New Feature: The Labyrinth - Started December 6th 2023 at live

[Horsting]

And indeed, she did not take a single hit since I got the second relic. No need for a second tank 😄. This means that they stack additive: 50% + 50% = 100%. For such kind of relics, to not allow reaching 100%/0%, I would suggest such stacking:

hitChance = (1 - baseDodgeChance) * (1 - relic1DodgeChance) * (1 - relic2DodgeChance)

Not sure what the base dodge chance is, but e.g. in case it is 5% against the last boss, the result here would be:

hitChance = (1 - 0.05) * (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.5) = 0.95*0.5*0.5 = 23.75%

which is very good already. So basically I suggest to apply the dodge chance on the remaining hit chance, not as absolute value. There are other examples where such kind of stacking makes sense, to avoid singularities.

But I like transparency as well, and the above formula is a little different to put into 1 sentence 🤔.

[EpicBacon]

32 minutes ago, Horsting said:

And indeed, she did not take a single hit since I got the second relic. No need for a second tank 😄. This means that they stack additive: 50% + 50% = 100%. For such kind of relics, to not allow reaching 100%/0%, I would suggest such stacking:

hitChance = (1 - baseDodgeChance) * (1 - relic1DodgeChance) * (1 - relic2DodgeChance)

Not sure what the base dodge chance is, but e.g. in case it is 5% against the last boss, the result here would be:

hitChance = (1 - 0.05) * (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.5) = 0.95*0.5*0.5 = 23.75%

which is very good already. So basically I suggest to apply the dodge chance on the remaining hit chance, not as absolute value. There are other examples where such kind of stacking makes sense, to avoid singularities.

But I like transparency as well, and the above formula is a little different to put into 1 sentence 🤔.

Well, If they make the dodge too small, then it will devalue the relics even more, Like I usually don't pick up 40% even, as the girl is likely to die either way, but yeah, getting it to 100% is too much.
I think 50-70% with better defence, healing and damage mitigation would not be too bad

[bohammettuz]

35 minutes ago, Horsting said:

But I like transparency as well, and the above formula is a little different to put into 1 sentence 🤔.

"It stacks multiplicatively."

May require a little thought on the part of the reader though.

[EpicBacon]

Did another Harmony/speed test today. But first I want to mention a small interaction with "Defeat Medication" I noticed. The relic description is as follows; After defeating an opponent girl restores X % of max ego (cannot go over the max) One of my girls defeated a girl with her mana skill, but she did not get any ego from the kill. I assume the game treats each girl as no longer "active" when skills are being used.

For Harmony testing, I was able to put together a team with the exact speed/harmony, and no matter what order I put the girls in, the battle order was allways the same, starting in the middle, moving up then circling right to left. having a full team like this makes it easy to check if harmony has any effect, as I am only comparing my girls, and do not care about the opponent girls at all.

This is my control team, and I've included all the stats for each girl for comparison.

After some battles I was able to obtain my first harmony relic, This was a "Harmony in the middle" relic, increasing the harmony for all midline girls with 8%

Here are my team with the harmony relic, nothing has changed, Taria the champion (5) in the mid bottom slot should get the harmony increase, and since all the girls have the exact same base speed/harmony, Taria should get battle priority over Radka (3) and Bunna (4), but she does not. I did test this in battle too, they are following the battle order, it's not just a visual bug.


On floor 2 I was able to grab myself a "Sweet harmony" relic, the one in question increases Shtupra's harmony with 16% Since she was the girl in slot 1, I moved her to the 7th and last slot. The reason is simple, if I left her where she is, she would go first by default. Moving her to the 7th slot, with all her harmony increase, should give her priority, as she has a much bigger harmony increase then those in the midline. But as expected, she did follow the battleorder, and acted as the 7th girl.

Does this mean that harmony does not do anything? No, It could do things other then speed, like critical chance, thats how critical chance works in stuff outside the labyrinth, so that would make sense to me. What these tests I've done over two different runs tells me is that I see no correlation between Increase harmony relics and speed. And I will stop picking these up over other relics that I know does something. I'd rather take a common 3% defence that I know works, over a Legendary 16% to something that might or might not work.

And in case someone is wondering, No I did not run this team the entire run, I used this team against blue, green and yellow fights, and swapped out better girls to deal with red fights, leaving 2 girls from this team in the bacline for the chance of getting target specific harmony relics.

Edited December 24, 2023 by EpicBacon
grammar

[madahmed]

In today's run , I had got nothing special except the final boss of floor 3 where my opponent Lovebot Norou used her skill " Big dick Protector" lol. which works like physical and submissive shield skill. It does protect the girl and three other teammates for a certain % ego.

This skill can be interesting in future labyrinth . if someone can upgrade sensual gils to skill 5.

@EpicBacon last time , you were wondering how could your mages dodge so much attacks from low level opponent?

the answer is pretty easy : if your defence is greater than your opponent attack , you will dodge the attack thats why mages are very powerful against the first opponents because of their high defence.

[EpicBacon]

4 minutes ago, madahmed said:

the answer is pretty easy : if your defence is greater than your opponent attack , you will dodge the attack thats why mages are very powerful against the first opponents because of their high defence.

That makes a lot of sense, embarrassingly much that I should have have realized that.
And that is why I thought defence adds to dodge rate, instead its just a threshold to get over to be ahead in defence.
And why defence cannot keep up with the increasing attack from the opponent.
Another problem with defence is that the opponent also gets increased crit rate, so even if your defence is okay, you can easily be critted several times in a row, dropping your girl regardless of defence.

Thank you, enlightening

[bigkittynutz]

I'm really liking the labyrinth. I wish it was longer than only 3 rounds or we continued until we exhausted all of our girls or something.

[Horsting]

21 hours ago, bohammettuz said:

"It stacks multiplicatively."

May require a little thought on the part of the reader though.

Yeah. With this alone one could derive: 50%*50%=25% dodge chance, hmm 😄. It could be:
"Reduce the chance to get hit by an opponent attack by X%. Stacks multiplicatively."
So the "1-X" is part of the sentence.

@EpicBacon

Thanks for testing harmony effect on speed. Since HC/CH/KH do not provide what they are supposed to, I do not wonder that harmony does not either. So another set of no-op relics one must avoid 😒.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Horsting

[EpicBacon]

4 hours ago, Horsting said:

@EpicBacon

Thanks for testing harmony effect on speed. Since HC/CH/KH do not provide what they are supposed to, I do not wonder that harmony does not either. So another set of no-op relics one must avoid 😒.

Maybe it adds to mythic pachinco drop rate 😜

[DvDivXXX]

On 12/23/2023 at 6:22 PM, OmerB said:

I don't know why you're referring to something that might be possible in the game as an "abuse" or "cheating".

If it's possible in-game, I'm assuming that the developers intended that it's how it should work.

Then you didn't understand what I was talking about, and/or you don't know enough about game balance, bug exploits and cheating by abusing features to see where I'm coming from. That's okay, you don't need to.

The entire point of the discussion in the post you've quoted was from the perspective of the devs setting rules and mechanics that would not allow abuse or exploits. That's very a routine and also crucial consideration for anything any dev do or change in a game.

Yes, if the devs were unfortunate or oblivious enough to release or implement something that allows players to farm infinite rewards by using a basic trick that's possible in the game, it would be possible in the game. But NO, it would not be "allowed". We've had many cases of things that happened to be possible to do in the game and that were clearly problematic, not allowed (because simply not intended to be used or abused that way) and were promptly fixed. And openly referred to as abuse or exploits by the devs and, in the most egregious cases, by most of the community as well. And players who abused the thing that was technically possible to do in the game but that was clearly not meant to be possible to do were often punished accordingly, even permanently banned in the most extreme cases. Not just in Kinkoid games, but in many other video games out large.

Beyond that, it's just semantics. I'm not into that. Cheers.

[DvDivXXX]

On 12/23/2023 at 3:37 PM, DuDeLoK said:

are u guys sure that shop refreshes twice per day? because for me it only once per day but not at cutoff time... also mb it matters to go in shop right after it refreshed so refresh timer starts going again

On 12/23/2023 at 4:20 PM, EpicBacon said:

It used to be twice, but lately I am not so sure

On 12/23/2023 at 4:20 PM, EpicBacon said:

Edit: When I checked the laby store at 1:13 AM Gmt+1 on the 24ththe store had reset.
Edit2: When checking the laby store at 7:06 PM Gmt+1 on the 24th, the store had reset again

More on this. So, Saturday morning, I had what I've posted earlier on:

Later on Saturday (or early Sunday morning depending where you are), around midnight CET, it changed:

Then it stayed the same into Sunday morning and until I've checked again shortly after reset at 13:00 CET:

Next change I saw was after reset time on the next day (Monday) around 13:00 CET:

And now it changed shortly after reset today (Tuesday) as well, around 13:00 CET:

Hard to see the full pattern, but it does seem like it changes at least once a day around or shortly after reset time (13:00 CET). But it can also change (or not) roughly halfway between two resets (0:00 CET).

I'll keep taking screenshots to try and figure it out better, because from memory alone if the second-slot girl doesn't change, I just can't be sure it has changed.

[EpicBacon]

So today's run was apparently going to be a double attack run. The problem with this relic is that the chance for it to trigger is really low. This makes this relic frustrating to try to get data for, as even with 4 relics (2 affecting the same girl), I could only see 3 instances of "double attack" triggering. 2 of these attacks were against girls who died in the first attack, giving me even less data to work with.

Lets start with damage first, Sake got the skill to trigger against a girl that survived the first attack, the second hit displayed damage, but the girl took no additional damage, I suspect it works somewhat like the Red level 5 skill, Burnout, who is supposed to give a damage over time effect on 2 random girls, but does not seem to do damage at all. I've been hit by this skill several times by ai opponent, and even tho it pops up with damage numbers, none of my girls have been damaged by this. This is merely speculation tho, I have no idea if it works.

Here comes to more interesting part tho, all my girls got extra mana from the second attack. Neferkitty was able to cast her level 5 skill one turn before Sake got her healing off, and there is no way she would be able to do that without extra mana gain, as Sake is my quickest girl, and always gets the first turn. The 2nd time the skill triggered I was able to visually verify that Alluza gained more mana too, even tho she was not able to damage the girl for the additional attack.

I am not sure why I did not see the additional mana the first time I tested these relics, The only reasonable explanation I can see is that the battle ended right after the attack was done, or I was just not paying enough attention. It was early after the labyrinth release, maybe I wasnt sure about how much mana was regained each turn. Its not an excuse, I simply have no good explanation.

In conclusion;
I was not able to see additional damage by the 2nd attack, but there was mana gain, even if the girl is dead.
The attack still goes off, and damage is displayed, even if the target is knocked out. It would seem mana regain is tied to the attack action, and not hitting or damage, this actually does make sense, since the opponents do gain mana even if my girls dodges their attacks.

As for damage, who knows?, it could be that the damage from the second hit is added to the first hit, not sure why they would do it like that, especially since the damage numbers are present from the second hit. It could simply not work, or it could be like the burnout skill I mentioned earlier in the post. I don't know. This is a relic that needs more testing. 

Getting two attacks off in one turn is really powerful (if the relic works as intended), not only for the damage, but also the mana, but with such a low chance of triggering I don't think its worth it. I would categorize this relic as a "win more" relic. The effect is strong, but far too low chance for it to be reliable, I might consider picking this up if it was 20-25% chance.

I am going to keep picking up more of these in my runs, for testing purposes, but for normal runs, I think literally any other (working) relic is better.

Edited December 26, 2023 by EpicBacon
grammar

[Marc121212]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:05 AM, DvDivXXX said:

I'll keep taking screenshots to try and figure it out better, because from memory alone if the second-slot girl doesn't change, I just can't be sure it has changed.

For me it's change on same day, appears Rachael, the League girl that i gonna get tomorrow (81 shards), and for curiosity even Travel Gwenaelle (Epic 5* stars) appeared, with 57 shards).

EDIT: Getting the League girl today (28 december), the girl change for the another "League" girl (have 56 shards):

Edited December 28, 2023 by Marc121212
Update info

[Tom208]

About the market refresh, I wonder if it's not the same system than the SM market : refresh 12 hours after you visited the market the first time?

For now, it's just a feeling that I have to verify.

[OmerB]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:32 PM, DvDivXXX said:

Then you didn't understand what I was talking about, and/or you don't know enough about game balance, bug exploits and cheating by abusing features to see where I'm coming from. That's okay, you don't need to.

The entire point of the discussion in the post you've quoted was from the perspective of the devs setting rules and mechanics that would not allow abuse or exploits. That's very a routine and also crucial consideration for anything any dev do or change in a game.

Yes, if the devs were unfortunate or oblivious enough to release or implement something that allows players to farm infinite rewards by using a basic trick that's possible in the game, it would be possible in the game. But NO, it would not be "allowed". We've had many cases of things that happened to be possible to do in the game and that were clearly problematic, not allowed (because simply not intended to be used or abused that way) and were promptly fixed. And openly referred to as abuse or exploits by the devs and, in the most egregious cases, by most of the community as well. And players who abused the thing that was technically possible to do in the game but that was clearly not meant to be possible to do were often punished accordingly, even permanently banned in the most extreme cases. Not just in Kinkoid games, but in many other video games out large.

Beyond that, it's just semantics. I'm not into that. Cheers.

I don't know if it belongs to here, you can move it to separate thread on Q&A, but this question relates to our discussion:

I found that on the season, I'm getting mostly 2 arrays of 3 different opponents, which I see repeating again and again. I discovered that if I fight one of the opponents from the first batch, and then wait for about 15 minutes, the first array appears again. So if it's beneficial for me, I can fight once, then wait, and fight the same opponent again and again.

Is it considered as an "abuse"?

[DvDivXXX]

3 hours ago, OmerB said:

Is it considered as an "abuse"?

I wouldn't, and I doubt Kinkoid would either. Usually when you do fights in close succession in Seasons, the opponent you choose to fight out of the three choices in one selection can't show up in the very next one, so I very often myself in loops of a couple of opponents that I each fight every other selection.

Technically, there is the option to pay 6 kobans to re-roll a selection (although no one should ever waste kobans on that, ever: it's much cheaper and more efficient in the long run to just take a loss if you have to, and move on). If I understood correctly what you've described, it seems that the selection now changes by itself if you're willing to wait for 15 minutes or so in between two Season fights, right?

Well, even then (and even though it didn't use to be the case), I don't see it as any different from things like spending 6 kobans to fight a champion again right away OR waiting 15 minutes to do another fight "for free" instead. In both cases, you're either paying in kobans or with your own precious real-life time.

It might be a bug, or it might be an unannounced improvement of the Season opponent selection process. Either way, deliberately waiting for 10 times 15 minutes to empty your basic 10-Kiss bar hardly sounds like an abuse, because an abuse typically involves gaining an unfair advantage of some kind from the thing that doesn't work as intended. Here, you're gaining a fairly mild advantage in exchange for a massive inconvenience you make yourself go through. That's just using the feature, not abusing it.

[EpicBacon]

3 hours ago, OmerB said:

I don't know if it belongs to here, you can move it to separate thread on Q&A, but this question relates to our discussion:

I found that on the season, I'm getting mostly 2 arrays of 3 different opponents, which I see repeating again and again. I discovered that if I fight one of the opponents from the first batch, and then wait for about 15 minutes, the first array appears again. So if it's beneficial for me, I can fight once, then wait, and fight the same opponent again and again.

Is it considered as an "abuse"?

Oh yeah, I've experienced this aswell, When I use kisses from labyrinth fights, when I run out of battles, I notice that some of the opponents I am facing I can defeat even when I have my lowbie team equipped. But when I return back later on after doing more laby battles and are up to 7-9 kisses, all the easy opponents are no longer there, and instead I am facing people I have trouble taking down with my best battle team. I just assumed the opponents went out of mojo range and I was no longer eligeble to fight them, this is really interesting.

[EpicBacon]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:05 PM, DvDivXXX said:

More on this. So, Saturday morning, I had what I've posted earlier on:

Later on Saturday (or early Sunday morning depending where you are), around midnight CET, it changed:

Then it stayed the same into Sunday morning and until I've checked again shortly after reset at 13:00 CET:

Next change I saw was after reset time on the next day (Monday) around 13:00 CET:

And now it changed shortly after reset today (Tuesday) as well, around 13:00 CET:

Hard to see the full pattern, but it does seem like it changes at least once a day around or shortly after reset time (13:00 CET). But it can also change (or not) roughly halfway between two resets (0:00 CET).

I'll keep taking screenshots to try and figure it out better, because from memory alone if the second-slot girl doesn't change, I just can't be sure it has changed.

I've been tracking my laby coins, I have been buying up mythic bulbs when I've had the chance, and in one 2 day cycle I spent 3.600 coins, buying 3 bulbs total. So yeah, seems to refresh 2 times a day

[EpicBacon]

@DvDivXXX (or any other mods) The reason I linked @DvDivXXX here specifically is because Div has been the most active of the mods (that I am aware of) on labyrinth topic.

This topic is starting to become quite long, 13 pages at current time, and its becoming a lot harder for new people to easily get information about the current status of the labyrinth, relics and skills. There has been a couple of summary posts here, but with the speed of new posts and information coming in, could it be better to make a new topic about the specifics about Labyrinth Relics and skills? Have it pinned, so it stays close to the top, but have it locked so it does not get swamped by messages? I don't know if mods can open and lock posts to change the stuff in the topic at will.

It just seems like a much better place to be able to keep all up to date information about the status of the labyrinth.

[Horsting]

Probably it makes sense to add a new post "Labyrinth Question" to the QA topic? It is naturally closed, but mods could inject new information and updates there which have been discussed/tested/forged here.

[Tom208]

Le 28/12/2023 à 15:26, Tom208 a dit :

About the market refresh, I wonder if it's not the same system than the SM market : refresh 12 hours after you visited the market the first time?

For now, it's just a feeling that I have to verify.

For now, all my observations confirm that feeling. So, we have an invisible 12 hours timer in labyrinth market like the (visible) timer in SM market.

[DvDivXXX]

@EpicBacon & @Horsting

Ideally, a clean and pretty comprehensive guide could be made from various posts and then we could post it as its own standalone guide slash Q&A on Labyrinth in the QA section. That's if either (or both) of you guys have the energy and time to do so (I don't have either at the moment, but on top of that you both know more on the topic than I do).

I think this here thread will stay relevant for a long time as the feature is far from its final form and we're bound to note, share and discuss its current state and evolution for many months to come.

I also think the existing QA thread is nice as a complement for people to ask questions or (for now) find info they're looking for without having to read this 13 page thread.

A third thread, also in the QA section because that's where Guides typically go, would also be useful and complementary to both, imho. I would also like it locked by default, but of course open to further edits or updates.

I'm keeping an eye on this thread and the Labyrinth in general, so of course if/when someone compiles or writes up a guide, I'll be more than happy to help splitting, editing, pinning, locking and anything-ing it. <3

---

PS: Although I haven't posted them, I've kept taking screenshots at least once a day (two when I get the chance) of my Laby Shop and it seems to tend towards refreshing twice a day, but there are exceptions. I had one day where it didn't change at all around midnight as usual, and another where it stayed unchanged throughout the day, before and after the 13:00 CET reset. So nothing conclusive enough yet.

Tom's idea would make sense. I would just need to find out where my starting point is.

Edited December 30, 2023 by DvDivXXX
pings

[CulturedCrow]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:17 PM, EpicBacon said:

Getting two attacks off in one turn is really powerful (if the relic works as intended), not only for the damage, but also the mana, but with such a low chance of triggering I don't think its worth it. I would categorize this relic as a "win more" relic. The effect is strong, but far too low chance for it to be reliable, I might consider picking this up if it was 20-25% chance.

 

 

 

I've run a couple of double attack squads in the labyrinth and my impression was that it's tied to Harmony (which works similar to in regular pvp where your score relative to the opponent applies an adjustment to your base rate. This felt like it played into crits as well). It might be a coincidence, but I had the most success with double attacks while also running Harmony builds.

I was able to double attack 20-30 times each playthrough, and the feature worked as intended as far as I could tell. The only strange thing is that the game shows you your full damage on the first swing, so it looks like the second swing does nothing, but it's just a visual display issue. I was regularly hitting opponents for 450k on the 3rd floor (Normally a juicy crit is 200-250K for me).

From quadrant theory of skill scoring, I would agree generally that it's a Win Harder relic against Easy/Mid opponents, but against a Floor Boss, a double attack can turn the tide in your favor since in my case the Floor boss gets to move first with all 7 of their girls. It often turns into a 5 vs 7, so when I can just delete 3 of their team it is a nice comeback mechanic.

On that note of Speed, my impression is that it's tied mostly to your Hero Level rather than anything you can influence with your girls while in the labyrinth.  I don't have a good way to prove this, but I'm level 469 and my highest-speed girls top out just below 90k speed. When I see pictures from players higher level than me, their girl speed is higher.

[Horsting]

26 minutes ago, CulturedCrow said:

my impression was that it's tied to Harmony (which works similar to in regular pvp where your score relative to the opponent applies an adjustment to your base rate.

You mean that there is a base double-attack chance based on the harmony ratio between both teams, just like the crit chance? I never saw a double attack without the relic(s), so I doubt that. The chance is sufficiently low that you need a lot of runs for enough samples for evidence that harmony has an effect.

26 minutes ago, CulturedCrow said:

running Harmony builds

What do you mean by "Harmony build"? Is there anything else you can do than selecting KH girls (which will be 5 in any case)? Since boosters do not work, not sure how this can be affected in any way?

26 minutes ago, CulturedCrow said:

On that note of Speed, my impression is that it's tied mostly to your Hero Level rather than anything you can influence with your girls while in the labyrinth.  I don't have a good way to prove this, but I'm level 469 and my highest-speed girls top out just below 90k speed.

Aside of the girl's KH, it depends on the hero's harmony, and hence indirectly on its level. The formula is: ceil(0.2*girl's KH + hero's harmony)

You can see the effect of the girl's KH by comparing the speeds of KH girls with others. KH girls are the only ones where the "declaration" as damage dealer is correct, not only because they do deal more damage, but also because they have higher speeds to do this earlier in the battle.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Horsting

[CulturedCrow]

The base rate for double attacks would start at 0 until you get your first relic. After acquiring double attack relics and setting the base rate >0, it just felt to me that Harmony then affected it afterward, similar to how crits work. I've run double attack builds only 4 or so playthroughs, but I only ran a Harmony build on two of those. Those two runs were wildly more successful at proccing double attacks than the runs with no Harmony relics.

By Harmony build, I'm referring to a labyrinth run where I prioritize Harmony relics as I develop my endgame build.