than as Daniele said...

 

2 hours ago, Daniele said:

Why should a KH players use HC girls? And besides, HC and KH criticals are more or less equal.

we did not discuss if the level of critics was the same, but the damage caused in HC with a critic if it was similar to the absorption / rise of life of KH throughout a battle (being a 10% recovery of ego life against a multiplied damage of HC if we take into account that the critic in both stop and recovery of life did not inflict damage that turn and when calculating the values of ego were similar in both HC and KH, giving advantage to the increased damage of HC if had monostats that did increase erosion by damage throughout the battle)

and at that time HC had a bonus of 20% more additional damage to know how to do (lately even though it should still be like this, I do not notice that it is being applied) Basically of that mechanics we talked in the first days and it was already seen where the system failed

 

I mean, if HC has 20k's of damage in his stat , in critical hit it could reach {[ 10k's to 20k's x 150% damage ] + 20% additional damage for the class }= 18k's to 36k6 against a 200k's ego KH that would recover 20k's of life and see the imbalance,  a more long combat more easy for HC with the damage base and the class bonus

Edited January 27, 2019 by saberbholt
retouch for make same lvl players (200k's ego in HC is aprox 20k's principal stat

[Daniele]

@saberbholt No, you're a bit confused. There's no 20% additional damage for HC over KH, now the dominance scheme affects only the harmony stat.

If a HC player has 20k attack power his harmony bonus will be 10k (20k x 150% = 30k).
But we must say that HC is the only class that take advantage of orgasms, so if HC triggers harmony + orgasm the crit bonus will be 15k (20k x 150% x 150% = 45k)

[saberbholt]

9 minutes ago, Daniele said:

@saberbholt No, you're a bit confused. There's no 20% additional damage for HC over KH, now the dominance scheme affects only the harmony stat.

If a HC player has 20k attack power his harmony bonus will be 10k (20k x 150% = 30k).
But we must say that HC is the only class that take advantage of orgasms, so if HC triggers harmony + orgasm the crit bonus will be 15k (20k x 150% x 150% = 45k)

maibe, can be confused but in experience, make a very big damage, more than KH recover in time, and thats the cause most players are HC and is broken the Pvp system

MMM noy i read one more time the pach notes and say: "

Simple Classes

There will be a domination scheme which is a simple rock-paper-scissors mechanic, giving a Damage bonus to the dominating class. This will be implimented to give more identity to each class and a bit more depth to the PVP."

No only affects harmony stat, affects damage in general

Edited January 27, 2019 by saberbholt

[Daniele]

The pvp system is broken mainly because of the charm ability, not the KH one.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Daniele

[saberbholt]

8 minutes ago, Daniele said:

The pvp system is broken mainly because of the charm ability, not the KH.

the charm hability is a joke, only make damage to HC for the 20% damage class bonus, but parrity next hit is not a big hability really. The only way for that hability work was, the defense points not use for damage join the defense until they are exhausted but no only the next turn and defense next be normal.

The Pvp system is a big trouble, if that was a rules of combat in Dungeons and Dragons player book, with that inbalance, the writer go out of the company in one month and make a new version of player's book 😛

 

(I feel if I express myself badly, but I assure you that in Spanish it is easier for me to explain it xD)

Edited January 27, 2019 by saberbholt

[Mythos]

23 minutes ago, saberbholt said:

 

No only affects harmony stat, affects damage in general 

That first announcement is outdated: "now dominance scheme affects only the harmony stat" as @Daniele said and the Harmony effects are different.
Better if you read this.

[ScrubNoob]

@saberbholt the 20% bonuses were removed quite a while ago. The initial change did include them, which made charm quite a pain for HC players at the time. It also did so for the other classes as well when facing what they were weak against. That was back when charm was essentially king since the majority of 5* and best stats for them belonged to charm. Once charm gets their 2nd legendary 5* the girls a least will balanced, but it still stands that the ability for charm needs some improvement. The player classes effect the harmony only now, which effects the chance that you and your opponent will use an ability.

Edited January 27, 2019 by ScrubNoob
typo

[saberbholt]

33 minutes ago, ScrubNoob said:

@saberbholt the 20% bonuses were removed quite a while ago. The initial change did include them, which made charm quite a pain for HC players at the time. It also did so for the other classes as well when facing what they were weak against. That was back when charm was essentially king since the majority of 5* and best stats for them belonged to charm. Once charm gets their 2nd legendary 5* the girls a least will balanced, but it still stands that the ability for charm needs some improvement. The player classes effect the harmony only now, which effects the chance that you and your opponent will use an ability.

I already said that lately it did not work or I did not notice that class damage bonus , nor did I find out when they took it away.
Anyway, once were the legendary 5 stars, the problem was that: KH does not recover enough life and charm does not accumulate the defense left after the damage of that turn, so the critical damage of HC gives you an advantage.

I can be weird, but like the system of: only one class, attack stat, critical (and or aste) and defense. All the others inventions are ...... <----- (can put any despective word here),. And if use aste with keep, need apply in attack and defense rules, some critical

 

how to use critical defense: you calculate the maximum stop value, subtract the impact and the value that is returned as damage.

How to apply aste to defense: it is a multiplier as in damage (do not increase the number of attacks because you can not match it to defense, use it as a fixed multiplier value) damage x% aste vs defense x% aste.

Simple rules that allow improving the 4 stats by personalizing the character. And the great golden rule to more defense you get more life, the more attack you get the more critical.

You can not have more life with attack than defense is ridiculous and it is a kind of coherent and logical rules.

Edited January 27, 2019 by saberbholt

[Daniele]

15 minutes ago, saberbholt said:

I already said that lately it did not work or I did not notice that class damage bonus , nor did I find out when they took it away.

Lately? It's been since april 2018 that they changed the dominance scheme 🤣
https://forum.hentaiheroes.com/index.php?/topic/4592-patch-notes-250418/&amp;tab=comments#comment-65858

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by Daniele

[saberbholt]

3 minutes ago, Daniele said:

Lately? It's been since april 2018 that they changed the dominance scheme 🤣
https://forum.hentaiheroes.com/index.php?/topic/4592-patch-notes-250418/&amp;tab=comments#comment-65858

 

jajaja there you can realize the case that I do what they develop, sincerely, it was and is an illogical and bad system, so neither case I do with the pvp but do the 4 bouts without obsessing

[Daniele]

1 hour ago, saberbholt said:

Anyway, once were the legendary 5 stars, the problem was that: KH does not recover enough life and charm does not accumulate the defense left after the damage of that turn, so the critical damage of HC gives you an advantage.

By the way, if we want to split hairs, usually the KH specialty bonus is even slightly higher than the HC one, at least in normal conditions (no orgasm and no beta in battle). If i use my stats, the KH one would heal me for 21338 ego, whereas the HC one would give me 20569 more damage. But as i said, my hypothetical wild burst bonus would be higher with orgasm (30853) or beta in battle (22840).
So again, HC and KH crits are more or less equal, they should just find a way to give the orgasm benefit to KH. For example, if you trigger the orgasm and the KH harmony at the same time, it heals you 15% of your total ego (with my stats +32007).
But the real problem in this system remains that pathetic charm ability, that gives me only a bonus of 6958 (on average), 3 fu**ing times worse than the other two.

[Observer_X]

All this makes me think that someone should rewrite the FAQ about battles and team-forming with more clear explanations, some easy examples and maybe some clearly explained insights (probably about how to best build your team based on your specialty, the best use for drugs, and the like), all organized in sections, all in one place, and possibly dev-verified. No offense to anyone, guys, but anytime I find myself in front of a sequence of posts like this, I get an headache lightspeed. The fact that we lost all our moderators in the English forum is a heavy loss, and in the optic that this way we have no more interface with the devs on points like this one, makes that even heavier. Excuse me if I got off-topic.