[ August 2nd, 2023 ] Girl Skills 💡

[DvDivXXX]

EDIT: Thanks for the update, the image is clean now, @Ravi-Sama.

I see where you're coming from, except that I would disagree on exactly half of your distribution.

1. Stun is more of a defensive skill than an offensive one.
    
2. Reflect is strictly an offensive skill. Unless it also blocks the damage that it "reflects", in which case it's just the GOAT of GS 5, period (it would basically combined Stun and Execute two in one).

By the way, speaking of Reflect: do we get LifeSteal on the 80% extra attack when this triggers or not?

I'm also testing this particular skill right now (in my case it was either that or Shield, which seems like weakest link of the 4 skills by far), but it isn't easy to figure out and I don't have much time to watch fights in slow-mo right now. Plus I'm only trying it out in Seasons as my League is already done.

I really hope that my own personal @Stoned Jesus ^^ is also done with his fights for the week, by the way, otherwise one of us getting to finish the duel with this brand-new weapon will fuck up the balance and fairness of the whole thing quite a bit (and I also hope no other potential contender will go crazy on us with this thing and attempt a last-minute 750+ point jump).

Edited September 13, 2023 by DvDivXXX
updated

[Ravi-Sama]

3 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

I can't see your image.

I see where you're coming from, except that I would disagree on exactly half of your distribution.

1. Stun is more of a defensive skill than an offensive one.
    
2. Reflect is strictly an offensive skill. Unless it also blocks the damage that it "reflects", in which case it's just the GOAT of GS 5, period (it would basically combined Stun and Execute two in one).

By the way, speaking of Reflect: do we get LifeSteal on the 80% extra attack when this triggers or not?

I'm also testing this particular skill right now (in my case it was either that or Shield, which seems like weakest link of the 4 skills by far), but it isn't easy to figure out and I don't have much time to watch fights in slow-mo right now. Plus I'm only trying it out in Seasons as my League is already done.

I really hope that my stoned rival @Stoned Jesus is also done with his fights for the week, by the way, otherwise one of us getting to finish the duel with this brand-new weapon will fuck up the balance and fairness of the whole thing quite a bit (and I also hope no other potential contender will go crazy on us with this thing and attempt a last-minute 750+ point jump).

Refresh to see the images.  They're just tables.

I consider stun/execute offensive, b/c they take effect on the opponent.  The right side of the screen.

Shield/Reflect is defensive, b/c they're visible on the player.  The left side of the screen.

I didn't see the player heal from the reflect dmg.  The opponent still healed from their atk, but I took 80% less dmg twice.

[Antimon]

1 ora fa, Ravi-Sama ha scritto:

Mods knew about this tier 5 stuff, since girl skills were added.  The developers were testing and fine tuning it until now.  Didn't see anything about a tier 6.

Tier V skills weren't exactly a "mods secret", since they were inside the ingame info panel of the skill feature when this yet another layer of nightmarish micromanagement extravaganza was still confined in the test server, and it stayed there when the feature came alive.

that said, about tier 6  skills, the original patch note does say that  "more tiers are to come"

[Ravi-Sama]

9 minutes ago, Antimon said:

Tier V skills weren't exactly a "mods secret", since they were inside the ingame info panel of the skill feature when this yet another layer of nightmarish micromanagement extravaganza was still confined in the test server, and it stayed there when the feature came alive.

that said, about tier 6  skills, the original patch note does say that  "more tiers are to come"

Tier 5 is the "more to come."  That snippet at the end actually explained tier 5 afterwards, but it was cut out of the patch notes that were released, since it wasn't finished yet, but mods got to read it all.

We knew the effects of tier 5, and the percentages.

There's no tier 6.

[Master-17]

7 minutes ago, Antimon said:

about tier 6  skills, the original patch note does say that  "more tiers are to come"

😭😭😭

[Horsting]

Okay, the patch notes were very helpful. Further thoughts:

• Of course one should aim to have a mythic with maxed GS5 in the middle position. But given the fact that most of us have at best one mythic with maxed GS4, this is quite unrealistic, unless one resets the skilled mythic every week. However, I'm doing some math now based on a maxed GS5 mythic.
• Stun: Practically it is the same as shortening the fight by 2 rounds, if it triggers before the second last opponent attack, or by 1 round, if it triggers before the opponents last attack, regarding your remaining HP => league points. Assuming 6 rounds and hence 5 opponent attacks (is this actually a good assumption for an average?), the chances for the stun to trigger are:
  • 35% on 1st round
  • 0.65*0.35=22.75% on 2nd round
  • 0.65^2*0.35=14.79% on 3rd round
  • 0.65^3*0.35=9.61% on 4th round
  • 0.65^4*0.35=6.25% on 5th round
  • 0.65^5=11.60% that it triggers too late or not at all
  • Sum: 35+22.75+14.79+9.61+6.25+11.60=100, okay that test matches
  • So one has a chance for 35%+22.75%+14.79%+9.61%=82.15% to increase ones remaining HP by 2 attacks, 6.25% to increase it by 1 attack and 11.6% chance to have no benefit at all.
  • In average this means 0.8215*2+0.0625=1.7055 rounds of opponent attacks more remaining HP
• Reflect: The patch notes actually explain it better than the ingame tooltip: As the skill triggers (with 100%) on 1st round, it is the first two attacks of the opponent being reflected, completely with a maxed GS5 mythic. If your opponent did the same average damage than you, this would be better than stun. But of course the opponent has no AM/LM booster active, and in most cases no other boosters as well, if one actively observes the league and fights most opponents unboosted. Not sure how much damage difference the average boosters do. I mean I also cannot keep up an AM/LM and 4 cordys 24/7, but usually only once around league reset and once around blessings reset, i.e. 2/7 days cordys, otherwise ginseng, and and AM (from CbC) probably hold for 1.5 days. As I equip those with condoms storage nearly full (and kiss storage empty), and empty comdoms storage before cordys expire + together with AM charges, it is probably around 30% of fights with 4 cordys (otherwise ginseng) and 50% of fights with AM bonus. No idea how much difference in damage this is, compared to an average unboosted opponent. Just assuming 20%, then the skill in average reduces the rounds and hence number of opponent attacks by 1.6, which makes it a little weaker than stun, for an enthusiastic league participant, but probably the better choice when not selecting opponents in league by booster state.
  EDIT3: 

  1 hour ago, Ravi-Sama said:

  I didn't see the player heal from the reflect dmg.  The opponent still healed from their atk, but I took 80% less dmg twice.

  Oh, I was not thinking that not only the opponent gets his own damage twice, but that you do also not get any damage for 2 rounds (with a maxed mythic at least). This boosts the value of this skill dramatically of course, i.e. the assumed less average effective opponent attacks from 1.6 to 3.6! This of course makes this skill equal or better than shield.

• Execute: If one reduces the opponent's ego by 18% per round in average (this would be a finish in 6 rounds), then the opponent is at 28% after 4 attacks, i.e. 2 opponent attacks less. But this is close, so if this was the average, one will, depending on damage range (crit chance and crit damage) more often end with opponent above 30% after 4 attacks, then with opponent below 30% after 3 attacks, i.e. the average wouldn't be at 2 less opponent attacks but somewhere lower. Actually I think, the average fight is lower. With 20% average ego reduction, we would land equally distant around 30% after 3 and 4 rounds, so then an average reduced 2 opponent attacks wouldn't be a bad assumption, which made this the strongest skill so far.
• Shield: 40% ego above max, which does not count for league points, so when e.g. assuming that the opponent reduces your original max ego by 20% per round in average, then two attacks would not count, which made this equally value than the execute skill. But for the comparison I did assume max 20% average damage for ourselves, even less by assuming 6 rounds, and that we win, hence the opponent does less damage, has usually no AP boosters etc. Even I have an average score of above 20, around 20.5 last two weeks, 21.67 currently. Just for myself, when expecting an average of 21 points, the average enemy did max do 50% damage, i.e. 10% per round in average when assuming it was 5 attacks. So those 40% would then eliminate 4 attacks for league score, which made this with large distance the best skill.
  EDIT2: Okay did it, and did a fights against a much stronger, but unboosted opponent, with originally 79% win chance and 16.9 expected points. I did get exactly 40% extra ego after my first attack, so my current 4 ginseng boosters and GG ego bonuses do fully for this skill as well. I was pretty unlucky in the fight, with 0 vs 2 crits, and would have lost if without the 40% bonus. My remaining HP were at 32% and indeed I got the 19 points for it. I forgot to count, but I think the opponent did 6 attacks. With one crit my end it would have been 5 only. I.e. against a strong opponent, the 6 rounds/5 opponent attacks are probably a good assumption, but in average I think it is less. Finished all 3 fights, pretty unlucky with a single crit in all of them only, still winning all of them with an average of 19.34 points, i.e. 2.5 points above expected value. With an average crit luck it would have been at least 3 points more, i.e. quite in range of the expected 4 times 10% attacks, if that opponent was not that strong (far above the average I fought against this league). Still thinking that this is the best skill for leagues.

So I will give Bunna the shot and watch some fights. Above thoughts/math is surely inaccurate, not best assumptions, probably broken logic or false understanding at some point, so take with care. And please tell me if there is clearly something wrong.

EDIT1: Btw, not sure whether "defensive" vs "offensive" classification help in any way. Offence is (the best) defence as well, as the opponent is defeated faster, hence has less rounds to do damage. So the goal for comparison above is to compare the skills at the same resulting outcome, which I took the average rounds for the opponent is not able to do, or which do not count for league points (because they are taken by the shield). If there is a reason to classify the skills, then better would be to put stun and shield into the same group, as both do not reduce the duration of the fight, while execute and reflect both reduce the duration of the fight. I am not sure whether this is an important difference, but the amount of rounds and attacks being done is important elsewhere when e.g. comparing the value of (absolute) ego against AP and defence etc.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Horsting

[Ravi-Sama]

1 hour ago, Horsting said:

the chances for the stun to trigger are:

• 35% on 1st round
• 0.65*0.35=22.75% on 2nd round
• 0.65^2*0.35=14.79% on 3rd round
• 0.65^3*0.35=9.61% on 4th round
• 0.65^4*0.35=6.25% on 5th round
• 0.65^5=11.60% that it triggers too late or not at all
• Sum: 35+22.75+14.79+9.61+6.25+11.60=100, okay that test matches
• So one has a chance for 35%+22.75%+14.79%+9.61%=82.15% to increase ones remaining HP by 2 attacks, 6.25% to increase it by 1 attack and 11.6% chance to have no benefit at all.
• In average this means 0.8215*2+0.0625=1.7055 rounds of opponent attacks more remaining HP

 

Stun probability per turn, w/ an M6, is like this:

I think stun is probably one of the the best tier 5 skills, b/c it's the only one that can prevent the enemy's skill from triggering, on top of not taking dmg for 2 turns.  It's similar to reflect in that way, except the enemy also takes their own dmg, which makes reflect better imo.  Shield is less effective if the opponent crits, so not as good as completely ignoring 2 turns.  We don't know how execute actually works yet, so I'd rank it at the bottom.

This is how I'd rank them atm.

1. Reflect - No dmg for 2 turns, plus the opponent takes their own dmg.  Super sweet.
2. Stun - Higher chance to trigger, and negates enemy skill for 2 turns, but opponent doesn't take extra dmg like reflect.  The more turns, the higher the player's atk by the end, but reflect would end it sooner.
3. Shield - Extra HP, which can help defend against an execution, but how often do you even lose in leagues?  Should make scores higher on avg in leagues, but not as good as preventing dmg altogether for 2 turns, since it can be destroyed.
4. Execute - Not sure how it works, if it can trigger sooner, and work later, or not.  Seems to matter later in the fight, when the opponent has less than 30% HP.  By then, I'd rather have negated 2 full turns of dmg, so even if it worked 100%, I'd rank it lowest for now.  It's just like 1 crit.

Have to test them all, but I like reflect and stun the most so far.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Ravi-Sama

[EpicBacon]

2 hours ago, Ravi-Sama said:

Each player can only have 1 skill for their team.  It's the girl in the middle.I

Yeah I had to read over the patch notes a couple more times.
Seems less broken then if you could have 7 girls, but depending on the skill
this will probably still be impactful

[Horsting]

44 minutes ago, Ravi-Sama said:

Stun probability per turn, w/ an M6, is like this:

Just a note that this is the accumulated chance, i.e. 58% (rounded) that stun is triggered until the 2nd round, compared to my list with 22.75% that it triggers exactly at the 2nd round, which sums up to (rounded) 58% as well with the 35% chance in 1st round. Generally the important thing here is that one does not always fully benefit from the stun skill, as it has only a chance to happen, while all other skills trigger with 100% chance. And the shorter the fight is, the less the chance that you do benefit from the skill, and the higher the chance that if you do, you only benefit 1 round from it (when it triggers before last opponent attack).

44 minutes ago, Ravi-Sama said:

I think stun is probably one of the the best tier 5 skills, b/c it's the only one that can prevent the enemy's skill from triggering, on top of not taking dmg for 2 turns.  It's similar to reflect in that way, except the enemy also takes their own dmg, which makes reflect better imo.

I think stun is the weakest. As you said, reflect is similar, but additionally the enemy takes the damage, which kind-off doubles its value. And additionally, reflect always triggers on the first two rounds, hence in that way is as effective as possible, while stun can trigger in later rounds, where it can have less value (only 1 round stun) or not trigger at all. So that one IMO is clearly underpowered, by far.

Not sure why you rate shield so weak? 40% ego is definitely more than an average enemy deals in 2 rounds, isn't it? And again, this skill always triggers, while stun has only a chance to reduce the opponents damage by 2 rounds, so IMO without doubt my end, shield is much better than stun.

44 minutes ago, Ravi-Sama said:

Execute - Not sure how it works, if it can trigger sooner, and work later, or not.

I am 99% sure, also since the patch notes say "The skills trigger every turn at the end of the Hero damage step", that the enemy is just finished right after you brought it down to below 24%/30% of its ego. How well this compares to the other skills depends on the average attacks the opponent would have been able to do with this remaining ego, which is I think below 2, which makes this at least not better than reflect or shield.

I.e. my current ranking is:

• Shield/Reflect: Both by far! Not sure which one is better, tending slightly to reflect, but need to watch some more fights to see how much attacks do land in my shield in average.
  EDIT: As reflect does NOT reduce damage taken, this moves it down, probably similar good/bad than stun.
• Execute
• Stun

EDIT: Further thoughts:

• At least stun helps not only against opponent attacks, but also against opponent skills, at least against opponent stuns, executions and probably the 2nd reflected damage round, if stun is triggered in first round. But shield is immune to it, as it always triggers before first opponent attack. And as one usually wins very most fights, the opponent's execute skill is not to be considered either. So overall it does not make the stun skill that much better, IMO.
• Generally, execute is a skill that mostly helps only for your (offensive) fights, while all other skills also help giving opponents less league points when fight against you. I know many of you do not rate the defence team/performance high, but seeing the one digit differences between top 4 players by times, it can make a difference.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Horsting

[Tom208]

il y a 29 minutes, Ravi-Sama a dit :

Reflect - No dmg for 2 turns, plus the opponent takes their own dmg.  Super sweet.

You're wrong. Reflect doesn't prevent from damages.

[Ravi-Sama]

35 minutes ago, Horsting said:

Generally the important thing here is that one does not always fully benefit from the stun skill, as it has only a chance to happen, while all other skills trigger with 100% chance.

Alright, that's interesting.  If each skill has a 100% chance to work, besides stun, then I'd lower stun as well, but still have to try them all.  That'd move execute up for sure, meaning you'd only really need to do 71% dmg to defeat a player.

Perhaps Reflect is best vs tougher opponents, and Shield is best against weaker ones.  Execute is best for the pantheon.

I mapped out the tier 5 percentages based on rarity.

21 minutes ago, Tom208 said:

You're wrong. Reflect doesn't prevent from damages.

Ah thanks, I assumed I was taking less dmg, in the first 2 turns. I just have the legendary version of it, so I thought I was taking 20% of the dmg.  That moves up shield and execute, and lowers reflect and stun.

That means a Mythic girl's 100% reflect refers to the dmg done to the enemy, based on their own Atk, and there's no dmg reduction to the player.

Stun looks like this in PSH btw:

[Horsting]

10 minutes ago, Ravi-Sama said:

17 minutes ago, Tom208 said:

You're wrong. Reflect doesn't prevent from damages.

Ah thanks, I assumed I was taking less dmg, in the first 2 turns

Ah okay, thanks for clarification, so it is as I assumed first. This moves reflect back down, probably similar or even a little weaker than stun, and IMO makes shield the clearly best skill, by far. My assumptions regarding average rounds/opponent damage would need to be very wrong for any other skill to even coming close to shield.

If the opponent has stun, then execute and reflect become better compared to shield, as less rounds mean less chance for the opponent to trigger stun. But given that otherwise stun is very weak, it probably won't be used by many, which makes this probably not such an important point.

10 minutes ago, Ravi-Sama said:

Execute is best for the pantheon.

I think so. Comparing shield and execute in another way, especially in Pantheon where the opponent does not use skills (?): Assume that you and the god take damage moreless linearly, then an M6 shield gives you 40% more "time" to finish the god, while without execute, the got has 100/70-1=43% more time to finish you. This makes execute slightly better for win chances, where your remaining ego from original 100% do not matter. Is this thought correct? 😅

Edited September 13, 2023 by Horsting

[Antimon]

2 ore fa, Ravi-Sama ha scritto:

Tier 5 is the "more to come."  That snippet at the end actually explained tier 5 afterwards, but it was cut out of the patch notes that were released, since it wasn't finished yet, but mods got to read it all.

We knew the effects of tier 5, and the percentages.

There's no tier 6.

If they told that more tierS are to come (with 5 listed but not present at the moment of the feature release), I'd expect at least a tier 6 to come to bother our lives, sooner or later.

If you have forbidden knowledge and you can assure us that tier 6 skills are not and won't ever be a thing, I can only thank you for sharing that info with us and then God for having mercy on our mortal souls

Edited September 13, 2023 by Antimon

[Yamiray]

3 minutes ago, Tom208 said:

He's fully skilled

I hope that is just a 2001 thing.

since I'm there on HH as well here is 1400 on CH where I'm currently stuck

They seem to get the others but 5 seems off at lower levels

[EpicBacon]

I don't know if its just me, but when fighting in the pantheon and the enemy team gets off a stun the entire battle animation stops for me, and I have to click skip to proceed.
 

[Tom208]

il y a 10 minutes, EpicBacon a dit :

I don't know if its just me, but when fighting in the pantheon and the enemy team gets off a stun the entire battle animation stops for me, and I have to click skip to proceed.

I have the same issue on villain fights with the reflect skill.

[EpicBacon]

2 minutes ago, Tom208 said:

I have the same issue on villain fights with the reflect skill.

"It's a feature and working as intended"

[Horsting]

I had the same issue in 2 of 3 fights with the shield skill as well. On first fight it stuck when my remaining ego would have been below zero without the shield, so I thought this might somehow be related. But on the 2nd fight it did not stuck crossing this barrier. And on the 3rd fight it did stuck while my ego was much higher. The opponent did not have any tier 5 skill, so no clear pattern my end, but just a random stuck 2/3 times.

[Pelinor]

And so the objectification of the girls is now complete. We drug them (potions) and brainwash them (skills) into doing our bidding and then cast them aside each week by mindwiping them (skill removal). We started as heroes to rescue the girls and have now become what Bunny brought us into the Haremverse to stop. Well, I, for one, refuse to do this. I have not spent money on potions and will not spend money on these so-called skills. So be it if my decision means I never win another D3 League. Trust me; I know this will cost my character since the new combat bonuses allocated to girls' programming make competition in the Leagues much more difficult. Still, while I am all for a girl choosing to display herself and roleplay with us, I am not even close to approving a game decision where I pick and choose how a girl is forced to behave. 

[Horsting]

50 minutes ago, Pelinor said:

And so the objectification of the girls is now complete. We drug them (potions) and brainwash them (skills) into doing our bidding and then cast them aside each week by mindwiping them (skill removal). We started as heroes to rescue the girls and have now become what Bunny brought us into the Haremverse to stop.

You do not really want to say that there was any less girl objectification at any point since this game was created 😂? The whole idea of saving girls from dicks by taking them into a harem, taking money from them which they get by, not sure, having sex with you and/or each other in public (?), to decide which sex books and sex toys to be buy for them, is, well a funny story, but absolutely ridiculous from any real-world perspective. This is a porn game after all, addressing the fantasies of men in the first place. I agree with you that the need to usually re-skill one girl every week for a high Ymen price to compete in leagues is not great. But arguing from any girl-rights/objectification point of view, even just within the boundaries if the thinking of characters within this game, is as far as possible from convincing (to me). However, probably you meant this more as a joke anyway 😉.

I am actually a little relieved with how these tier 5 skills (which we knew will be implemented from when GS themselves were announced) were implemented. They are, as far as I can see now not well balanced, at least we have two good ones (shield and execution) and two weak ones one should probably never waste a bulb into (reflection and stun), but this was expected as well, as nothing in this game is really well balanced. They are (any of the two strong ones) sufficiently strong to be mandatory for any serious league ambitions, but somehow I expected this as well. What I am relieved about is that it is only  a single girl you need to skill and in case reset, and not the whole team. And it might even lead to one mythic being re-used over multiple weeks, if there is no better (blessed) one with one of the needed elements. At least for newer players who do not have large amounts of L5 and M6 girls, this is not unlikely. E.g. I am quite sure that my skilled Bunna will be in all teams for a long time, at least if there is no legendary blessing, since there are usually only 2-3 relevant girls of my harem blessed anyway, i.e. not that much exchange, especially since tier 3 skills made another axis of girls moreless fixed in my teams. So the additional costs in my case are minimal, and they are at least capped for endgame. It could have been much worse.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Horsting

[Pelinor]

37 minutes ago, Horsting said:

However, probably you meant this more as a joke anyway 😉.

For the most part, yes, my post was intended to be a sarcastic joke. However, I was serious about KK losing my Real word spending on these new (girl equipment and skills) additions to the game. IMHO, they would have been far better off by implementing the girl equipment as a component of the Comic Harem and the girl skills as part of the Pornstar Harem games. This would have given each game its own unique feel and market niche.

[renalove]

Quote

• Reflect X% of the damage taken in the first 2 rounds
  • Triggers before the hit
  • If execute – calculate the damage up to 0 ego

Reflect is described as "Triggers before the hit," but it looks to be triggered after the hit. It may just be a visual bug.

[jelom]

1 hour ago, Pelinor said:

they would have been far better off by implementing the girl equipment as a component of the Comic Harem and the girl skills as part of the Pornstar Harem games. This would have given each game its own unique feel and market niche.

It fits more that super heroines have skills that augment their powers, but they could also have gadgets (equipment) for that task too.

 

[Tom208]

Il y a 1 heure, renalove a dit :

Reflect is described as "Triggers before the hit," but it looks to be triggered after the hit. It may just be a visual bug.

It doesn't really matter if your reflect skill triggers before or after your hit since it only works when the opponent hits.
I didn't notice any issue with that skill when I test it with some villain fights.

[Antimon]

4 ore fa, EpicBacon ha scritto:

I don't know if its just me, but when fighting in the pantheon and the enemy team gets off a stun the entire battle animation stops for me, and I have to click skip to proceed.
 

Yep, it's kind of like the game gets stunned *badum tss*

Jokes aside, yes, it happened to me as well. At first I thought it was a problem with how the game process these new heavily tested new skills (for me the first time it freezed after the stun ended, with a crit by the pantheon squad, that would have definitely killed me if it wasn't for the stun skill). Then it happened again in non critical moments

( @Horsting had the same thought process I had but much earlier. Note to self: read the comments in the topic till the end next time)

Edited September 13, 2023 by Antimon