leagues [ August 2nd, 2023 ] Leagues Redesign

[Ravi-Sama]

Just curious whether @Antimon was actually recently un-boosted.  Should be around 8:45 AM CEST Italian time.  My avg score was 23.67, compared to the 23.48 sim E[X], so very close.  Seems to work fine to me.  Get excited whenever I see a fellow forum member.

Also, have some good news that league sorting should be fixed by next week, and the change team function will be re-added to the league page.  We'll eventually be able to choose either the girl or stats view, as the default.  I prefer stats.  It's just more practical.  Have to keep switching back in PSH atm.

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Ravi-Sama
Added future update/fix info.

[Antimon]

2 hours ago, Ravi-Sama said:

Just curious whether @Antimon was actually recently un-boosted.  Should be around 8:45 AM CEST Italian time.  My avg score was 23.67, compared to the 23.48 sim E[X], so very close.  Seems to work fine to me.  Get excited whenever I see a fellow forum member.

Also, have some good news that league sorting should be fixed by next week, and the change team function will be re-added to the league page.  We'll eventually be able to choose either the girl or stats view, as the default.  I prefer stats.  It's just more practical.  Have to keep switching back in PSH atm.

 

Tragically unboosted. I was only able to log in a few minutes ago, and last time I was online it was around half past midnight (Italian time)

Ravi edit: cool, thanks for confirming it.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Ravi-Sama

[Эники-беники]

On 8/2/2023 at 9:33 PM, Horsting said:

EDIT: Okay retested, and it's like this:

• Indeed after finishing the x3 fight, the game take you back to the table.
• But it takes a few seconds before doing so. In my case there is sufficient time, after hitting OK for the result/rewards, to hit the team edit button. And this works well.
• But of course no guarantee that that current performance issues with all league pages won't be addressed to eliminate this possibility.

Some observation: you CAN open "GO" link in new tab.

 

So it gives many opportunities:

* Flow by list/table, open desired opponents in new tabs. Check E[X] -- do fight or close

* Even you fight, list don't changing: no reloading, no reset of sort,..

* Open your favourite opponent(s) in tab(s). And check them eventually (for boosters and so on)

* Open last opponent in two tabs. First for fight. Second -- for team change.

 

By the way: what is a "defense team"? And why is it so important?

 

(didn't find mentioning this in thread. so drop it if double)

[Horsting]

3 hours ago, Ravi-Sama said:

We'll eventually be able to choose either the girl or stats view, as the default.  I prefer stats.  It's just more practical.

Might you add the suggestion to have the table switch completely removed, just show the extended view, and move the girl up to the empty space in top left corner? There is much important information for league fights which should all be always visible, and I see zero reason why the girl would need so much of the limited space.

7 minutes ago, Эники-беники said:

Some observation: you CAN open "GO" link in new tab.

That's true, even in an own window to see individual results and table side by side. To be true, using only the "Power" value as orientation (and the booster status of course), works quite well for me. I never had a case there the E[X] was very different when this "Power" value (whatever it is exactly?) was similar. So this kinda works for me without the need to enter the battle page for each opponent before actually aiming to fight.

10 minutes ago, Эники-беники said:

By the way: what is a "defense team"? And why is it so important?

The team you have selected in league, which opponents see when they fight you. It should usually (unless blessings make one class very strong) be a rainbow team, so opponents cannot get a counter bonus against you. So when you attack, you use your strongest team against this enemy, usually one with counter bonus, if the opponent's team has a colour, otherwise it may be probably blue or dark. But you should not give opponents to attack you with counter bonus by choosing a yellow or violet team against you in this case, so keep the strongest rainbow team selected instead.

[Ravi-Sama]

12 minutes ago, Horsting said:

this "Power" value (whatever it is exactly?)

On 8/1/2023 at 1:00 PM, Ravi-Sama said:

Power = Ego + (Attack + Defense)*7.5 + Harmony*0.625

Power was defined in the patch notes; it's just the players' stats multiplied and added in a particular sequence.  I think (atk+def)*7.5 has the most significance.  Ego remains the same, and harmony is actually reduced by 37.5%.  No stats actually change.  It's just meant to be an easier way to interpret a player's difficulty.  I use it more in CxH/PSH to find easier fights.

16 minutes ago, Horsting said:

suggestion to have the table switch completely removed

Making the stat view default solves it.  I think the focus should be spent on fixing the bugs, before tweaking preferences.

28 minutes ago, Эники-беники said:

By the way: what is a "defense team"? And why is it so important?

It's the team you're currently using that gets updated w/ a snapshot about every 6 hrs.  Other players fight it, but since it doesn't really earn you any points, I don't think it actually matters.

[Horsting]

Other topic, and sorry for the wall of text 😅: I can verify that there is something buggy with the booster and player stats. I am sorry for the complicated image arrangement, and that I always remove ingame player names and countries for forum posts does not make it easier. But let me try to explain step-by-step. Two things in the front:

• I use @430i's HH++ extension to have opponent's team colours added, expired boosters highlighted (red border) and an actual team power column added (the one shown on battle pages below the team, not to confuse with the new "Power" column added by the game, explained by Ravi above).
• All opponent's stats on the table matched the ones on their battle page, only with defence reduced by my playful defence penalty, also done correctly in 2 cases where I checked. My own stats however where a little different, but more on that below.

• The white lines divide blocks taken at different times.
• The first block was from before the snapshot. I assume it is still 45 - 50 minutes after reset, and every 6 hours, but actually I am not 100% sure about that anymore.
  • The 1st player had its boosters equipped less an hour ago, hence after last snapshot. I was suspicious whether the boosters correctly affect its stats already, also because of the very low AP value. Also I couldn't imagine how a player with such stats when being max boosted could have 1st position in D3.
  • The 2nd for comparison, and as its boosters were about to expire in 40 minutes.
  • The next has expired boosters, and I wanted to see whether its stats change with next snapshot.
  • And then I added myself. I sadly forgot to make a screenshot of my own stats before I replaced an expired cordy with a ginseng. However, my AP definitely was reduced immediately (after a page reload), and when I equipped the ginseng, my ego moved from 49xk to 509k, which matches the ginseng stats bonus quite well. However, I did now see the same as @DvDivXXX, that my stats on the battle page were different: Ego 518k, and in my case even harmony 74k, which is not affected by any of my hero or GG resonance bonus (but raw GG stats) or any skills etc, which I thought of a reason for the discrepancy before.
• Next block shows the situation after next snapshot. I mean after the expected snapshot time with about 20 minutes added just to be sure, about 02:10 MET to be precise.
  • The first two players switched position, otherwise absolutely nothing changed.
• Then some minutes later I recognised that the player with expired boosters renewed them with the exact same set of fresh boosters (poor one not being able to at least keep 4x ginseng up 😅). Interestingly, its stats did not change at all. This somehow pointed to my prior suspicion that freshly equipped boosters are not immediately added to opponent stats. But why does not even the reset do that, if so?
• Then, what I was waiting for, the 1st had its boosters expired. As a relieve, matching to what I observed before: The AP was immediately reduced, but then, the whole team was changed at the same time, to a much more powerful one, including colours. So expiring boosters do indeed update the player's snapshot immediately? Makes sense to not have the booster bonus effectively adjusted while the team remains from an old snapshot.
• Not to expect differently from a player in top 4, boosters were renewed quickly, and again, stats remained the same.
• And then again, before I went to sleep, somewhat half an hour later, all our stats were updated. Probably the snapshot was moved 1-2 hours? The 1st and 2nd player's booster bonuses now appeared to be finally applied correctly. The 2nd player had its team weaker, okay possible if really the snapshot was renewed, but still strange: Why did it become weaker while the colours did not change at all. But more importantly me and the last one became weaker as well. While on the last one's case, the team power and stats matched its battle page, in my case it did not: My team power whenever I battle an enemy is 135,833 which did not change during that whole time, as I did not change any gear, skills, team members, boosters or anything else. This can be also seen in the first two blocks (interestingly with one point less). My harmony interestingly was corrected (remember it was too low on the table before), and then AP a little increased but ego a little reduced, which is completely confusing nonsense and cannot be explained with any kind of booster switch or snapshot updated. Here my stats on battle pages which did not change through the whole time (but still with last two charges from AME AP bonus) :
  
  

So probably the following can be concluded (but would be good to have others verifying it):

• When opponent's boosters expire, their stats and whole snapshot are updated immediately, also effectively for your fight.
• When opponents however equip new boosters, their stats are NOT updated immediately, not even after the next (old) snapshot time, but at some point later, or the snapshot times did move forward?
• The own stats on the table do not contain the AME/LME bonus, so are likely what opponents see of you. They do of course not contain the playful defence penalty, as one cannot "select" an opponent anymore on the overview page. But also the other stats are wrong, especially ego, and also the defence does not seem to end up correct (I tried to calculate it in a previous post), and the harmony sometimes is wrong as well. And those differences cannot be explained with booster bonuses or earlier snapshots, they are too low and also qualitatively wrong in different directions, and also the team power is sometimes wrong, which is not effected by boosters at all. I am still thinking that GG is not always correctly applied for those stats.

And now today, after another league snapshot (should have just been, right?), where I replaced two more expired cordys with ginseng at 13:47 MET, so not sure whether before or after the reset, but I renewed them seconds after they expired:

• All completely wrong:
  • I did not change my team the whole time. I have no second rainbow team, so this also does not represent any counter team I might have been able to switch to (and I always immediately switch back after battles to the same rainbow team).
  • But the team power here was reduced again, along with all stats a little, but only harmony remained the same. This does not make any sense regarding the booster switch, which should have lead to a significant AP reduction but increasing all other stats, or, if the snapshot would have been taken during the few seconds before I added the two ginsengs, only AP should have been reduced and all other stats should have been the same.
  • That it is AP, ego and defence which are wrong, along with the team power, points into the direction of girls' gear not always being added correctly for your defensive stats. This is actually what @zoopokemon observed when GG was added the first time. But now it is somehow very inconsistent: Sometimes that stats are correct, sometimes they are not, sometimes without any change done.
  • Again, on the battle pages all is perfectly correct, so I assume that this time it affects only opponents attacking you (and the other way round).

This is all a big mess, and I wonder whether this snapshot thing still makes sense at all in combination with exact booster timers. Why not just loading opponents' live stats? The other way round, if the snapshots are still to be used, then the booster timers should be removed and simply those boosters shown which match the opponent's current snapshot. But the way it is now, those league "enhancements" actually lead to a lot of false decisions and create more damage than they help.

---------------------------

EDIT: Now with my last cordy being replaced:

• Stats were already wrong before (too low, but at least higher than after last snapshot), but the expiry of the last cordy lowered them again, back to what they were when the other two cordys expired around reset time. Again, team power (which is not affected by boosters) become lower, like shortly after last snapshot.
• Adding a new ginseng again did not raise my stats, just like before.
• The wrong stats follow a pattern, so it is not completely random: There is 130,216 team power right after a booster expired, the 131,362 after a while, and the correct 135,832/135,833, which I did not see again since yesterday night.
• To show what stats should be (keep in mind playful defence penalty, so this one is expected to be lower):
  
  
  As can be seen, exactly the same team, and here on the battle page everything is correct, and also the booster correctly increased all stats (while AP is lower after cordy and AME expiry, of course).

So I guess only the defensive team (which opponents see and effectively fight against) is affected by the problems, and it matches what you can observe on other opponents. So the tactic currently is:

• Watch out for opponents with missing or expired boosters, as both have their stats correctly reduced immediately. And on top of that, they can have additionally reduced their stats for a certain time, as some other (gear) bonuses are missing until next snapshot or some random time later.
• Watch out additionally for opponents which have just recently added new boosters, as their stats are not increased immediately. But I am not sure when exactly they are applied, at least not at the previous known snapshot times. So let's say within the last 3 hours before expected snapshot, when boosters are less than an hour old, the opponents stats are still effectively unboosted. Best to keep an eye on this to hopefully find some pattern, until it is fixed.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Horsting

[Shirow]

i have been playing this new thing for the last days and its stupid annoying.
i click on the order by levels, and when i get back to the screen after a fight it resets everything, so there i go again doing the same thing over and over again. the only good thing of all this redesign is..... battle 3 times in one click. that is all.
And before, i would just move the mouse cursor on the league icon and see where i was in the league. now I have to go through down the list to see where the hell I am.
As it was before, it was just fine. I see no better in anything in this. 
And quite frankly, having to redo constantly what before i did only once and it was "saved" on the options , its just time i am wasting before going to just fkin battle .
All this to say, 

maaaan,  this sucks, and cuts my bonery boned boner for battles in leagues. So much, i feel my spider-sense tingling "don't go there. don't go there. "

 

[Ravi-Sama]

Found an instance where I was waiting for a player's boosters to expire, and after they did, they still had the same stats as the previous snapshot, and the E[X] was lower than I expected (22.27 vs. 23+), so I was cautious, and didn't fight them.

I expect that if they don't replace their boosters before the next snapshot (in ~1 hr), then their stats should lower correctly.

Most of the time, pouncing on a recently un-boosted opponent has worked well for me, but if I notice that the E[X] is too low, then I'll double check their table stats, and wait for the next snapshot.  I'm using 4 cords, and an LM, so it's easier to spot when they appear un-boosted, but in reality aren't, b/c I expect a higher E[X].

@Horsting  I agree w/ you that the table stats are the snapshot stats, it's what other players see as your defense, and it probably ignores recruit equipment.  Even before this league redesign, I've seen multiple brackets where I had the highest TP, including players w/ better rank records than myself, which wouldn't make sense, unless their own RE boosts were ignored on defense.  I think it still works on offense though, so everyone has their own RE boosts when attacking, but not when defending.  Since defense doesn't matter anyway... meh.

[Horsting]

44 minutes ago, Ravi-Sama said:

I agree w/ you that the table stats are the snapshot stats, it's what other players see as your defense, and it probably ignores recruit equipment.

What bugs me is that expiry of boosters immediately updates the snapshot (at least in all cases I observed so far), while equipping new boosters does not. So basically everyone ends up unboosted for a while when boosters expire. And then, if snapshot times are like before (45-50 minutes after reset + x*6h), then also boosters equipped somewhere shortly before the snapshot (up to ~1h before) are not effective for the next snapshot either, but become effective a random time within the 2h after the snapshot. And then, while (some parts of) the GG is not effective right after a booster expired, it becomes effective at some random time the next hours, and even with at least two variances about which parts of the GG (just an assumption that it is GG) become effective.

I do not care that much whether it follows this or that logic, but currently it follows no logic at all but is very inconsistent with a bunch of randomness, as far as I could record. That is the major problem.

50 minutes ago, Ravi-Sama said:

I think it still works on offense though

The own stats are always correct for offence as far as I could see, but the opponents' stats are of course as relevant for your attacks. And if you cannot trust what you see, and there is no consistent rule about what is true when and how, then I have a problem.

52 minutes ago, Ravi-Sama said:

Since defense doesn't matter anyway...

Your own defensive stats probably do not matter so much, but the opponents' do. But I also want my defensive stats to be as good as possible: Whether my boosters are effectively applied when my opponents attack me decides about probably 10 points for each of them? And then the sometimes missing sometimes applied GG bonuses, probably 12 points in average? It won't be often, but there are head-on-head situations where also such small differences play a role. But more importantly: I do not want to feel more than necessary like cannon fodder for everyone else. As level 340 player in D3 I do already mostly feel like that, but at least I want give others the impression to be the one of the strongest level 340 player they ever fought in D3 😎.

[Ravi-Sama]

2 hours ago, Ravi-Sama said:

I expect that if they don't replace their boosters before the next snapshot (in ~1 hr), then their stats should lower correctly.

Alright, I waited until after the new snapshot, and this player's stats remained the same after applying new boosters about 25 min ago.  It's the same boosters too (2 cords, 1 gin, and 1 chlorella), just in a different order, which doesn't matter for stats, they're the same.  Their table/fight stats, w/ expired/new boosters remained the same (ignoring the defense reduction from my playful passive).

Either this player figured out a way to remain perma-boosted, or they equipped new boosters right after it expired, and it wasn't apparent until the next snapshot.

Before the league redesign, I probably would've just seen that they were boosted throughout, via the booster detector, and there wouldn't have been a false positive, that they might've been un-boosted. 

I do benefit from seeing the expiration, more often than not, but I think it's still up to the player's discretion, to decide whether to fight or not, which is probably a good thing.  Paying attention to stats/E[X] still matters.

P.S.: Did anyone notice the nipple pasties and cat ears, before I mentioned it?

Here, a different player was fought immediately after their boosters expired, b/c I noticed the E[X] jump from 23.12 to 24.12.

[Horsting]

27 minutes ago, Ravi-Sama said:

Either this player figured out a way to remain perma-boosted, or they equipped new boosters right after it expired, and it wasn't apparent until the next snapshot.

I am close to 100% sure that those are his unboosted stats: The stats dropped immediately when boosters expired, but did not raise up again when he equipped new boosters, also not when the new snapshot took place.

Can anyone confirm that the snapshots are really all updated 45 - 50 minutes after reset? I took a screenshot of the first part of the league at contest reset, so definitely before the expected snapshot time. Then I compared all visible player stats with those >1h after reset, and again just now, and all are still exactly the same. The only one which changed, was about 35 minutes after reset, where 1 of his 4 boosters expired (a chlorella), where his whole team changed: Ego was correctly reduced, but all stats + his team power and this overall power increased, together with all other stats.

So I am saying that all the time since the update I could not record any prove that 6h snapshots are still a thing, at least not at the previous times. Newly equipped boosters of myself (for my defensive stats) and opponents instead become effective at some random time, or the snapshot times changed (I did not try to find a pattern yet).

[Ravi-Sama]

6 minutes ago, Horsting said:

I am close to 100% sure that those are his unboosted stats: The stats dropped immediately when boosters expired, but did not raise up again when he equipped new boosters, also not when the new snapshot took place.

I suppose that's possible.  I'll check back later, after another snapshot if I'm not too busy.  I still think they were boosted, b/c I had a 23+ E[X] earlier which dropped to 22.27.

6 minutes ago, Horsting said:

Can anyone confirm that the snapshots are really all updated 45 - 50 minutes after reset?

It'll be most obvious tomorrow morning after reset, b/c of new blessing changes, you'll see everyone's team elements, and TP change, making it easy to conclude there was a snapshot.

I expect to see a lot of rare and playful teams (or at least a lot of 82% blessed Mavin) .  Physical ones too, to counter them.

[Horsting]

7 minutes ago, Ravi-Sama said:

It'll be most obvious tomorrow morning after reset

Right. Especially checking the opponents' individual girls blessing status on the battle page tell it undoubtedly.

[Ravi-Sama]

57 minutes ago, Ravi-Sama said:

I suppose that's possible.  I'll check back later, after another snapshot if I'm not too busy.  I still think they were boosted, b/c I had a 23+ E[X] earlier which dropped to 22.27.

Checked back just in case, to see if anything changed, before shutting the PC down.  Guess what?!

Their stats finally deflated, except it happened ~2 hrs after they applied the new boosters.

I attacked b/c the E[X] rose from 22.27 to 24.05, and got a 71 score (25, 25, & 21). 😊

You can see them boosted, red outline un-boosted (still boosted), and then boosted again (but actually un-boosted) in the screenshot.

I knew it was fishy to have 900k+ Ego, when you're supposedly un-boosted.

[Horsting]

Okay this adds another layer of randomness: While in my case, from what I could record, expiring boosters did always immediately take effect, in your particular shown case it did not. Instead, the opponent was effectively unboosted when boosters where shown active, and boosted when they expired. An with new boosters, the bonus disappeared (after a while). So basically the shown boosters mostly represented the opposite of what they were supposed to, right? 😂

But more:

• Did you recognise the lowered team power and also defence and harmony with a difference larger than one would expect from a single ginseng? GG (or something else) bonuses seem to have been effectively lost here as well.
• And between first and second state, while the (actually expired) cordys and chlorella seem to have taken effect, the ginseng did not, since defence and harmony remained exactly the same. The team power remained the same as well, so no chance that there was a coincidental overlap of GG bonuses being lost and ginseng becoming effective to weight out each other exactly regarding harmony and defence. So even between individual boosters, it behaves inconsistently 🙈.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Horsting

[Ravi-Sama]

Witnessed my own team's table info change about 43 min after server reset, so I assume that was when there was a global snapshot.  Individual players' table stats changed independently after that, Abe's TP & boosters updated to 202k TP ~71 min after server reset.

[Miccia]

I don't know about you, but at 2:55 pm I still see the opposing teams with the old girls and old blessings active.

[Ravi-Sama]

6 minutes ago, Miccia said:

I don't know about you, but at 2:55 pm I still see the opposing teams with the old girls and old blessings active.

I see at least 6 players using Mavin in playful teams, and she's blessed, when she wasn't before, so looks correct to me.  I haven't checked every player.  Abe's Mavin has 33.8k TP, and mine has 32.8k TP, but w/ girl skills.  I assume that Mavin has higher level/rarity RE.  Mine has lvl 4 commons.

 

Abe's (Left) & Mine (Right).

[Miccia]

The teams you see changed are probably the ones whose boosters expired after 1pm.
But if you look at the other teams they are the old ones and still have the old blessings active, like this screenshot I took now.

 

[holymolly]

old snap is still active indeed

[Lumpi46]

Sorting has been added to the leagues on testserver, but the boosters have disappeared:

[holymolly]

2 minutes ago, Lumpi46 said:

Sorting has been added to the leagues on testserver, but the boosters have disappeared:

give the players one thing take 2 away classic kk manner

prolly just the usual spaghetti

[Pelinor]

How long do I have to wait before my TEAM updates to show the team I have instead of one I don't? This is what is showing:

This is what should be showing:

When I do combat which team is doing the fighting?

(god, I hate this redesign more every time I play it)

 

[Ravi-Sama]

10 minutes ago, Pelinor said:

When I do combat which team is doing the fighting?

Should be whichever team you've switched to.  The table stats just display the most recent snapshot.

[bohammettuz]

32 minutes ago, Lumpi46 said:

Sorting has been added to the leagues on testserver, but the boosters have disappeared:

29 minutes ago, holymolly said:

give the players one thing take 2 away classic kk manner

prolly just the usual spaghetti

To be fair, taking away a broken feature and only putting it back once it's working better is something I would not consider a bad thing in general. And judging from this thread, booster displays are pretty broken.

Having faith in the second part (putting it back when working better) is a bit harder to have faith in when there are a lot of trust issues already.