New Feature: The Labyrinth - Started December 6th 2023 at live

[EpicBacon]

9 minutes ago, Horsting said:

Broken relics and broken class stats have been recognised earlier, when it was on test server, as well as that the damage is generally doubled, i.e. that 1 AP gives ~2 damage (+bonuses) and 1 defence reduces ~2 damage. And indeed when they pushed the first "balance" change to the test server, I suggested to fix bugs instead, and Rosso said on Discord that he reads the forum thread and that it is an "interesting discussion" there. However, now things are finally moving. Let's just hope/try to push it so that really everything is fixed, not just this minor list in Luna's post.

yeah, I think the protective bubble was really early, on, this link was the first reference to the damage formula that I could find in the post, meaning the double damage was known and reported on this forum atleast as early as dec9, but only now did they realize that its double. I guess this also means that "Curse" is actually not broken, just everything else is

In my runs going forward, I'll try to grab as many critical increase relics as I can, use the harmony formula, and see if I can see any increased critical rate.

Edited February 26 by EpicBacon

[Horsting]

11 minutes ago, EpicBacon said:

I guess this also means that "Curse" is actually not broken, just everything else is

Yeah right, as it changes this factor to 1.x, higher than 1 but lower than 2. EDIT: Or errm wait, how was "Curse" exactly broken again? I tend to loose the overview 😄.

Edited February 26 by Horsting

[EpicBacon]

4 minutes ago, Horsting said:

Yeah right, as it changes this factor to 1.x, higher than 1 but lower than 2. EDIT: Or errm wait, how was "Curse" exactly broken again? I tend to loose the overview 😄.

Curse removes the x2 damage after subtracting defence. And then correctly adds the extra damage from any source.
If the 2x damage is not supposed to be there, then the formula should be working correctly.

@madahmed was the one who figured out curse, and I was later able to confirm his findings.

 

[Der DinX]

And than I think there was this tiny little issue with it hitting any girl it wants, instead of only the opponent, wasn't it? 🤔

Or is it just because there is so much damage, that is has to go somewhere, and sometimes you just get in the way? 😵

Edited February 26 by Der DinX

[EpicBacon]

5 minutes ago, Der DinX said:

And than I think there was this tiny little issue with it hitting any girl it wants, instead of only the opponent, wasn't it? 🤔

Or is it just because there is so much damage, that is has to go somewhere, and sometimes you just get in the way? 😵

Curse only targets opponents; In my testing, I had 17 instances of using berserk in 1 labyrinth run, and in all of the battles, they allways hit the opponent. It would actually be beneficial IF it could hit both, as then you could get some really strong tanks, taking half damage

The relic you are thinking of is the "protection assist" that shields a girl for a % of her total ego before battle starts, that one is supposedly fixed on test now, and should only protect your team.

[Horsting]

Here another table to show the actual crit bonus (and penalty for the opponent) of harmony relics:

8% respectively 16% harmony bonus from the legendary (violet) global respectively per-line and per-girl harmony relics.

The global one to compare with +5% crit bonus of the global crit bonus relic: 5% vs a little above 0.5%. It depends a little, but not much, on the original harmony ratio between the girls. Since it reduces the opponent's crit chance as well, if you give this the same value, one can say that the crit chance relic is roughly 5 times as beneficial as the harmony relic.

The per-line (midline) harmony relic is slightly better, since it affects 3 of 5 DDs, but has doubled bonus. On the other hand, there is the damage for backline relic, and considering that the tanks do a little damage as well, hat is probably negligible.

The per-girl harmony relic is of course pure crap. Same bonus as midline relic, but for a single girl only, which can be also a tank and/or even tired (before this is changed).

Hence select these only if the alternatives either harm you (protective bubble, curse) or do nothing (crit damage, protection assist in average, 2nd finish move, 2nd defeat medication, relics for tired girls).

This information is all based on the assumption that the harmony and crit chance relics do work as intended. Testing whether a crit chance bonus is applied or not is pretty difficult, as it requires a large amount of samples.

4 hours ago, EpicBacon said:

In my runs going forward, I'll try to grab as many critical increase relics as I can, use the harmony formula, and see if I can see any increased critical rate.

Awesome 😍.

________

And a word about the crit chance relics, compared to damage bonus relics:

• Both give the same percentage, and one could say that 1 crit, which doubles the damage, in 5% of cases, means 5% more damage, which equals 5% damage relic. But it is not exactly like that.
• Damage relics do not increase the damage, but the attack points. And 5% more AP, if the defender defence is half of the attacker AP, means 10% more damage:
  • 100 AP - 50 defence = 50 damage
  • 100*1.05 AP = 105 AP and 105 AP - 50 defence = 55 damage, which is 10% more than 50.
  • In other words, actual damage bonuses increase the defender's defence as well (mathematically), while AP bonuses do not do that. And all "damage" relics are actually AP relics.
• Furthermore, crits mean more overhead damage: The chance the more damage is done than required to make a girl tired is significantly higher with crits, hence parts of the damage bonus is effectively lost.
• And I personally prefer a lower but assured bonus, rather than a larger bonus which happens only with a certain chance.
• If the crit damage relics would work, they would in combination raise the benefit of crit chance relics. But currently they do not work, and even if, they would hardly weight out the large difference between crit chance and AP relics. Also the crit damage relics themselves are pretty weak, even if they did work, even if you have a high crit chance. So you need to combine weak relics to make other weaker relics a little better. Well, if you can avoid it, avoid it 😃.

Edited February 26 by Horsting

[jelom]

After thoroughly (and I mean it, I spent a demential amount of time doing runs every two hours) testing the normal difficulty during the past week, I have polished my strategy to complete it with only the initial 140 girls. I didn't need to use a revujenation stone once.

Relic selection priority:

1. Defeat medication (all rarities) has always priority over any other.
2. Rejuvenation legendary and mythic, or at least epic.
3. Finish move. leg and mythic if possible, but all other rarities too (now it stacks).
4. All girls defense
5. All girls attack
6. All girls Critical chance %
7. Vigorous motivation (attack for girls with over 50% ego)
8. Front defense
9. All girls ego
10. All girls Critical damage %
11. Back attack
12. Duck. If it is for your healing girl, or one strong KH girl, if you add two and get over 60% that girl will help you a lot.
Try to avoid: Harmony %, or one girl relic (attack, defense, ego, harmony or critical damage)
Don't choose (could change in the future): Protective Bubble, Curse, ...

Team management:

- For weak opponents that you are sure to win (when they are below your team strength or if buffed with boosters a bit over your strength) put int the back line a 5GS recovery girl, and some weakened girls in the back and middle line, and two full strength tanks in the front line. This way you recover girls to fight against strong foes, especially if you have medication.
- for hard opponents in the 3rd and 4th floor, you many times have to sacrifice one full team. My usual team selection is 2-3 KH (back), 2-3 CH (middle) and 2-3 HC (front). In the second attack use the weak opponents strategy explained before if you see a clear victory.
-Bosses: you can usually win directly the 1st boss, you lose one team against the 2nd boss, 2-3 teams against the 3rd boss and 4-5 teams against the 4th boss. If you have good relics you can lose one less team, and if you don't (especially without medication) you can lose 1-2 more teams, so you have to reserve enough girls and heal them if possible.

Opponent selection:

- As a general rule try to follow the path of least resistance, easier opponents, all bags and some wings in latter floors.
- 1st floor: try to go for strong ones if you are seasoned and want more fists and kisses, if not just follow the path of easy ones.
- 2nd floor: you can choose strong if you have medication and rejuvenation/finish already, if not, choose easy route avoiding hard enemies if possible.
- 3rd floor: easy route, including all wings if you are short in girls.
- 4th floor: easy route, including all wings if you are short in girls.

[430i]

18 minutes ago, jelom said:

initial 140 girls

Thanks for the write-up! Do we get more girls in the new difficulties?

[EpicBacon]

19 minutes ago, jelom said:

10. All girls Critical damage %

Currently has no effect, this has been forwarded to KK, and is supposedly going to be looked into tomorrow

[Tom208]

il y a 44 minutes, 430i a dit :

Thanks for the write-up! Do we get more girls in the new difficulties?

You need 140 girls for normal mode and 280 girls for hard mode.

The shop is the same for every difficulty.

[430i]

13 minutes ago, Tom208 said:

You need 140 girls for normal mode and 280 girls for hard mode.

Interesting, thanks for the info! And the resurrection stone revives all right? Not only 70?

Shouldnt hard mode be possible with 560 girls? With the latest payout bump for hard mode you essentially get a resurrection stone for free.

[Tom208]

il y a 5 minutes, 430i a dit :

And the resurrection stone revives all right? Not only 70?

Yes, all the girls are revived by the stone.

 

il y a 9 minutes, 430i a dit :

Shouldnt hard mode be possible with 560 girls? With the latest payout bump for hard mode you essentially get a resurrection stone for free.

Why 560 girls? Doubled the number of girls compared to normal mode is not enough for you?
Knowing Rosso tells that hard mode shouldn't be finished without using any resurrection stone, I'm not sure hard mode is worth it.

[430i]

27 minutes ago, Tom208 said:

Why 560 girls? Doubled the number of girls compared to normal mode is not enough for you?

Well, I am not on the test server, so I havent tried it, but from what jelom is writing hard mode seems impossible. However I assume one resurrection stone will be enough to finish it, which should still result in a net win.

[Horsting]

2 hours ago, jelom said:

1. Defeat medication (all rarities) has always priority over any other.
2. Rejuvenation legendary and mythic, or at least epic.
3. Finish move. leg and mythic if possible, but all other rarities too (now it stacks).
4. All girls defense
5. All girls attack
6. All girls Critical chance %
7. Vigorous motivation (attack for girls with over 50% ego)
8. Front defense
9. All girls ego
10. All girls Critical damage %
11. Back attack
12. Duck. If it is for your healing girl, or one strong KH girl, if you add two and get over 60% that girl will help you a lot.

• Finish move is a little weaker than attack. +5% attack roughly means +10% damage, while the equal rarity finish move (legendary) reduces the damage required to defeat a girl by 8%, which equals roughly 8.7% damage increase. But it gets more when it stacks, so might become equal to attack when you are lucky to get more of them.
• Defence bonus is roughly half as effective as attack bonus, since the defence values are much lower than attack values, while in absolute numbers, both have the same effect (of course in the other direction). I mean if the higher defence allows your girls to stay at moreless same ego across many battles, in combination with defeat medication and rejuvenation, it can still be better. But if tanks are dying anyway, then higher attack should make them survive longer (indirectly, as opponents fall faster) than defence.
• Vigorous motivation is BY FAR the best offensive relics of them all, better than attack, crit chance and finish move. Not only because it gives higher attack bonus to your DD than impactful, but also since its bonus stacks every round, and even raises with the GS4 skill. Or has this been "fixed" on test server, so that it is a static bonus only? At live server, I actually prefer this over rejuvenation, basically over everything else, as long as I have 1 defeat medication already.
• Duck for a tank is pretty strong, same as this vampire life steal relic. It makes my tanks (CH girls) survive much longer, often forever (including 3rd stage boss). I had 2 mythic duck relics on the same frontline girl once = 100% dodge chance, hence not a single hit on that girl was possible => GG 😄. However, on higher difficulties, tanks may die quicker despite these relics, and then the bonus is gone. Still it means that you probably lost only 1 tank while you otherwise would have lost 2 or 3 tanks in the same amount of battles. Or your team survives a red or boss, while otherwise it would have died, hence more girls remain for remaining battles. So it always has its value, even after it is gone.

45 minutes ago, 430i said:

Well, I am not on the test server, so I havent tried it, but from what jelom is writing hard mode seems impossible. However I assume one resurrection stone will be enough to finish it, which should still result in a net win.

That's actually a good point: If hard difficulty gives as many more coins as needed to buy at least 1 rejuvenation stone, it still makes sense. I have 12 stones from the various free gifts and even tracks, so will just try hard one time, and see how many stones I need. I just feat that I have way to few girls on level 750 to have a benefit from hard difficulty. Sadly the opponents scale with hero level, not with your harem level, or both.

Edited February 27 by Horsting

[jelom]

7 hours ago, 430i said:

Shouldnt hard mode be possible with 560 girls?

This week I am doing tests with hard mode (280 girls), and my preliminary assesment is that difficulty is lower (*) than a week ago when it was released (that or I have improved my strategy enough to pass it without problems ... or that I got Defeat Medication in the first or second floor this time  ) and I could finish with a safe amount of girls left.

(*) Not in terms of opponent strength, that is the same as before.

Edited February 27 by jelom

[EpicBacon]

8 hours ago, Horsting said:

That's actually a good point: If hard difficulty gives as many more coins as needed to buy at least 1 rejuvenation stone, it still makes sense. I have 12 stones from the various free gifts and even tracks, so will just try hard one time, and see how many stones I need. I just feat that I have way to few girls on level 750 to have a benefit from hard difficulty. Sadly the opponents scale with hero level, not with your harem level, or both.

Since the max coins you can get from easy is 2184 (base, not considering cards)
And the hard mode is supposed to give 120% extra coins, then 2184*1.2 = 2620.
The number is actually 2620.8, but just going to use 2620 here, as I don't know how coins are rounded.

So if we want to get a profit doing hard mode, we need to spend less then 2620 coins.
Each refill tokens costs 850 coins in the labyrinth shop.

0 tokens used - 2620 coins profit
1 tokens used - 1770 coins profit
2 tokens used - 920 coins profit
3 tokens used -   70 coins profit

Anything past 3 tokens will be a net loss, and one could say the 3 token run would not be worth the time investment.

The reason that I am using the 120% number is that you'll be getting the base amount for doing easy mode either way, I am only looking at the additional coins for hard mode.

There is actually an argument here that if your cannot complete the first three floors on hard mode, that is if they are harder then on easy, then you'll be getting a net loss just by choosing hard over easy.

Edited February 27 by EpicBacon

[mdnoria]

forget what I said, I misread and you only considered the extra coins for your calculus.

Edited February 27 by mdnoria
misread

[bolitho76]

1 hour ago, EpicBacon said:

Since the max coins you can get from easy is 2184 (base, not considering cards)
And the hard mode is supposed to give 120% extra coins, then 2184*1.2 = 2620.
The number is actually 2620.8, but just going to use 2620 here, as I don't know how coins are rounded.

So if we want to get a profit doing hard mode, we need to spend less then 2620 coins.
Each refill tokens costs 850 coins in the labyrinth shop.

0 tokens used - 2620 coins profit
1 tokens used - 1770 coins profit
2 tokens used - 920 coins profit
3 tokens used -   70 coins profit

If you only compare hard and easy mode your calculation is correct, but you have to include the normal mode too in my eyes.
After normal mode give you aditional 1092 coins and you can run the normal mode without using a heartstone (at least I can do this mostly at test and I have to use there some 3* girls and some not maxed 5* girls so I expect better results at main with my way bigger amount of 5*/6* Girls) so you should calculate the profit not from the 2184 coins, you should use the 3276 coins from the normal mode - so:

0 tokens used - 1528 coins profit

1 tokens used -   688 coins profit

2 tokens used -  152 coins lost

[hihi1237823]

15 hours ago, jelom said:

After thoroughly (and I mean it, I spent a demential amount of time doing runs every two hours) testing the normal difficulty during the past week, I have polished my strategy to complete it with only the initial 140 girls. I didn't need to use a revujenation stone once.

 

What the grade and level of the 140 girls?

All mystics and L5 max level 750 with max gear full skill upgrade?

[EpicBacon]

2 hours ago, bolitho76 said:

If you only compare hard and easy mode your calculation is correct, but you have to include the normal mode too in my eyes.
After normal mode give you aditional 1092 coins and you can run the normal mode without using a heartstone (at least I can do this mostly at test and I have to use there some 3* girls and some not maxed 5* girls so I expect better results at main with my way bigger amount of 5*/6* Girls) so you should calculate the profit not from the 2184 coins, you should use the 3276 coins from the normal mode - so:

0 tokens used - 1528 coins profit

1 tokens used -   688 coins profit

2 tokens used -  152 coins lost

that is a good point, I have no experience with the hard or normal mode, as I don't have any test server account, and even If i created one, there would be a substantional amount of time before I would be able to do any meaningful labyrinth testing.
That is why I used easy mode, as it is what I am familiar with, and the amount of coins on hard mode.

The main question would be how much harder is hard compared to normal, as in how earlier in the run would one need to use the first token to proceed with the run. Now since the increase from easy to normal is 1092 coins, one could still use one token on normal mode and be in profit by 242 coins.

There would probably also be a middleground, that if one are stronger then normal mode, but not powerful enough to complete hard, one could make it to the later floors and hope for a good floor layout where one could grab as many coins before running out of girls, and then just cut the losses.

[bolitho76]

My experience with the normal mode at test is mostly from the time before they fixed some of the relics (and because of the 2h cycle at test at the moment I had a intense Labyrinth time from 23rd to 25th to get Golden Lupa with the aditional comabtivity from labyrinth 😉 )

I did ca. 40 runs and had to use 14 heartstones, but 10 of them between 23rd to 25th because I wanted to get as much as possible coins and combativty from theese runs - so 18 runs in theese two days with 10 heartstones, the other 20+ runs with 4 heartstones.

I have 126 5* Girls maxed at test - including starter, common, rare and Legendary Gilrs, no Mythic or Epic. Most of the Common, all of the rare are fully skilled.

[jelom]

9 hours ago, hihi1237823 said:

What the grade and level of the 140 girls?

All mystics and L5 max level 750 with max gear full skill upgrade?

At test I have around 100 girls at level 750, and the rest to complete the 140 for normal mode are over 650 (so the experience in labyrinth is very similar to the main server).

And of course I have only gear and bulbs for a handful.

After doing a few more hard runs, I can complete my previous info about the strategy, it is usable for all difficulty modes, because the opponents in each floor in all modes are of similar strength, if you do easy mode just the 4th and 5th floor info don't apply. (changes and additions in red)

Relic selection priority:

1. Defeat medication (all rarities) has always priority over any other.
2. Rejuvenation legendary and mythic, or at least epic.
3. Finish move. leg and mythic if possible, but all other rarities too (now it stacks).
4. Vigorous motivation (attack for girls with over 50% ego) As per @Horsting suggestion.
5. All girls defense
6. All girls attack
7. All girls Critical chance %
8. Front defense
9. All girls ego
11. Back attack
12. Duck. If it is for your healing girl, or one strong KH girl, if you add two and get over 60% that girl will help you a lot.
Try to avoid: Harmony %, or one girl relic (attack, defense, ego, harmony or critical damage), All girls Critical damage %
Don't choose (could change in the future): Protective Bubble, Curse,  ...

Team management:

- For weak opponents that you are sure to win (when they are below your team strength or if buffed with boosters a bit over your strength) put int the back line a 5GS recovery girl, and some weakened girls in the back and middle line, and two full strength tanks in the front line. This way you recover girls to fight against strong foes, especially if you have medication.
- for hard opponents in the 3rd and 4th floor, you many times have to sacrifice one full team, and in the 5th floor up to two teams. My usual team selection is 2-3 KH (back), 2-3 CH (middle) and 2-3 HC (front). In the second attack use the weak opponents strategy explained before if you see a clear victory.
-Bosses: you can usually win directly the 1st boss, you lose one team against the 2nd boss, 2-3 teams against the 3rd boss and 4-5 teams against the 4th boss and 7-9 teams against the 5th boss. If you have good relics you can lose one less team, and if you don't (especially without medication) you can lose 1-2 more teams, so you have to reserve enough girls and heal them before if possible.

Opponent selection:

- As a general rule try to follow the path of least resistance, easier opponents, all bags and some wings in latter floors.
- 1st floor: try to go for strong ones if you are seasoned and want more fists and kisses, if not just follow the path of easy ones.
- 2nd floor: you can choose strong if you have medication and rejuvenation/finish already, if not, choose easy route avoiding hard enemies if possible.
- 3rd floor: easy route, including all wings if you are short in girls.
- 4th floor: easy route, including all wings if you are short in girls.
- 5th floor: easy route, including all wings if you are short in girls.

[Der DinX]

Sometimes it is just too easy which relic to pic.

Only thing I would like to know, from which colour do I have girls anyway?

Edited February 28 by Der DinX

[Horsting]

3 hours ago, jelom said:

for hard opponents in the 3rd and 4th floor, you many times have to sacrifice one full team, and in the 5th floor up to two teams. My usual team selection is 2-3 KH (back), 2-3 CH (middle) and 2-3 HC (front).

So you use the HC girls as fodder, supposed to get tired, and the CH girls as actual tanks behind them? I wonder whether it works better to use 5 KH and 2 HC as fodder, as the additional DDs will bring down opponent girls faster, and that way (hopefully) survive.

Btw, on live server, I had a run with much vigorous motivation:

Two more rare ones. The damage of my team was so high, that no HC or CH girl could ever use her GS5 in the whole run. Only KH girls sometimes were able to use their skill, but at the very end where it didn't make much difference anymore. Sadly I have no skilled submissive girl for the healing skill, which would still been a little helpful. I'll need to skill one when difficulties com to live server.

Means, depending on relics you get, one might want to ignore skills (aside of submissive KH against strong enemies) and just go for max damage (and speed) among your DDs to minimise damage on the tanks.

[bolitho76]