pantheon Pantheon walls

[Ravi-Sama]

22 minutes ago, Kenrae said:

You want critical hits only if you have any chance to win to begin with. If your options are 0 there's no amount of crit% that's going to give you any chance.

So, what you really want is attack power. Even eccentric girls can give you that last push you need to have something above 0%. Or blue/green if they happen to let you last for one more round.

3 minutes ago, DvDivXXX said:

Yeah, we've had way stronger blessings in the somewhat recent past. I don't even think next week would be good enough for me to break wall 1900. So 2000... I doubt that. ^^

Alright, maybe 2000 is out of reach next week, like always.  If my level cap was 750, I think I could definitely break 1700 w/ next week's blessings.  Too bad I don't have the GXP, and I'm waiting until the LC to unlock it.  I'll do some math just for fun, but I'm not gonna spend resources on it.

We have Doms blessed 20% right now, and it's not that great.  What we really needed was a strong blessing %.  Next week, we'll have that 35%-69% on L5/M6s.  Even those 7 weaker L5s would be super strong, w/ 23.6-25.3k power, just like Bright Agate, and the other 2 Dom M6s right now, w/ 23.9k-25.7k power.

Since 1/4 of the girls' total power is what helps boost Atk higher, that extra 25k total power will help a lot.

If I could pick any 7 of those 12 at lvl 750, I'd pick Venus, Blet, U. Valentina, Level Up Red, Michaela, Hilda, and Taurus.  They'd have 194.28k total power.  The strongest girl, the 5 Physicals, and the 1 Dom that I already have at lvl 700.  Let's say I had max passives, then that team would have a +9% Dom bonus, and a +17% crit chance.  Even at my level of 459, if I had that team, w/ 6 mono gear, 3x cords, and a headband, my atk would be 180.95k.  That's crazy high.  It's the same atk as the temple 1700 boss.  Back when I had a 187.3k team 2 months ago, my atk was 174k (but I was lvl 442).  I figured back then, if I did 3 crits in a row, I'd win, and that I could survive 5 rounds total.  Meaning 5 chances to do 3 crits, w/ 181k Atk, and a +17% crit chance.  I like those odds.

I'm glad I understand this stuff now.  I couldn't predict this at all before.  Even if next week's blessings don't help beat floor 2000, they can definitely help some player at a lower wall like 1500-1600 rise up.  It's worth mentioning just for that, in case they themselves didn't realize it before.

[DvDivXXX]

This might sound like a nitpick, but I really think it's important (I typically only check two tabs on Zoo's spreadsheet regularly, and I've just checked the "Blessing log" for the first time; unfortunately, it doesn't store the data I think is most relevant for this type of consideration, only the other one).

The % isn't important in and of itself, what really matters for a given week to be particularly strong is the Max Base Sum column.

It's all well and good and it might sound impressive that such and such are "double-blessed at 69%" or  "blessed at 35%", but depending on which specific girls happen to get the weekly buffs in question, and how strong or weak they are as a baseline, the actual strength that this gives may vary IMMENSELY.

We've had weeks with up to 5 girls at or around 40 base sum stats. That's a lot stronger that the above. I don't remember the percentages or even the particular girls, but I know that the buffed Max Base stat is always reliable and actionable (and can directly be entered into your formula to check just how strong of a team we can potentially make on a particular week). So that's what I focus on (and recommend to focus on).

A quick and dirty check can be total power once you made your team. Below 200k, I won't even bother trying to hit my current wall (1900) again, that's for sure. And then, once we do get a lot of raw power like that, looking into what good active bonuses that happens to include will be another important factor to decide if it's worth the Headband and hassle or not just yet.

In my situation, last week's blessings were nowhere near enough (0.64% odds even going all in). This current week's are even worse, despite including one of the strongest active bonuses. Next week doesn't look to cut it either.

Obviously, the lower your wall, the less picky you need to be. I'm sure next week (on .com) could work more than fine for 1500 or 1600, for instance.

[Ravi-Sama]

1 hour ago, DvDivXXX said:

The % isn't important in and of itself, what really matters for a given week to be particularly strong is the Max Base Sum column.

The "max base sum" is just the girls' base stat total, multiplied by the blessings.  The blessing % is important, b/c it's half of the equation.  As long as L5s and M6s are blessed (~25-28.56 base stats) w/ a 35%-69% blessing, it's gonna be a great week.  There's gonna be 12 of those girls above 23.6k total stats, all the way up to 31.6k for Venus, at lvl 750.  For reference, a lvl 750 M6 girl just has 21.4k total stats.

I'm gonna have a 175k team, w/o even upgrading anything.  That's awesome.  Plus, there's 3 blessed Doms, and 6 blessed Physicals to choose from.  I did make a theoretical team, and it had 194.3k total power, w/ 181k atk.  For perspective, you had a 196.2k total power team, w/ 187k atk vs. the 1900 wall, where you had a 0.64% win chance, but you're 41 levels above me.  Plus, you were using random elements, not the specialized Atk/Crit Chance team, that's possible next week.

This "standard" of top 7 girls w/ 40 Max Base Sum, is a 210k total power team.  A Base of 40 happens when a mythic girl is blessed 40%, (28.56*1.4=40), or an L5 girl is blessed 60% (25*1.6=40).  Then multiply that by lvl 750 (30k), and 7 for the team's 210k total power. 

I can dream bigger though.  The max blessing possible is 96%, when there's a double 40% blessing (1.4^2).  Therefore, the strongest team possible in the game has 293,882.4 total power.  Cool!  I didn't know that before.  (That's 7x M6 girls w/ ~56 Max Base Sum).  If I had a 293.8k team, assuming they're all dominatrix, b/c why not?  Then, my Atk would be 249.8k, lol.  With 3 cords, 6 mono gear, and a headband, of course.  It'd be even higher if I was lvl 500.  I bet I could jump from temple 1700 to 2000 in a day w/ that team (but so would everyone else).  I better stop now, I'm daydreaming.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Ravi-Sama

[Kenrae]

1 hour ago, DvDivXXX said:

Obviously, the lower your wall, the less picky you need to be. I'm sure next week (on .com) could work more than fine for 1500 or 1600, for instance.

I think it will work up to 1800. At least for level 500 players.

[Liliat]

il y a 4 minutes, Ravi-Sama a dit :

The "max base sum" is just the girls' base stat total, multiplied by the blessings.  The blessing % is important, b/c it's half of the equation

It's curious how you use the term "just" for the actual end result that matters, and the word "important" for only half of this result 🤔

Zoe is blessed at 69%, yet she's on the weaker side (32.06 base power), compared to say, Lenaëlle, who's only blessed at 25%, yet she has a blessed power of 35.7. Clearly, this blessed base power is what really matters.

Then, the only remaining variable is your current harem level (or girl level), but that will be different for each player and can't be used to rank a girl in general.

[DvDivXXX]

Thank Lustia for Liliat's post, because I'm tired beyond belief and can't write multiple novels on the forum tonight. ^^

I'll just rectify this real quick, which is also very important for Ravi to check properly: 

1 hour ago, Ravi-Sama said:

For reference, a lvl 750 M6 girl just has 21.4k total stats.

Hell no. Not even the weakest of L5s are that low (at level 750). You must be having your level 700 girls in mind? (But even for that it seems really low to me; I mean a lvl 700 M6 is for sure stronger than a level 750 R5, right? ^^).

The tab you want to look at to get the real max base sum values for each girl is "Unblessed Stats". BEWARE, THOUGH! They're NOT ranked by actual power. That tab from Zoo's spreadsheet seems to use "Chance to be in Top 7" as the main factor to rank the girls. That's not realistically useful though imho. So some girls stronger in actual stats (not even mentioning Element) end up ranked sometimes way lower than others because of abstract considerations like eye color and double hair color and all the stuff that's worth caring about BEFORE you know the Blessings (and even then it's taken way too seriously in general, especially when odds are 10% and far below).

Fact-checking:

These are shit stats. Even with a blessing on Rare, not even Lyrsa (the strongest Rare) makes the cut in any veteran competitive team. She needs like +35% Rare AND a secondary blessing for that.

These are the bare minimum stats of even the worst of M6s:

As you can see, none of the three Dark ones are in there. And the two top ranks are taken by girls with shitty active bonuses. And Yellow garbage are not at rock bottom for the rarity.

Still: 28.56 Max base sum is the bare minimum any Mythic gives you any day, unblessed even Noemy or Moe. So, let's re-read the quote below together with this in mind:

1 hour ago, Ravi-Sama said:

There's gonna be 12 of those girls above 23.6k total stats, all the way up to 31.6k for Venus, at lvl 750.

Wow. 12 of these girls will be at least almost as strong as the weakest of obsolete L5s when they're unblessed?

All the way up to Venus who will still be a little weaker than any Mythic with the bare minimum of blessings?

Yeah...  Reconsider this and really look at MAX BASE SUM, dude. And beware of the annoyingly meaningless sorting by "Chance to be in Top 7" instead of "Actual Unblessed STRENGTH" when you study the Unblessed Stats tab.

Okay, since you're giving stats that don't match the spreadsheet at all, I have to assume you're checking their stat for a lower level, and/or you're mixing that stat with something else. Next week won't be BAD (as this week is), but nothing to write home about. We've had and can have a lot better.

Damn, I wrote way too much. Okay, I'll call it a night. ^^ Love! ❤️ Div*

[Liliat]

il y a 38 minutes, DvDivXXX a dit :

  I'll just rectify this real quick, which is also very important for Ravi to check properly: 

Il y a 2 heures, Ravi-Sama a dit :

For reference, a lvl 750 M6 girl just has 21.4k total stats.

Hell no. Not even the weakest of L5s are that low (at level 750). You must be having your level 700 girls in mind? (But even for that it seems really low to me; I mean a lvl 700 M6 is for sure stronger than a level 750 R5, right? ^^).

I think you're just using a different unit here: Div is talking about "base stats" (Level 1 sum), Ravi is using "Total power" (Level 750 Sum).

So with a 28.56 Base power (Level 1 Mythic), you indeed have a 21.4k total power at level 750 (21,420). Lyrsa has a 21.5 Base power, and 16.1k at lvl 750 (Total power)

[EpicBacon]

28 minutes ago, Liliat said:

I think you're just using a different unit here: Div is talking about "base stats" (Level 1 sum), Ravi is using "Total power" (Level 750 Sum).

So with a 28.56 Base power (Level 1 Mythic), you indeed have a 21.4k total power at level 750 (21,420). Lyrsa has a 21.5 Base power, and 16.1k at lvl 750 (Total power)

this is why you don't mix Metric and Imperial

[Ravi-Sama]

Nothing I said was wrong. That's why I put a "k" after numbers, for total power.  To differentiate it from max base sum, which I also specified.  It's a misunderstanding.  It happens.  Maybe I didn't communicate well enough.  Maybe it's the time difference.  You did say you were tired.  I'm also tired.  Gonna take a nap.  *Shrugs*

Also, this is why I mentioned the strongest team in the game, w/ 7x 56 Max Base Sum girls, which is only possible due to a double 40% blessing (1.96 multiplier).  It's not the Mythics' 28.56 base stats that makes the difference there.  It's the blessing %.  If 7x L5s had the 96% blessing, or 7x M6s did, that would be a 257.25k team vs a 293.88k team.  Sure, that would be a 36.6k total power difference between them, but both teams could still easily destroy the 2000 wall.  Thanks to the blessing, not really their base stats.

Even 7x 5 star common girls, at lvl 750, would make a 200k total power team, if they had a 96% blessing.

(C5 girl w/ 19.5 Base Stats) * (1.96 blessing) = (38.22 Max Base Sum) * (Level 750) = (28,665 Power per girl) * (7 girls) = 200,655 Total Power

This insane max total power team, I was daydreaming about, w/ 293.88k total power is actually possible.  All we would need is a 40% Blue Eyes blessing, plus a 40% Mythic Girl Blessing.  That would lead to 7x M6s getting 96% double blessed.  Then, boom, the Pantheon is destroyed.  We'd all get Aquarius.

Base stat difference between L5s and M6s is just 14.2%.  Blessing % has the real potential, w/ up to a 96% boost.

There's 3 Mythic girls blessed this week, just like next week.  They have the same 28.56 base stats.  It's the blessings that make this week suck, and next week awesome.  20% vs. 35%.

[DvDivXXX]

Yop, my bad, I never noticed the "k" after your numbers until Liliat mentioned it. ^^ I was insanely tired, to be fair.

Well, apart from the misunderstanding about each of us referring to a different measure, nothing I said was wrong either. The max base sum is by far the most useful and practical metric to take into account each week to gauge the potential of that week's blessings in practice, with girls that exist in general, and in each player's harem in particular.

Having said all that, and in the same spirit as my recent rethinking of my budget approach to Leagues, I'd like to quote something Attirm said in another thread this night but is very relevant to this here Pantheon Walls thread:  

3 hours ago, Attirm said:

I would counter that there's really no reason to go any further once you've beaten floor 1500. Yes, there are some decent rewards up there, but the next big reward is at floor 2000 and literally nobody has that girl. There is almost certainly going to be power creep in the future, and in my view there is no sense spending kobons now to bypass walls that are going to get power crept in due time. I think it can make sense if it will actually give you a girl right now, but that's it.

He's absolutely right. Obviously, many of us will immediately have Pandora Witch Tier 3 in mind, and how ridiculously hard and expensive of a challenge it was to grab her 3-star Estelle back in the old combat system days. Then BDSM arrived and that became as mundane as any other villain fight.

I agree something quite similar is bound to happen for high level Pantheon, and we even have pretty strong clues as to what (The whole "Hero Journey" feature project). I have no idea when that will get released, but we're struggling so damn hard even using the best tools at our disposal at max level and wasting hundreds on kobans on an otherwise terrible Mythic booster that it almost seems that late Pantheon stages were designed with the future skill trees we don't have yet in mind.

So yeah, as exciting, challenging and interesting as this thread is, and the efforts it showcases and the insanely deep research and theorycrafting it leads to... I think in my current situation at least, it might be wise to start stockpiling the Temple currency for now and wait and see. After all, these final 270 PvE fights, 20 MPx1s, 9 GPx10s and 1 Aquarius L5 aren't going anywhere (hopefully). They'll come in handy some day.

Many things we discuss, dissect, and exchange here can be useful far beyond the scope of Pantheon Walls, though. And I'm still going to save, study and treasure Ravi's charts. ❤️

[Liliat]

Il y a 8 heures, Ravi-Sama a dit :

This insane max total power team, I was daydreaming about, w/ 293.88k total power is actually possible.  All we would need is a 40% Blue Eyes blessing, plus a 40% Mythic Girl Blessing.  That would lead to 7x M6s getting 96% double blessed.  Then, boom, the Pantheon is destroyed.  We'd all get Aquarius.

Not quite: Pantheon is full-mythic, so it would be insanely blessed as well

On lower floors, the Pantheon total power is very low, so the blessings don't affect it that much, but on Floor 2000, I believe, it gets a full team of Level 750 M6, so it benefits from Mythic Blessings just like anyone else

[bolitho76]

I think best blessings to beat Pantheon2000 at the moment would be an elemental blessing and pose blessing of 35%+ and both, element and pose, are not in the battleteam of the Pantheon. If you have enough Mythics lvl750 which fits Pose and Element you could have a chance to have an breakthrough.

[DvDivXXX]

Not exactly. The girls stay at 3 stars throughout (at least up to 1900 where I'm stuck), but both their Level and, so much more importantly, the "Player Level" of the Temple opponent keep growing. And it's already WAY past max levels (for us) at Stage 1900:

The girls are not the issue, and I doubt that will change by Stage 2000. Can't see it in that screenshot, but their total power is barely above 110k vs my girls' 164k, in this case. Even with Matcha getting blessed.

The problem is facing a Level 792 "Player" as your opponent. Those ludicrous stats come from the Temple itself, not its girl line-up. 

[Liliat]

On Floor 2000, the total power was shown at 166k on one screenshot in this thread. This looks like the final Pantheon Boss knows about gifts

[DvDivXXX]

Maybe so, but even then, my point stands. A level 892 (or however high as a kite it gets by Stage 2000) "player" might crush any of us even if they had a single 1-star girl as their team.  

[FGoog]

Edit: my logic below is wrong- I somehow forgot that the Dark bonus applies to the raw attack value not the damage, so my 25% calculation for the break-even point is way off. It is somewhere in the 45% to 60% range for PvP opponents, and Dark will always be better against the Pantheon. Also I learned that the passive Harem red bonus also tilts things in favor of Dark being more preferred.

 

One thing I wanted to share that's related to something mentioned earlier in this thread, is a comparison of Dominatrix and eccentric girls.

 

When comparing a dominatrix girl and an eccentric girl of the same power level, the two are precisely equivalent if 1/4 of your hits are critical hits. If the fraction of critical hits exceeds that, then the eccentric girl's bonus does more damage. If the fraction is less than that, then the dominatrix girl's bonus does more damage.

Background information for the explanation- the damage dealt in a critical hit is 2 regular hits, plus the eccentric bonus.

 

Considering the dominatrix girl, after 4 rounds with 1 of those being a critical hit, their 2% elemental attack bonus is applied 5 times- 3 times for the 3 regular hits, and then twice on the critical hit, leading to a total bonus of %10 of the attack power extra damage dealt at the end of those 4 rounds (5 x 2%). The eccentric girl's 10% bonus is applied once (on the critical hit). So the same outcome is reached in both cases, and then you can see how more than 1 out of 4 critical hits leads to the eccentric girl being preferred, and less than 1 out of 4 critical hits leads to the dominatrix being preferred.

 

So if your plan to break a Pantheon Wall relies on more than 1 out of 4 rounds as critical hits, then you are better off with an eccentric girl of the same power. In League fights, eccentrics would almost certainly be preferred for fights in which you have the critical hit counter bonus, with Dominatrix preferred in most other fights. Eccentrics might be slightly preferred in fights in which you have a big enough physical elemental bonus, say if you were going for the physical counter bonus against a playful team, and also have a high passive physical bonus.

 

Side point related to this- I am not %100 sure the HH script correctly accounts for things like eccentric and sensual bonuses, especially for the enemy. This was most noticeable for me when fighting upper all sensual levels of the Pantheon. When the script would tell me I had a 75% chance of winning, in practice it seemed like I was consistently only winning about 1 out of 5 of these battles. I have not bothered to look into the code to check how it does that, but that might be worth someone doing.

Edited August 13, 2022 by FGoog
Explaining my boo-boo

[Liliat]

Very interesting points. However, getting 25% of crit chances against Pantheon is almost impossible on higher levels:

- Pantheon Bosses are rainbow, so you can't have the +20% crit chance from domination scheme

- Pantheon Harmony is super high, so you may get maybe 10% crit chance from Harmony (1/3 of the 30% crit pool)

- 100 Orange girls add 7%

- To reach 25%, you need 4 orange girls in your team, which doesn't leave a lot of room for Grey/Red girls

In leagues, it's a different story though, as the > 25% crit chance is a lot easier to get (Either against low-harmony mono-stat opponents, or with the domination scheme).

Another point: Red and Dark bonuses multiply with each other (whereas Dark + Dark are added, and Red + Red are added), so a mix of Red/Dark might potentially bring you even further than Full red or Full dark.

[DvDivXXX]

For the record, Red bonus only applies to the additional damage, not the full damage you do when you crit. That's why it's a lot weaker than I used to think.

To be clear:
If regular hit = 100k damage
Crit hit = 200k damage + (100k X Red bonus %)
If you have max passive Red bonus (+35%):
Crit hit = 235k damage instead of 200k
And then each Red girl in your team adds +10% of 100k to that. Additive, not multiplicative.
So if you have max passive Red bonus (+35%) AND a full team of 7 Red girls (+70%):
Crit hit = 305k damage instead of 235k

Which sucks donkey balls.

Dark bonus adds +2% to your total damage at the very end of the calculations, just like a cordy. And it counts for every hit.

To be clear:
If regular hit = 100k damage
If you have both passive bonuses (Dark & Red) at max, then actually:
Regular hit = 100k + (100k x Dark bonus of 7%) = 107k
Crit hit = 214k + (107k x Red Bonus of 35%) = 251k
With a full Dark team on top:
Regular hit = 121k
Crit hit = 242k + (121k x 35%) = 284.35k
With a full Red team instead:
Regular hit = 107k
Crit hit = 214k + (107 x 105%) = 326.35k

So yeah, would rather do a marginally bigger amount of damage when you happen to crit, or a significantly bigger amount all of the time? It doesn't even begin to compare, in any situation. Dark is always much better than Red, even if you crit a lot.

[Ravi-Sama]

Seems like this thread would appreciate +40% Dom & +40% Legendary blessings.

Also, idc if chasing after temple 2000 makes "sense" or not, that's part of the fun.  Getting stronger to beat the Pantheon, also makes other parts of the game easier.  Plus, there's gonna be other Pantheons.

I recruited Bright Agate easily, w/ 666 CP, from temples 1500-1700.  Definitely worth going above 1500 imo.

I can unlock the level 750 level cap anytime now.  I gained enough GXP, from the CbC.  I'm gonna see if it'll be possible to break my 1700 wall, w/ next week's blessings.  That 20 Temple energy GA gift, made it so I have 113 worship stored atm.  It's burning a hole in my pocket.  I can afford to waste a dozen or so, banging my head against the wall.

[FGoog]

12 hours ago, Liliat said:

Very interesting points. However, getting 25% of crit chances against Pantheon is almost impossible on higher levels:

The chances of it are indeed low but in order to beat the Pantheon walls at the upper levels that's usually what needs to occur. You can refer to my other post in this thread from a few days ago in that for Pantheon wall planning, it's helpful to think about precisely the number of critical hits you need in the number of rounds that you can survive. For me anyway at the walls above 1000 that fraction of necessary critical hits has been higher than 1/4. Say for example you can survive for 5 rounds against a Pantheon Wall and you are on the cusp of needing either 2 or 3 critical hits in order to beat the opponent in that many rounds. If you only need 2 critical hits your odds of success go way up relative to only needing 3. Both fractions are above the %25 mark. So you could have a situation where the eccentric girl but not the dominatrix girl allows you to win with 2 critical hits. And in any case the eccentric in that scenario would at least do no worse than the dominatrix in terms of the chance of success for the fight.

 

Passive bonuses are irrelevant for the question because you have no control over them unless you want to start kicking girls out of your harem (and if you can find a way to do that in the game). Or in the case where you have an option to add new girls to your harem (for those of us without maxed out passive bonuses already), for the purpose of winning the Pantheon battle you would always want as many girls in your harem as possible, so there is no thought there. You do have control over which girls are in your fighting team.

 

It is true that there is a little bit of synergy in situations where you can have both a dominatrix girl and an eccentric girl in the fighting team, say for 2 slots that you have open, because as @DvDivXXX points out the red bonus multiplies the dark bonus too. But that effect is smallish- the combined crit hit bonus for an added dominatrix and eccentric would be %12.2. But in a situation where you to pick 1, the %25 threshold holds.

 

League fights are where it makes more sense to think about things in terms of probability of critical hits rather than what must have occurred in order for you to have won the fight. However, don't forget the harmony critical hit bonus. For example if you have the same harmony as your opponent then you have a 15% critical hit chance from that (according to the performance handbook, but I think that's correct for that). That adds to the physical girl bonus and would change the calculation of Dominatrix vs. Eccentric in the situations you mention.

[Liliat]

Il y a 3 heures, FGoog a dit :

The chances of it are indeed low but in order to beat the Pantheon walls at the upper levels that's usually what needs to occur

Right: the probability and the effective number of crits are different. Having a probability of 25% or more to crit is very low, but doing 25% crits in a single fights is absolutely possible, even with a low crit probability.

Against pantheon, it's the effective number of crits that matters, not the long term average/probability. In that case, I agree.

[DvDivXXX]

3 hours ago, FGoog said:

It is true that there is a little bit of synergy in situations where you can have both a dominatrix girl and an eccentric girl in the fighting team, say for 2 slots that you have open, because as @DvDivXXX points out the red bonus multiplies the dark bonus too. But that effect is smallish- the combined crit hit bonus for an added dominatrix and eccentric would be %12.2. But in a situation where you to pick 1, the %25 threshold holds.

 

League fights are where it makes more sense to think about things in terms of probability of critical hits rather than what must have occurred in order for you to have won the fight. However, don't forget the harmony critical hit bonus. For example if you have the same harmony as your opponent then you have a 15% critical hit chance from that (according to the performance handbook, but I think that's correct for that). That adds to the physical girl bonus and would change the calculation of Dominatrix vs. Eccentric in the situations you mention.

Even then, Dark (and Blue) ALWAYS trumps Red. Red does nothing at all except during crit hits, and even then, especially when you already have the quite significant passive bonuses for both maxed out, it doesn't do all that much when it does do something. By contrast, Dark does something very impactfull all of the time, with synergy not just with Red but also with Blue. A Dark team hits harder and consequently heals more HP every turn compared to a Red team that only hits and heals just a bit more than the Dark one during crit hits, and a lot less the rest of the time. This means the Dark team will survive longer and do more damage than the Red one, even in the type of dream scenario currently required to have a hope in hell of beating the last few Pantheon Walls.

Say you crit every other turn. And for clarity and simplicity, say you have all passive bonuses maxed out (also because I think anyone in a position to fight the final two or three Pantheon Walls almost certainly does anyway).

Default (without any Dark, Red or Blue active bonus):
Regular hit = 100k + (100k x Dark bonus of 7%) = 107k damage
and (107k x Blue bonus of 10%) = +10.7k HP from Lifesteal (except on turn 1 obv)
Crit hit = 214k + (107k x Red Bonus of 35%) = 251k damage
and (251k x Blue bonus of 10%) = 25.1k HP from Lifesteal (except on turn 1 obv)

With a full Dark team on top:
Regular hit = 121k
and (121k x Blue bonus of 10%) = +12.1k HP from Lifesteal (except on turn 1 obv)
Crit hit = 242k + (121k x 35%) = 284.35k
and (284.35k x Blue bonus of 10%) = +28.4k HP from Lifesteal (except on turn 1 obv)

With a full Red team instead:
Regular hit = 107k
and (107k x Blue bonus of 10%) = +10.7k HP from Lifesteal (except on turn 1 obv)
Crit hit = 214k + (107 x 105%) = 326.35k
and (326.35k x Blue bonus of 10%) = +32.6k HP from Lifesteal (except on turn 1 obv)

With a full BLUE team instead:
Regular hit = 107k
and (107k x Blue bonus of 31%) = +33.1k HP from Lifesteal (except on turn 1 obv)
Crit hit = 214k + (107k x 35%) = 251k damage
and (251k x Blue bonus of 31%) = 77.8k HP from Lifesteal (except on turn 1 obv)

Say the fight lasts 4 turn and you crit every other turn. Let's be even more optimal in our dream scenario and say you crit every even turn, so every crit heals you.

Dark Team:
Turn 1: hits for 121k; takes 150k damage in its face
Turn 2: hits for 284.35k; heals for 28.4k; takes another 150k damage
Turn 3: hits for 121k, heals for 12.1k, takes another 150k damage
Turn 4: hits for 284.35k; heals for 28.4k; takes another 150k damage

Red Team:
Turn 1: hits for 107k; takes 150k damage in its face
Turn 2: hits for 326.35k; heals for 32.6k; takes another 150k damage
Turn 3: hits for 107k, heals for 10.7k, takes another 150k damage
Turn 4: hits for 326.35k; heals for 32.6k; takes another 150k damage

Blue Team:
Turn 1: hits for 107k; takes 150k damage in its face
Turn 2: hits for 251k; heals for 77.8k; takes another 150k damage
Turn 3: hits for 107k, heals for 33.1k, takes another 150k damage
Turn 4: hits for 251k; heals for 77.8k; takes another 150k damage

Alright... That's way too much maths for me already. ^^ I'll let you excel wizards and living calculators take it from here if you want (including to disprove what I said above, if that turns out not to hold up to my hypothesis).

But it seems to me that if we go for the full-blown Hail Mary play of "let's hope we crit like crazy", Blue would survive much longer and therefore do more damage overtime despite doing less damage than the other two imaginary teams all along... Like in BB, basically.

[Liliat]

Math is tricky. So I simulated instead (It also makes it easier to adjust a single parameter, or even to create an "impossible" team without any element bonus for a baseline). I created 4 virtual teams to fight my current Pantheon floor (I had to slightly boost the teams to get a non-0% chance; if I used my actual current team it just wouldn't work )

Team 1: "Full Rainbow". No bonuses whatsoever. Impossible to do in game, of course.
Team 2: Full blue (31% Heal)
Team 3: Full red (105% Crit Damage)
Team 4: Full dark (27% Damage)

Then I did 4 runs, by adjusting the base crit rate each time. Again, this wouldn't work in practice, because the only way to modify your crit rate is to add orange girls, which would reduce your other bonuses. But for the sake of the demonstration, I think it's fine. In all cases, I had a 12% crit rate from Harmony (18% for the Pantheon boss).

Results: (All values are % chances to win)

Edit: As noticed by Div below, I made a mistake for Dark. Updated/Correct results have been posted further below. I leave these (incorrect) results here for reference.

Citation

 

7% Crit chance: (19% W/ Harmony)

    Rainbow: 0.858
    Blue: 1.796
    Red: 4.382
    Dark: 16.04
    
13% Crit chance: (25% W/ Harmony)

    Rainbow: 2.124
    Blue: 4.433
    Red: 8.543
    Dark: 24.545
    
25% Crit chance (37% W/ Harmony)

    Rainbow: 6.881
    Blue: 14.474
    Red: 20.553
    Dark: 42.526
    
38% Crit chance (50% W/ Harmony)

    Rainbow: 14.771
    Blue: 31.314
    Red: 37.302
    Dark: 61.023

 

We see that Dark absolutely DOMINATES all other elements. I didn't expect such results, but there is a very simple reason for that: Defense is subtracted BEFORE crit multiplier is applied. And the Pantheon has a HUGE defense.

Let's take a simple example, from these simulation runs. The attacker's base Attack was set at 118k. The Pantheon boss (1400) has a defense of 66.8k

So a default attack doesn't do 118k damage; it does 118 - 66.8 = 51.2

A default crit doesn't do 118k x 2.35, it does 51.2 x 2.35 = 120.32

Now, let's apply Dark and Red elements:

- Dark: 140k attack, 73.26k damage, 172.16 on crit

- Red: 118k attack, 51.2k damage, 171.52 on crit

We see that even in case of a crit, Red still does less damage than Dark, simply because the opponent's defense is "multiplied" by our crit damage, as we see with this formula: damage = (att - def) * critDamage

Again: this result is especially biased for Pantheon, due to the huge defense it has. I'm only at Floor 1400, and the boss already has more defense (67k) than any 500/750 player (40~45k ish)

This is also why Cordyceps and Mono are so good against Pantheon, because they buff your attack. Without that, you'd barely scratch the boss, even with a x2.35 crit on each round.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Liliat

[DvDivXXX]

1 hour ago, Liliat said:

Team 4: Full dark (27% Damage)

Thanks a lot for your post, awesome stuff. Unfortunately, there's either a typo or an error above. The max possible Dark bonus is +21%, not 27% (7% max passive and 2% per girl in the team for another 14%).

Hopefully, this isn't the (main) reason why Dark dominated so much in your sims. 🙏

[Liliat]

il y a 35 minutes, DvDivXXX a dit :

Hopefully, this isn't the (main) reason why Dark dominated so much in your sims. 🙏

Oops, I made a team of 10 Dark girls

I'll update the results!