[ August 2nd, 2023 ] Girl Skills 💡

[bohammettuz]

8 minutes ago, Horsting said:

I wonder how it can be tested: Boosters cannot be swapped, but one would need to assure to attack the exact same opponent with exact same stats 24h later, equipping one or more chlorella for one or more cordys, to have a precise comparison.

Attack just before your own boosters run out, equip the other boosters (and equipment swaps), and hit the same opponent again.

[Horsting]

38 minutes ago, bohammettuz said:

Attack just before your own boosters run out, equip the other boosters (and equipment swaps), and hit the same opponent again.

Great idea. As my little first test (see edit above) shows AP still stronger, now I need to be in mood to probably sacrifice some league points for this test 😄, but more importantly I'd need more cordys for this. I just equipped a fresh stack of ginseng, and tomorrow is mandatory 4 cordys for blessings reset. So I'd need another 3 cordys afterwards. No problem if I'd be able to participate in MDR (MPx1 orbs => cordys), but did not reach the Splatters Archipelago yet. Still have some orbs from Pantheon stage 1400 yesterday, probably I am lucky to get the 3 cordys tomorrow, when using the orbs during CbC. If so, I'll do a page 1 league snapshots with scores from Rena's simulator + the sums, once with 4 cordys, once with 3 cordys + 1 chlorella, which should give a very clear answer.

EDIT: Ahh, I'm dumb, I can at least show the sum with the level 1 mythic comparison already. So with a dark team to eliminate the harmony bonus:

• +0.1% ego => 6390.8 overall score
• +0.1% AP => 6391.2 overall score

Okay, the difference for the particular opponent (the first one) was larger than usual/average. AP seems still slightly ahead, but +0.1% might be simply too small with a 0.01 score precision, to show a real difference. The booster comparison should give a clearer answer.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Horsting

[DvDivXXX]

6 hours ago, Ravi-Sama said:

Shield is so awesome that switching teams to counter elements vs. weaker players doesn't really matter anymore, even if they have a sensual team.  At least it's not necessary, if I'll score 25s regardless.

I hear you, but is it overpowered awesome enough that it would be worth nerfing my two GS3 Aquarius bonuses from applying to 6 girls to only 5, as well as EITHER losing the double-blessed stats from one L5 (probably Rachael, if I swap her out for Taurus) OR losing an entire GS3 bonus (Purple Hair) that currently applies to my entire team (if I swap out Trixie instead to make room for Taurus)?

That's what I'm looking at with the current dot com blessings. Although I'm too short on Ymens and blessings change tomorrow anyway, so I won't invest more to find out today. I'll certainly give Shield a try for my new team tomorrow, though.

6 hours ago, Ravi-Sama said:

Not everyone reads the forums.  Consider yourselves the privileged elite, if you understand how skills work atm, read this comment, and decided to switch to shield.  I've only seen one or two players in my brackets actively using it, in a way that I'd consider a threat.

You're not wrong, but at the same time there are only a few dozen threats for D3 top 4 contenders, and most of them do read the forums and/or Discord. Hell, a lot of them are even mods or forum regulars. ^^

So while I wouldn't be too concerned about Gogeta or Random-Whale-666 stumbling upon this thread by chance, deciding to read it and switching to Shield because of us, I'm fully aware that most things we share here or on Discord almost instantly become common knowledge for most of the players I'm typically struggling against in league on a regular basis. Although the reverse is true as well. What I know, they know, but what they know, I know too.

I'm a tidbit paranoid about the monkey see, monkey do effect in the game itself, though. That's why I've been actively hiding my real team in game especially once I'm at a high rank and thus extremely visible for all my current group's opponents, not just the ones that are already savvy on all this. People with strong accounts don't need to read or understand the building process behind Govs' team or yours or mine to copy-paste it if they notice we're crushing it with said team. And then we might inadvertently create more monsters. I think it's more likely to spread that way sooner or later. 

-------

In other news, after watching dozens of fights in slo-mo, I can confirm that they currently typically last 3 rounds, sometimes only 2 if I crit right away, sometimes 4 but virtually never 5 or longer. That's with 2gin/2co, and I seem to fairly often win on turn 3 only because I left my opponent with like 10k HP or less on turn 2 (I see quite a lot of "-177k HP" on the opponent after my last hit). So I would very likely wrap up a lot more fights one turn earlier with even 1 more cordy.

This further explains why Reflect was so bad for me, since it shortened my fights by about 1 round, and since it's a guaranteed proc on turn 1, winning from the reflected damage on my opponent's turn in round 2 meant winning before getting a chance to  heal at all. If they crit even once, this is a surefire way to turn a 25 pts win into 24 or even 23.

As for Stun, it's awesome if and only if it procs on one of my first 2 turns. This happens fairly often, to be fair, but I've also seen plenty of fights where it procs in the background after "You Won!" already appeared. And of course a fair bit of fights in which it never had the time to proc at all. It actually seems to be working as intended, from what I've observed, it's just ridiculously RNG-dependent by design.

Bottom line, I likely won't bother with Stun either moving forward.

With such short fights, I'm now wondering if perhaps Execute might be a lot more useful in my situation (and it's reliable contrary to Stun), since it would end all those fights where my opponent's HP bar is barely visible one turn earlier, and on my own turn so with LifeSteal, without costing me an extra cordy a day.

I'll still go for Shield starting tomorrow, but I'd also be curious to see how Execute performs.

Edited September 24, 2023 by DvDivXXX
updated

[renalove]

To be honest, I don't think most players understand shield skill mathematically. In league battles, you get points based on your remaining ego if you defeat your opponent. If your ego is over 90%, you get 25 points. If your ego is between 80% and 90%, you get 24 points. To get 25 points, you need to keep reduction of your ego below 10% of your max ego.

Level 5 shield gives you 40% bonus. To get 25 points, you only need to keep reduction of your ego and shield below 50% of your max ego. The difference between 10% and 50% is 5 times. This is better than defeating your opponent one turn earlier and reducing the number of times you are attacked from 2 to 1. It is also better than using stun to skip two your opponent turns and reducing the number of times you are attacked from 3 to 1.

Shield gives +40% bonus only for 16 points or less. It gives +50% bonus for 18 points, +100% for 22 points, +200% for 24 points, and +400% for 25 points. This is a mathematical feature of shield.

	Reduction of ego (and shield)
Points	No shield	Level 5 shield	The difference
25	below 10%	below 50%	+400% (50% / 10% = 5)
24	below 20%	below 60%	+200% (60% / 20% = 3)
23	below 30%	below 70%	+133% (70% / 30% = 2.33)
22	below 40%	below 80%	+100% (80% / 40% = 2)
21	below 50%	below 90%	+80% (90% / 50% = 1.8)
20	below 60%	below 100%	+67% (100% / 60% = 1.67)
19	below 70%	below 110%	+57% (110% / 70% = 1.57)
18	below 80%	below 120%	+50% (120% / 80% = 1.5)
17	below 90%	below 130%	+44% (130% / 90% = 1.44)
16	below 100%	below 140%	+40% (140% / 100% = 1.4)

[Tom208]

I wonder if KK made the same analysis when they developed these skills?

 

 

Of course not, obviously 🤪

[Antimon]

20 minuti fa, Tom208 ha scritto:

I wonder if KK made the same analysis when they developed these skills?

Imagine that 🤣

[Horsting]

1 hour ago, renalove said:

The difference between 10% and 50% is 5 times. This is better than defeating your opponent one turn earlier and reducing the number of times you are attacked from 2 to 1. It is also better than using stun to skip two your opponent turns and reducing the number of times you are attacked from 3 to 1.

Not unconditionally true: It depends on how much damage your opponent does in these 1-2 attacks you could otherwise prevent. If it is more than those 40% ego shield, than it is better than the shield. However, of course in average league battles, those 40% are more like min 4 opponent attacks.

If KK did any balancing analysis, then they did not consider league, but just a BSDM fight between two equal opponents where win/loose matters, not remaining ego. In this case, e.g. shield and execute are very well balanced, both give mathematically an as equal benefit as you can get with integer percentages. And it is at least also close to the other two skills with 5/6 rounds per fight. But this is no excuse, since league is the most important BSDM content, so if anything must be taken as reference for balancing, then the league, and everything else (Pantheon and especially seasons) can come afterwards.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Horsting

[Pelinor]

WTH? Do the girl skills really add over 25% to ATK? How is my level 750 Mythic Esme showing over 5,000 points less than my opponents level 750 Mythic Esme on attack?

[Horsting]

Because you opponent's Esme is still blessed and your's is not anymore?

Skilled vs unskilled level 700 L5 is 18,585 vs 17,500, with the difference becoming only slightly more with M6 and level 750. Or what you mean with ATK/attack (as girls do not have AP, only teams do)?

[Pelinor]

7 minutes ago, Horsting said:

Because you opponent's Esme is still blessed and your's is not anymore?

Skilled vs unskilled level 700 L5 is 18,585 vs 17,500, with the difference becoming only slightly more with M6 and level 750. Or what you mean with ATK/attack (as girls do not have AP, only teams do)?

Okay... A couple of questions arise from your answer. First, when does the game update the blessing stats for everyone so we see what we are facing as apples to apples instead of what used to be? Second, I am speaking of the numbers that go into Power rankings (here is a screenshot).

Do these numbers no longer matter when computing a win/loss? I think they do so they count towards my character's Attack/Defense value. Am I wrong?

[bolitho76]

The times for the regular snapshots changed with the League rework some times ago. Should be something between 2 and 3 hours after reset that the regular snapshot will be done. Updating the League was between 9:00 and 10:00 am server time and with the end of the update and the "restart" of the Leagues the game snapshotted. So the snapshots between 3:00 and 4:00 pm, 9:00 and 10:00 pm, 3:00 and 4:00 am and 9:00 and 10:00 am.

Edited September 25, 2023 by bolitho76

[Pelinor]

23 hours ago, bolitho76 said:

So the snapshots between 3:00 and 4:00 pm, 9:00 and 10:00 pm, 3:00 and 4:00 am and 9:00 and 10:00 am.

Thank you. So when it comes to whether or not I take the "Star Trek" teaching machine away from one girl and give it to another girl, I should wait to see what the actual results will be before spending Yemen to make the disconnect and reconnect for skills, right?

Edited September 26, 2023 by Pelinor
added pic from "Spock's Brain" for those too young to remember.

[Horsting]

More precisely, new snapshot times are 9:50/15:50/21:50/03:50 MET +-3 minutes. And individual opponent snapshots are additionally updated if any of their booster expires. Since usually also opponents' girls' skills and possibly even girls' gear (it was like that) bonuses are lost as well if any booster expires, until next snaphot, this is an additionally valuable time window to attack.

1 hour ago, Pelinor said:

Do these numbers no longer matter when computing a win/loss? I think they do so they count towards my character's Attack/Defense value. Am I wrong?

Jep all correct, they do count as before, and as of the green colourised values (and that they are so much higher) of your opponent, indeed its Esme is still blessed.

46 minutes ago, Pelinor said:

Thank you. So when it comes to whether or not I take the "Star Trek" teaching machine away from one girl and give it to another girl, I should wait to see what the actual results will be before spending Yemen to make the disconnect and reconnect for skills, right?

Usually a stronger team remains stronger, regardless whether an opponent has still old blessings, new blessings, is boosted or not and has GS or not, isn't it? But yeah, to be very sure, pick an opponent which is in a state where you would anyway attack it, i.e. unboosted, at best unskilled (as of an expired booster) and with current blessings. Or better, use Rena's battle simulator to compare the overall simulation sum, so you have a large sample, even that many are boosted. At least this is how I compare girls and gear currently.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Horsting

[Horsting]

I hope the double post is okay, as it is a different topic: I did a comparison between 4x cordy and 3x cordy + 1x chlorella with shield, using Rena's battle simulator for the sum over all opponents. To my surprise the difference is minimal, which surprises me quite much. I want to compare with 2x chlorella in another opportunity as I guess it becomes weaker the more ego you do already have, respectively that AP becomes relatively weaker the more bonus you already have. Sadly no screenshot, as I needed to do this on mobile early in the morning:

• 4x cordy: 7323.3 points, 23.93 average
• 3x cordy + 1x chlorella: 7322.3 points, 23.92 average

But this means that one could safe 1 cordy for a close to best boost to save some kobans or have these boosters active a little more often.

I hope that there are no more game bugs which e.g. affect your or opponents' stats when YOUR boosters expire. I noted the sums down about half a minute before and after my booster expiry, so unlikely that a significant amount (or any) of opponents lost their boosters as well in this time window. But would be great to have this verified by others, and probably in other ways where one can switch between AP and ego bonuses.

Also interesting would then be ginseng vs chlorella, which should, if above is generally true, end with chlorella being better. Hence the "weak" booster setup needs to change when using the shield skill. Will do this comparison next when there are 2 days where I cannot/do not want to use cordys.

[Ravi-Sama]

I brainstormed a dozen teams w/ 6-7 girls matching their tier 3 skills.  There's a few for each attribute type (3 Zodiacs, 3 Poses, 3 Hair colors, & 3 Eye colors).

They aren't perfect.  It's nice to have some ideals to work towards.  Only Gemini has 6 girls instead of 7, but it's relevant atm.  I'm using a variant of the Doggie Style team atm, w/ a 19% atk boost, since it can be made w/ lower rarity girls, which is more practical.

Virgo and Blue Eyes, are the teams I look forward to actually completing.

Black hair and Purple Eyes are two teams I wasn't really aware of before.

Maybe this'll provide some inspiration, to discover more teams.  The highest atk bonus I could envision was 42%, which ends up being higher if using Doms, like in the blue eyed team.

It also helps to know the bulb requirements for a particular rarity and tier.

[HentaiGuru]

Taurus team need 15k kobans for completion atm 😧 May be we have Hayden for some reasonable amount in future revival events...

Also red-haired hotties for your pleasure

[Attirm]

I'm still a long ways off on my team completion:

• Royal Housemaid (temporary) 19/31
• Alluza (Stun) 27/27
• Miley (Shield) 17/27
• Leona 0/24
• Dayan 0/24
• LanaLana 0/24
• Eliana 0/24
• Mizuki (alternative) 0/24
• Metal Noemy (temporary) 21/21
• Noemy (temporary) 18/18
• Solvieg (temporary) 18/18

Everyone has blue eyes, and aside from housemaid everyone has blond hair, and everyone has either blond hair or blue eyes skill. I do intend to replace Housemaid eventually since her hair doesn't match, but right now she's the best mythic for the team since she has blue eyes skill. 

I don't have LanaLana up to 750 yet, since she only just released, but I'll have her to level 750 long before I've got the bulbs lined up anyways. 

[Ravi-Sama]

17 hours ago, Attirm said:

Everyone has blue eyes, and aside from housemaid everyone has blond hair, and everyone has either blond hair or blue eyes skill.

There's some overlap here, but I think what really matters is if their tier 3's match, otherwise you're not getting the full atk boost.  I'd advise working towards just one trait at first.  Pick 7 blue eyed (Dom/Ecc) girls, or blond haired (Exh/Sub).  Out of curiosity, I double checked their actual tier 3 traits.  6 of them boost blue eyes, and 5 boost blonde hair. 

I have an example of a full Dom, blue eyed team below.  They'd have the highest atk in the game.  Also, definitely choose at least 1 mythic girl, as an anchor, since they're tier 5 skill would be the strongest.

18 hours ago, HentaiGuru said:

Also red-haired hotties for your pleasure

Thanks, I double checked red hair.  It's definitely viable, but I'd consider it the weaker hair color, compared to pink, black, and blonde.  They have a lower 125.8k TP, and a lower 37.8% atk boost.  That could change a little if the player had Captain Piper, but since she was the last girl in an SE, I doubt anyone does.  It makes use of rare and common bulbs, like a doggie style team, which is nice early on.  I have all of the red haired 5-6 star girls, except C Piper, so I might use this team one day.  I like H Venus' shield, and the team has many exhibitionists for an HP boost.  I have 68 legendary bulbs total atm, which is just almost enough for 3 L5s, if I wasn't using one of their tier 5 skills.

[Attirm]

5 hours ago, Ravi-Sama said:

There's some overlap here, but I think what really matters is if their tier 3's match, otherwise you're not getting the full atk boost. 

Why wouldn't I get the full bonus? Let's set aside Housemaid for a moment (which I acknowledge does break the blond hair bonus) and just look at Miley, Alluza, Leona, Dayan, LanaLana, Eliana, and Mizuki.

• Miley, Dayan, LanaLana, Eliana, and Mizuki gets +0.8% attack power per girl with blond hair. There are 7 blond-haired girls giving +5.6% attack power each.
• Alluza and Leona get +0.8% attack power per girl with blue eyes. There are 7 blue-eyed girls giving +5.6% attack power each.

Where am I losing power? Is there some weird way this stacks?

5 hours ago, Ravi-Sama said:

Also, definitely choose at least 1 mythic girl, as an anchor, since they're tier 5 skill would be the strongest.

Yeah, that's why I'm working on Housemaid even though her hair doesn't match the lineup. My options for Stun or Shield are Venus, Moe Bunny, Bunna, or Housemaid. I don't have the right Red-haired L5's to run Venus, there aren't enough L5 girls with the Column Pose skill or Grey hair skill to build around Bunny or Bunna, so that leaves Housemaid as my only option if I want one of the better skills. I could run a Green-eyed team with Radka, but that would mean running Execute as my level 5. Fine for Pantheon, but as was discussed at great detail over the last few pages definitely not the best choice in leagues.

I acknowledge I'm losing out on a 3.2% power boost due to Housemaid lacking Blond hair, so the Blond hair skill girls will only be getting 6/7 boosts. However, the advantage here is that it leaves me in a position where I'm very close to running balance and I can adjust the team if needed to avoid unfavorable elemental matchups. I think the 3.2% power is an acceptable tradeoff for elemental flexibility. 

Now, I could run a pure Blue-eyed team with Housemaid, Alluza, Ellie, Leona, Lucia, Shegobora, and Felicitas (for the record, I don't have Bright Agate or Adventurous Bonny so your pure Dominatrix team is not an option for me). However, this would lock me into Black/Red which would mean I'd be countered by Blue and Purple, and Blue is a very popular color in leagues. 

Edit: I was going to add that I have 2 Balance theme resonances from my hero equipment, but checking my collected equipment I have three options for Eccentric theme resonance. So I guess that factor would actually weigh in favor of going for the pure Blue eyed build.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Attirm

[Horsting]

23 hours ago, Ravi-Sama said:

There's some overlap here, but I think what really matters is if their tier 3's match, otherwise you're not getting the full atk boost.  I'd advise working towards just one trait at first.  Pick 7 blue eyed (Dom/Ecc) girls, or blond haired (Exh/Sub).  Out of curiosity, I double checked their actual tier 3 traits.  6 of them boost blue eyes, and 5 boost blonde hair.

But if all girls have either of both traits and fulfil both traits, you do get the full AP bonus, i.e. whenever skipping Royal Housemaid (as she has no blond hair, at least not every single one of Noemy's maids). That allows you to have more element variation in your team, e.g. having a submissive one for the OP shield skill, where also exhibitionist girls have some synergy with, at least are better then eccentric ones anyway. A mostly dom with some red team is surely good as well, for maxing out AP beyond GS3, but I think overall a mix might be better, considering GS5 as well. And I have such a feeling that blue eyes + blond hair is really the only combination which allows this, while still keeping full GS3 AP bonus (just without any M6, sadly).

... lol answering before reading @Attirm reply. Right, that a full dom/ecc team makes you vulnerable for counter teams is another good point to at least not have this as defensive team.

17 hours ago, Attirm said:

but checking my collected equipment I have three options for Eccentric theme resonance

Really, ignore the element resonance completely. +X% defence is very weak compared to +X% ego and of course +X% AP. Trying to match the element only bears the risk that you weaken the team with a different girls' choice. Of course if you have the possibility to equip girls with matching element without loosing any other resonance bonus, do it, but do not let the element resonance bonus change any other decision.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Horsting

[Horsting]

Sorry for double-post, but different topic: The continuation of my Ginseng vs Chlorella tests with shield skill, using Rena's simulator for the overall league simulation sum:

• 3x Ginseng + 1x Chlorella: 6965.8 points
• 2x Ginseng + 2x Chlorella: 6984.8 points

So another Chlorella is still better, but the difference became smaller: >30 from 0 to 1 Chlorella vs <20 from 1 to 2. So there is some scaling effect. Tomorrow its time for Cordyceps, if my MPx1 drops permit, hence continuing Cordyceps vs Chlorella comparison with 3x Cordyceps + 1x Chlorella vs 2x Cordyceps vs 2x Chlorella. The first Chlorella was weaker, but just a tiny little bit. We'll see whether the second one makes a larger difference as of scaling effects. Even saving 1 Cordy for 1 cheap Chlorella without a significant downside is great already.

____________

And another topic: I did observe GS of my defensive team around reboost and snapshot times:

• My boosters expired in the morning, and as expected (just noting here that it is completely embarrassing and absolutely not understandable that it is that way for weeks/months), my girls seem to have lost all skills. I managed to reboost sufficiently quickly so all new boosters were effective immediately (again embarrassing that otherwise the booster indicator is useless since months).
• Soon after, the new snapshot was coming. My boosters remained effective, and my girls seem to gained back their skills, BUT, my team power and stats dropped. Looking closer into it: The attributes of the individual girls dropped, hence it is not some resonance bonus (whether hero or girls' gear), but either the flat GG attributes or GS not being effective for their attributes:
  
   
  • I have not counted it exactly, but those ~500*3*7=10,500 attributes=TP difference seems to match quite well the 142k vs 153k TP difference between defensive (left) and offensive (right) team.
  • I was wondering whether this is due to GS or GG. Bunna's gear gives her 78+180+78+78+78+78=570 to all attributes. If those were missing, she should have 11,765.1 HC, which is more than she actually has, so I think GG is not the problem.
  • The GS2 gives her +5% HC and +350 CH/KH. If fully applied, it would be 11195.1*1.05=11754.9 HC, again more, but we know that some relative bonuses (GS) are only partly applied to other flat bonuses (GG). Probably someone knows the exact formula. For CH/KH the difference is however larger than 350, which is strange, since there is no relative bonus for secondary girl attributes, AFAIK. This difference is neither match the 570 from GG, nor the 350 from GS, not the sum of both. So for those I have zero idea how any bug could lead to this result.
• Just now, next snaphot went through, and my defensive stats have no normalised. At at this points it looks like girl stats are correct only after boosters expire until next snapshot, BUT in this period boosters are not effective unless reboosted very quickly, and GS4+GS5 are definitely ineffective until next snapshot.
• The code which causes this must be a real horror show, that's for sure ... I feel like I need to open a new bug report to sum up all those major league (related to GS and GG) bugs, which basically break vast parts of all these shiny new features added the last months 😞🤮 ...

[Tom208]

il y a une heure, Horsting a dit :

At at this points it looks like girl stats are correct only after boosters expire until next snapshot

Actually, it's the exact opposite: team power is very wrong when boosters expire due to a bug relative to girls equipments.

We could summarize bugs feeling when boosters expire by that:

[Horsting]

13 minutes ago, Tom208 said:

Actually, it's the exact opposite: team power is very wrong when boosters expire due to a bug relative to girls equipments.

It might be sometimes like this and sometimes the other way round, but in my case, the team power matched exactly between offensive and defensive team after my boosters expired (despite none of the girls showed any skill, so even a bug in the bug) and dropped to the lower values after the snapshot. This matches the observation of many others, that TP+stats raise when boosters expire, at least those not (sufficiently) affected by the boosters.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Horsting

[Ravi-Sama]

Discovered a balanced 69/Blue Eyed team.  It has 1 M6, 4 L5s, a C5 & an S5, so it might actually be possible soon.  I'd prefer a balanced team if I can, since I have 5 CH Atk balanced gear now.  Downside is that it doesn't have a shield bearer.  I like that it has 2 Doms and 2 Sensuals in the team.

This other balanced team w/ both Blue Eyes and Hair, is stronger, and has 10 viable girls in its pool, so it's more flexible.  They were difficult to identify, b/c many have dual attributes.  Forced to replace 2 Doms w/ 2 Eccentrics if you do want it balanced, but could also just use the 4 Doms for more firepower.  R5 Squishy can replace an L5 early on, to reduce L5 bulb requirements.  This team is pretty strong in both TP and the Atk boost, but requires more legendary bulbs, and also doesn't have a shield bearer.  I suppose you could use L5 Capricorn for a 32% shield, instead of 40%.

[EpicBacon]

I made this comment some years ago when they made changes to the girls and team setups.
It seems like nothing much has changed

Edited October 1, 2023 by EpicBacon
grammar