New Feature: The Labyrinth - Started December 6th 2023 at live

[EpicBacon]

54 minutes ago, Horsting said:

A way you can see a benefit in those relics now already: Tanks with this relic will survive at least longer, means you loose less girls until then. So the benefit for the last boss fight is then not that you have a stronger team, as the relic was lost with the girl, but that you lost less girls on the way and have hence more to burn and in case defeat the last boss in more attempts.

I treat the girls as a resource in the labyrinth. It's like health in magic the gathering or hearthstone, its irrelevant aslong you don't go under 0. So I value relics for specific girls less then those who buffs all the girls.

I think this will be something that one would have to consider more at the higher difficulties, I actually do not have enough girls at level 750 to field a team consisting of 15-20 damage dealers and the rest mages. Since its rarely that the front gets breached, you don't really need that many damage dealers, I do like keeping some extra around just in case tho.
I go into hard fights assuming the frontline will be killed, so for floor 1 and 2 i usually stick tanks on the frontline, and saving the mages for floor3. It also does not help when they give you relics that boosts girls that are already tired

Once the bugs are sorted out there need to be some balancing for sure, like the green skill should probably cost half the mana then it does now, or green girls should recharge mana faster, that way, the skill can be used early, giving mana to characters that actually need it. Getting this skill out at turn3 would make green a lot more useful, making it so you can get that shield or healing done in time.

Orange is also not great, I mean i am not complaining about defence, but if you have to wait for 4 turns, you get at most 1 or 2 rounds of some extra defence, when most of the enemies are dead anyways

[DvDivXXX]

You two are amazing and it's a pleasure reading your brainstorming and data sharing on the Labyrinth (and humbly trying to contribute). <3

One thing I think they didn't think through when designing the relic type, regardless of bugs, is that relics that offer to buff a specific girl should have at least a few basic criteria, instead of being completely random as it currently is.

1. I fairly often get offered a relic for a specific girl who's dead "tired" when I get the offer. This feels dumb.
    
2. There should be at least a basic check of some kind, so that we don't constantly get offered HP, Def or Healing for girls who are chilling in the Backline anyway, or extra damage for fodder "tanking" in the Frontline.
   
   Now, if there weren't any bugs, the game could rely on the roles and only offer DPS relics to "Damage Dealers", extra HP or Def to "Tanks" or extra... Harmony to "Mages" (I guess?).
   
   Or it could select a random girl in your team first, then check which line you've placed her in, and then offer a relevant buff for that line. Oh, you're tanking with her? Okay, how about a Dodge or Defense relic, then? Or Ah, my bad, she's your main DPS in the backline, let's switch that to a damage buff.

[Horsting]

41 minutes ago, DvDivXXX said:

1. I fairly often get offered a relic for a specific girl who's dead "tired" when I get the offer. This feels dumb.

I am on Discord in the meantime. Found out that it did not like my "fun" mail address, and creating another one with the same provider sorted it. Now I am wondering what the CAPTCHA is even offered for, when you are not trusted even after solving it 😒. However, I saw that this was also reported there, and we can push it with finger up reaction. No idea whether bug reports there are handled any more serious than here, but giving it a try.

Having conditions in general for the single-girl relics to offer them only for girls which (are expected to) benefit from them, would make them more competitive and interesting in general. Currently one must mostly avoid them, in case there any other non-bugged ones, or when you are lucky and the dodge or life steal relic is offered for one of your tanks who you are expecting to survive for longer. But of course fixing all the bugged relics has first priority for me, as then there would be more often relevant alternatives as well.

Since harmony increases speed and the crit chance, it is best for DDs as well. However, IIRC there are no single-girl harmony buff relics, only for all girls or for middle line?

[DvDivXXX]

8 minutes ago, Horsting said:

I am on Discord in the meantime.

Sweet! Feel free to add me as Friend if you can find me (don't know my number ID by heart, but my nickname is exactly the same). As I often mention, I tend to stay off Discord for weeks at a time, because when I finally decide to open it I end up chatting and catching up on stuff for hours, but I'll definitely add you next time I go.

[Horsting]

1 minute ago, DvDivXXX said:

I tend to stay off Discord for weeks at a time

Same here, same with my main account as well. I am just there when something forces me to 😅. So I might not answer PMs for a long while. But will be more active the next days, aiming to report all the Laby and League bugs, after knowing how to do best: All in a bulk, one by one, waiting for reaction before overloading the channel, how to incorporate reports which were done already but lack some details?

[EpicBacon]

I've made a googlesheet with all of the relics.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rdqShf9G3FQ0P_cOWh8e8r3Ylb-MDK_VdIwCXfvlwiw/edit?usp=sharing

[DvDivXXX]

3 hours ago, Horsting said:

how to do best: All in a bulk, one by one, waiting for reaction before overloading the channel, how to incorporate reports which were done already but lack some details?

Honestly, I'm not the best equipped to advise you on that. Any of the Discord mods would be much more helpful. The main names that come to mind about reporting bugs and discussing tech issues with Sandman would be @Darkyz_, @zoopokemon and also Numbers (forgot the actual numbers again, sorry ^^) although he's technically no longer a mod but still a very special guest star in the mods channel. Others as well, but they're assigned to GH.

EDIT: Damn, I forgot about @holymolly . Of course ping Holy first and foremost! Always ping Holy. Free tip: prepare a Gif or two of that Rin character he loves so much (from one the Fate anime series, it's the inspiration for Bianca in HH IIRC).

Sorry if the ping is inconvenient, guys, just trying to help a helper help.

(Otherwise if you can catch any of them when you visit the Discord channel I'm sure they'll advise you).

2 hours ago, EpicBacon said:

I've made a googlesheet with all of the relics.

You're a champ! Thanks a lot.

Edited December 21, 2023 by DvDivXXX
holy molly! ^^

[EpicBacon]

1 hour ago, DvDivXXX said:

You're a champ! Thanks a lot.

Team effort, me and a couple of club members pooled our relic data after the 2nd run of the labyrinth.
That created a solid foundation, and I've been updating the sheet since then, filling in new information and changing estimates that were wrong. There are still some unconfirmed relics left, but I am 99% confident that they are correct.

[holymolly]

6 hours ago, DvDivXXX said:

Honestly, I'm not the best equipped to advise you on that. Any of the Discord mods would be much more helpful. The main names that come to mind about reporting bugs and discussing tech issues with Sandman would be @Darkyz_, @zoopokemon and also Numbers (forgot the actual numbers again, sorry ^^) although he's technically no longer a mod but still a very special guest star in the mods channel. Others as well, but they're assigned to GH.

EDIT: Damn, I forgot about @holymolly . Of course ping Holy first and foremost! Always ping Holy. Free tip: prepare a Gif or two of that Rin character he loves so much (from one the Fate anime series, it's the inspiration for Bianca in HH IIRC).

Sorry if the ping is inconvenient, guys, just trying to help a helper help.

(Otherwise if you can catch any of them when you visit the Discord channel I'm sure they'll advise you).

You're a champ! Thanks a lot.

[EpicBacon]

New day, new labyrinth run, there were several relics I wanted to check up on today, but unfortunately I did not get a great selection, I could pick up a "double attack" but it was a common 3% for a frontline girl, so passed on that one. I was able to pick up a couple +harmony relics, both for everyone, specific girl and midline.

So first of all, I screenshotted my girl screen, and planned on comparing it when I picked up relics. It does turn out that this screen never updates, it has no interaction with the relics, atleast not visually. And its probably just the base girl stats. This means even if I grabbed relics, the number never changed. Now we know that Ego artifacts does work, I even get to check that myself this run, its just not displayed on the stats screen.

Harmony is a lot harder to check tho, but since Rena added the battle order showing in the labyrinth, its easier to check out. I checked in all my battles, and all the numbers corresponded with the girl order in battle, If a girl had higher numbers in the stat screen, she had priority in battle. I even moved girls around when I got the harmony for midline relic. Now I don't know the formula for harmony, how much it adds to speed, and while the relic is only 6%, you would think it would have some effect, but I was not able to see difference. Even with my girl who had 16% harmony buff did not change her battleorder, even when I put her in the midline that also had the 6% bonus. Either the speedbonus is very very very low, or it does not get added at all.

I also tried to compare only my own girls, to see what is going on, I was able to find girls with ego that are really close to eachother and see if the interaction with the midline harmony relic would change anything. Spoiler; I could not find anything. I did however figure out something with this test tho.

The battle order with girls of the same speed follows the regular battle order that you have in the other modes, Starting from the middle, goes up and around in a circle, now this itself is not a groundbreaking discovery, it actually makes some sense, and if you have girls with the same speed you could feasibly set it up so certain girls that needs healing could hit a damaged girl. Due to auto battle tho, its very unlikely.


In this screenshot, you can see my girls battle order, and I've pasted in all of the girls stats. Girls 8-12 gets their turn first due to higher speed, followed by 13 and 14, due to them having 5 less speed overall. Notice they are all following the standard battle order. What is interesting here is that girl 10, who has the exact same speed as girl 8 and 9, gets her turn after both of them, even tho she should get the 6% harmony relic bonus, increasing her speed.

Its also worth noticing that the harmony on the girls with 5 less speed also just happens to be 5 points lower then the higher speed ones... 

Edit: this screenshot was taken before challenging the final boss, I used this team against the final boss, (I did swap Olivine and Thyra around to make sure my frontline was at full health. The boss was kind enough not to kill any of my frontline girls, and all the girls had their turn as per the turn order

Edited December 22, 2023 by EpicBacon
Formatting, additional info

[Tamara_xox]

I had a few questions, I tried to read through the epic tale of posts on here but may have missed it. 

 

1.  Either here or another discussion it mentioned how 'tank' type girls were not working, and that 'mage' girls were better tanks?  Has this been resolved yet?  I couldn't find any more information on this.  Thankfully I am of decent enough power that on Easy mode so far, it sort of doesn't matter who I use, but I am curious about it.

2.  I thought I read somewhere about what effects stacked and which didn't.  Is protective bubble additive?  A recent run I had a total of 90% protective bubble relics, but I still seemed to take quite a bit of damage.  It seemed that the amount blocked didn't seem to matter vs the huge chunk of Ego removed, as if it wasn't working right, but I am far from expert in the mechanics.

[Horsting]

21 minutes ago, Tamara_xox said:

1.  Either here or another discussion it mentioned how 'tank' type girls were not working, and that 'mage' girls were better tanks?  Has this been resolved yet?

No, basically not a single of the large list of Labyrinth bugs has ever been solved. Just check the defence stat of the girls to see which ones are better tanks.

21 minutes ago, Tamara_xox said:

I thought I read somewhere about what effects stacked and which didn't.  Is protective bubble additive?

This relic is bugged and ADDS the percentage of damage, instead of reducing it. So stacking 90% means your girls get nearly doubled damage, which explains the huge chunk of ego removed. Never select this relic.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Horsting

[madahmed]

I dont know about Tanks but I always use 2 tanks in front + one in middle and it woks well for me. 

and particularily today i noticed that stacking defence relics can be beneficial also.

in my comix harem run , i stacked two defences relics + a 40 %  dodging relic for a tank girl and she suried the whole third floor without being tired until the boss. she kept dodging attacks especially in the first battle 8 dodges in 4 rounds.

the dodging also works without dodging relics if you stack some defence relics especially without lower opponents.

[EpicBacon]

3 minutes ago, madahmed said:

I dont know about Tanks but I always use 2 tanks in front + one in middle and it woks well for me. 

and particularily today i noticed that stacking defence relics can be beneficial also.

in my comix harem run , i stacked two defences relics + a 40 %  dodging relic for a tank girl and she suried the whole third floor without being tired until the boss. she kept dodging attacks especially in the first battle 8 dodges in 4 rounds.

the dodging also works without dodging relics if you stack some defence relics especially without lower opponents.

ah so dodge is based on defence, that actually makes some sense, no wonder mages does better since they got the defence buff instead of "tanks" This would also explain why I was able to dodge medium fights early on, I usually use throwaway "tank" girls for the first floor, but I was able to stick with the mages all the way up to the 1st floor boss with no dodge relics.

[madahmed]

il y a 1 minute, EpicBacon a dit :

ah so dodge is based on defence, that actually makes some sense, no wonder mages does better since they got the defence buff instead of "tanks" This would also explain why I was able to dodge medium fights early on, I usually use throwaway "tank" girls for the first floor, but I was able to stick with the mages all the way up to the 1st floor boss with no dodge relics.

i dont know about the mages . i noticed in their stats that they have better defence. but when i used they in the early days of the love labyrinth, they get tired pretty quickly.

i think  for front girls, the most important is Ego .thats why i am using two tanks since they have more ego which makes them survive more with some defence , ego and dodging relics.

The dodging relic is very impressive. I got a 40% relics for Elita in comix harem and here are the result that i gathered after putting the 40% doding relic .

Battle 1 : 4 rounds, 8 dodges (she was targeted because she was alone in front)

Battle 2 4 rounds , 4 dodges

Battle 3  : 3 rounds , 3 dodges

battle 4  4 ounds , 3 dodges.

final boss : 1 dodge but she got tired as they targeted her pretty quicly.

about the defence relics , i am pretty sure they increase the dodging also and especially with lower opponents in floor 1 as i had many series of 5 or 6 dodges in a row for the whole team when equipping defence relics.

Do you have the formula of how damage is calculated? i want to test more this defensive aspect of the game.

 

[EpicBacon]

2 minutes ago, madahmed said:

Do you have the formula of how damage is calculated? i want to test more this defensive aspect of the game.

@Horsting is probably your best bet for the math and formulas around here, he's the one who did the damage testing, figuring out they they work, and how. Alltho damage is probably easier to figure out then defence.

That is some nice dodges, I've never gotten a dodge relic early on, but If i do get one, I'll be interested in checking it out.

With dodge it would make sense that mages would be better, since they get more base defence, relics that buff percentages should be better, no? There are three ways to block in this game, the first being Dodge, and it does seem to work fine. 2nd would be defence, the problem with defence is that attack is better, meaning you will probably not be able to stack enough defence to offset the increased attack from the higher labyrinth floors. Thirdly would be damage resistance/absorb and in this game that would be the protective bubble, reducing the incoming damage by a percentage, ofcource in this game, the bubbles do not work as intended and makes you take more damage instead.

Ultimately you would probably want a combination of all three, dodge to take no damage, then defence to make sure you take less damage, and the bubble to reduce the damage taken with even further. Add in some healing, with "Ego rebound" "Rejuvenation" and "Defeat medication" and one could start looking into a team going the whole way.

[Horsting]

1 hour ago, madahmed said:

I dont know about Tanks but I always use 2 tanks in front + one in middle and it woks well for me. 

Currently it all doesn't matter much because of the low difficulty after the "rebalancing" patch. But just test with 2 "mage" CH girls, and it should work even a little smoother in average. You can also use 1 CH and 1 HC girl in the front, and compare the damage they take in average, and how long they survive.

1 hour ago, madahmed said:

in my comix harem run , i stacked two defences relics + a 40 %  dodging relic for a tank girl and she suried the whole third floor without being tired until the boss. she kept dodging attacks especially in the first battle 8 dodges in 4 rounds.

The defence relics have pretty minor effect on this, the dodge relic however indeed is very strong. Just keep in mind that, while 1 point defence has about the same value than 1 point attack, your girls have only about half the amount of defence points compared to attack. So 1% defence has only about half the value of 1% AP. Of course finally it depends a little on other bonuses, which girl in particular it is about etc, but this can be taken as a rough decision basis, and is in general true for B.D.S.M. as well (there the difference between AP and defence is larger because of more stacking bonuses, boosters etc).

59 minutes ago, EpicBacon said:

ah so dodge is based on defence, that actually makes some sense

No, at least I am not aware of any info/hint that "dodge" is affected by defence. I guess harmony affects the dodge chance, but there is really not info, and the chance is usually so low, that this cannot be tested. Only against green opponents and a large sample size, one might be able to test it.

"Dodge" avoids the whole attack, zero damage, while "defence" reduce the damage of an attack (which was not dodged).

36 minutes ago, madahmed said:

but when i used they in the early days of the love labyrinth, they get tired pretty quickly.

Note that the Labyrinth was significantly harder the first days, before the "rebalancing" patch significantly reduced the stats of all opponents.

36 minutes ago, madahmed said:

i think  for front girls, the most important is Ego

You can basically calculate which defence value wights up which ego value. 1 defence reduces the damage taken by an attack by 2. So if you know the average damage the opponents do, and hence how much attacks a girl takes before she gets tired, you can derive it. E.g. a girl with 300k ego would survive 10 attacks of each 30k damage. She would survive one attack more with either 30k ego more, or 1.5k defence, since these 1.5k defence reduce the damage taken by those 10 attacks by 1.5k*2*10=30k as well. Ah, the 1.5k defence would be a little better, since the now last 11th attack deals 27k damage only, leaving some ego to survive 😉. So just roughly in this scenario, 1 point defence has the value of 20 points ego. If I compare now CH and HC girls with equal rarity and stars, the ratio between their ego diff and defence diff is about 10:1, hence only half of what would be required to make the ego weight up the lost defence in above scenario (which is moreless what you see on red opponents?). But against bosses, at least the 2nd and 3rd, the HC girls might be a little better indeed. They are also good fodder then, to sacrifice and instead keep the CH girls for the opponents on next floor.

36 minutes ago, madahmed said:

Do you have the formula of how damage is calculated?

Edited December 22, 2023 by Horsting

[EpicBacon]

16 minutes ago, Horsting said:

No, at least I am not aware of any info/hint that "dodge" is affected by defence. I guess harmony affects the dodge chance, but there is really not info, and the chance is usually so low, that this cannot be tested. Only against green opponents and a large sample size, one might be able to test it.

Well the thing is, the one time I tried going mages first, I was able to dodge even medium fights, and I've never been able to do that before, and it was not just one time, I dodge about half or 2-3 medium fights in a row, and that was without grabbing any defence relics. If I remember it, I'll try it again next cycle, It could have just been a fluke

[jelom]

There is no timer for the labyrinth 60 days season.

How do we know when it will end?

[Der DinX]

Guess that doesn't really matter, as long as the available Girls are stacked, because nothing else will be changed, and the rewards change frequently anyways.

So we will probably know that this period is over and the next starts, when the new girl is announced in patch notes.

[Valiant]

But one thing that does matter: Be careful wit the girl in the second slot. In the past the game suggested to me a girl which currently was offered in another  event, that was running.

So the game offered Olivine to me. But that would be a waste of labyrinth currency, cause she is also available in the current POG.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Valiant

[DvDivXXX]

12 hours ago, jelom said:

There is no timer for the labyrinth 60 days season.

How do we know when it will end?

We could simply make a note of when the current first 60-day cycle started, and then make a table from there. The current thread title is helpful: 2023/12/06. So next new L5 should be added ~60 days from there, and so on.

I was sure there was a timer somewhere for that, but I couldn't find it.

Other than that, @Der DinX is right that it doesn't matter all that much since the only thing that changes every 60 days is that another L5 gets added to your first slot queue in the Laby Shop.

And also, the Laby Shop items do get refreshed at least twice a day if not more, even though no one even at Kinkoid seems to be clear that it even happens (not even Sandman, the chief of Tech, at least based on earlier screenshots from Discord), let alone what's the pattern.

I'm still interested in getting at least a rough guesstimate, because it's not easy to check especially when you're looking for a specific L5 out of several eligible ones to show up in the second slot.

All of yesterday, I had Captain Piper in that slot, although I'm almost certain the smaller items changed at least once during that time, so she probably got rolled twice in a row. This morning, for the first time since I've grabbed some shards for her from the Sapphire Shop, Melodic Amelia showed up (I don't have the coins to benefit from her appearance yet, but it's still comforting to see her there).

Edited December 23, 2023 by DvDivXXX
updated

[DuDeLoK]

are u guys sure that shop refreshes twice per day? because for me it only once per day but not at cutoff time... also mb it matters to go in shop right after it refreshed so refresh timer starts going again

[EpicBacon]

On 12/23/2023 at 3:37 PM, DuDeLoK said:

are u guys sure that shop refreshes twice per day? because for me it only once per day but not at cutoff time... also mb it matters to go in shop right after it refreshed so refresh timer starts going again

It used to be twice, but lately I am not so sure, I've usually looked at the legend/mythic bulb slot, as they seemed to cycle between each other, as I've gotten the same girl offer in slot2 several times. Lately tho I've only gotten legend bulb offers
I should try to pay more attention. The reset time seems to be around 6-7 am Gmt+1 for me

Edit: When I checked the laby store at 1:13 AM Gmt+1 on the 24ththe store had reset.
Edit2: When checking the laby store at 7:06 PM Gmt+1 on the 24th, the store had reset again

Edited December 24, 2023 by EpicBacon
additional information

[OmerB]

On 12/15/2023 at 3:07 PM, DvDivXXX said:

Well, it would be two separate things, in my mind at least (otherwise it would be broken indeed).

1. If we can make one run of each difficulty per 48-hour* cycle, then it would be ONLY one of each.
    
2. If we get the ability to cancel a run we've started, it would also be only ONCE (or once for each difficulty). This would allow someone to try say Hard, find out they can't do it, and cancel so they don't stay stuck. The Hard difficulty would then be grayed out for the rest of that particular 48-hour cycle. And so on.

These two conditions should prevent any abuse one way or the other.

The option to cancel a run I'm suggesting solely to prevent people from getting stuck and missing out on a run, or even being too scared to try higher difficulties knowing they might get stuck that way. But again, to prevent abuse, it should be a one-time thing.

I see your point about locking individual nodes even with this in mind, though, to avoid someone basically cheating out almost 2 full extra runs they'd then cancel on top of the 1 run they'd actually complete. I just don't think it would be all that simple for devs to implement and maintain.

Ideally, I'd rather have all rewards earned throughout a given run being stored until you actually complete the run, rather than credited immediately as we win any individual fight as is currently the case. This way, you'd have to complete the run and then you'd get all of the rewards earned throughout that run all at once when you defeat the final boss. With this simple change, when you cancel a run, you'd get nothing, so no abuse would be possible. You'd only be able to get the rewards once, for the one run you actually complete (or for up to three, once for each difficulty, if they go with my idea of allowing us one run per difficulty for each 48-hour cycle). This would be clear and I think easier for devs to tweak. It would also give us more control in when we need our rewards (especially Fists and Kisses) whereas in the current system if we don't want to go over our storage limits, we need to monitor them during the run.

I don't know why you're referring to something that might be possible in the game as an "abuse" or "cheating".

If it's possible in-game, I'm assuming that the developers intended that it's how it should work. So if it would be possible to go way up in the hard mode, then going to medium, and then finishing the easy mode, I'm guessing that's how it works, and many players would do it (it's basically the same as having the possibility to make a run on each difficulty mode once per cycle).

Anyway, I don't want to be able to do runs at all difficulties per cycle. I much prefer having the option to choose a difficulty at the start, and then having to do with it for that cycle (48 hours). If someone can't finish a higher mode, he/she should select a lower difficulty for the next cycle - the iterations are from cycle to cycle, not in between. That's my solution.

And as for the rewards, I'm preferring to get them straight away, after beating a Labyrinth opponent, as it is now.

BTW, the tokens rewards from the first floor are really meager, it might be better to choose a red or orange opponent instead of bags on the 1st floor.

Edited December 24, 2023 by OmerB