Club Champion number crunching

[Tom208]

il y a 3 minutes, Eexa Man a dit :

What a strange (to stay polite) move once only the newer players are affected.

For now, only the newer players are affected but it will affect every player as soon as a new girl will arrive on a club champion.

But yes, I agree with you 😉

[Pelinor]

30 minutes ago, Tom208 said:

number of shards = % of impression done

For instance, if you do 2,5%, you will get 2 or 3 shards (I don't know how Kinkoid does the rounding).

Hmmm, 30/37 participating and 3% impressions done = 2 shards at a cost of 26 tickets under the "new" system (numbers are from a club member, I already have the girl). Based on what I have read and what I am seeing this means it's better for the higher level club members to keep a very low profile. How does encouraging non-participation in a gaming feature promote playing the game?

[Eexa]

il y a 5 minutes, Pelinor a dit :

Hmmm, 30/37 participating and 3% impressions done = 2 shards at a cost of 26 tickets under the "new" system (numbers are from a club member, I already have the girl). Based on what I have read and what I am seeing this means it's better for the higher level club members to keep a very low profile. How does encouraging non-participation in a gaming feature promote playing the game?

Like I answered earlier in this thread to Kenrae, it is not even true (see figures there). This on the contrary encourages lower level club members to put only 1 ticket and hope the higher will finish the boss as soon as possible. Or in the end, it coud also be that neither the high level nor the low level will play at all because Kinkoid just broke the club champions 👍

Edited June 27, 2021 by Eexa Man

[Kenrae]

The change is so brutal that it could very well be a bug. It's a huge downgrade .

[Eexa]

il y a 1 minute, Kenrae a dit :

The change is so brutal that it could very well be a bug. It's a huge downgrade .

Strange I thought there was a test server to avoid these enormities? 🤭

My theory is it was a deliberate attempt to strongly nerf the mecanism and who knows, with Euro and all, maybe nobody will notice 🤣

Edited June 27, 2021 by Eexa Man

[Kenrae]

1 minute ago, Eexa Man said:

Strange I thought there was a test server to avoid these enormities? 🤭

Do you know how many times I've written those same exact words? 😂

Edited June 27, 2021 by Kenrae

[sigma29]

19 participants. 47 tickets.  Boss (level 148) kill-progress is 77.5%.
-> 1 frag 

[Shorty-er]

It does explain why it was so urgent to fix the club-hopping non-issue. It would have become a *massive* issue with this nerf if club-hopping was still allowed. People would jump into lower level clubs, kill the CC, walk away with a lot of shards and leave next to nothing for the club members.

In itself it's nice to see KK so pro-active for a change. It's too bad they're pro-active about an issue they just created themselves.

[Gotaku]

Again, simple answer remains obvious: reward ticket participation instead of damage. Look at the poor lad NeoDr. in the example above. Spends his whole fortune of tickets including who knows how many kobans to come to a total of 176 tickets; still gets just 1 lousy shard.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Gotaku

[windia]

I wish they would change the shard reward formula to something like 

"invested tickets / player's level * constant number". 

 

e.g.

• 120 tickets / lvl65 * x   = 1,85 * x   vs.  120 tickets * 0,03M contribution =  3,6M contribution * x
• 120 tickets / lvl165 * x = 0,73 * x   vs.  120 tickets * 0,07M contribution =   8,4M contribution * x
• 20 tickets / lvl465 * x  = 0,04 * x   vs.  20 tickets * 1,2M contribution     = 24,0M contribution * x
• 120 tickets / lvl465 * x = 0,26 * x  vs. 120 tickets * 1,2M contribution    =144,0M contribution * x

Because as far as I understand - despite the description - even platinum card players need to pay 6 kobans for CC cooldown "go away faster".

With my suggestion a low level player might be unable to finish the CC - yet he contributes as much as he can and earns "regarding his effort".

And a low level player - especially with the new long month system - is usually far from being the "tipping point" about a CC defeat.

So in my opinion both earn "regarding their effort based on what they should be able to contribute".

Yes, a bad girl selection can make it hard  - yet on average this could be ignored.

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by windia

[Karyia]

From the values being shared, the lower level members of (at least, my) club are pretty much doomed. 

A significant percentage is scoring below 0,5%, which means they're not even close to the 2 shard per drop tier (as we suppose it is). That 2 shard tier would mean they still would need 50 challenges, so at least 2 or 3 different rotations to get 1 girl (and probably hundreds/thousands of tickets to get there). A, I would say, passable girl for those who can get her "easily" but very hard (VERY!) to get to those who might actually have some use for her, battleteam wise.

At least the previous system potentially gave everyone hope that they could have a better outcome, with some organization and iniciative (and RNG luck, no doubt).

 

I would suggest something like this to be incorporated to the previous system:

Reward extra shards for certain impression % until a max reward shard, for example:

i) >5% impression -> 1 shard

ii) >10% impression -> 2 shards

iii) >15% impression -> 3 shards

iv) >20% impression -> 4 shards

v) >25% impression -> 5 shards (limit).

Not sure what you think about it but over time (several challenges), this would help getting the girl and avoid those ridiculous 1 drops out of 1-30, for example, while the min shard range guys get 3  

The values, of course, are editable, just a suggestion/idea.

 

This change is (or seems), like the mythic items, a step backwards.

If the idea is for the club members to get together and work towards a collective goal, at least make it something (relatively) achievable and fun (looks like neither to me, right now).

Hopefully things will NOT be as they seem in this topic.

[Rylarth]

Keeping in mind that with currently difficulty most clubs that dont pay kobans for cooldown have barelly time for 10-15 rounds each month it would be much better if you got 5 shards Base each round that should potentialy give you at least 50 shards each month and then like you suggested doing 1 shard bonus based on impression would be a much better distribution on shards then lower level players would at least have a shot

Edited June 29, 2021 by Rylarth

[Eexa]

Il y a 3 heures, Rylarth a dit :

Keeping in mind that with currently difficulty most clubs that dont pay kobans for cooldown have barelly time for 10-15 rounds each month it would be much better if you got 5 shards Base each round that should potentialy give you at least 50 shards each month and then like you suggested doing 1 shard bonus based on impression would be a much better distribution on shards then lower level players would at least have a shot

Actually, it is even less. I think we did 5 (maybe 6 I have a doubt) rounds in total for the whole month and only one with the new system. Overall the CC is very challenging since his level never goes down anymore.

If you add up the fact that now the rewards are ridiculously low, no one is interested anymore in spending tickets as long as it is not fixed.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Eexa

[Rylarth]

I only know my clubs rounds a month we are on round 12 still agree they could have done the patch better though hope they take note of the feedback before next CC

 

[jelom]

The irony here is that now we have what the people asked for: a fixed shards reward system.

Seeing in retrospect the previous system seems pretty much balanced even with the uncertainty of RNG, but because of some harsh complaints about that same RNG now players are faced with an infinite grind to get the girl. Be careful for what you want, because it could be not as good as you thought.

[Karyia]

1 hour ago, jelom said:

The irony here is that now we have what the people asked for: a fixed shards reward system.

Seeing in retrospect the previous system seems pretty much balanced even with the uncertainty of RNG, but because of some harsh complaints about that same RNG now players are faced with an infinite grind to get the girl. Be careful for what you want, because it could be not as good as you thought.

In retrospect, they changed an unbalanced system for another unbalanced system (don't forget the huge gaps between clubs/players, please), a worse one at that (in the odds-to-get the girl way).

The difference was the first gave access to higher shard ranges, compared to the new one.

Personally, the feature is devoid of any motivation to be played, as it is (as a whole for the club members).

Nor does it achieve what it was meant for (cooperative play), at least not in a club like mine.

Which is totally fine, of course. It's not like it's something mandatory or necessary.

[Kenrae]

3 hours ago, jelom said:

The irony here is that now we have what the people asked for: a fixed shards reward system.

Seeing in retrospect the previous system seems pretty much balanced even with the uncertainty of RNG, but because of some harsh complaints about that same RNG now players are faced with an infinite grind to get the girl. Be careful for what you want, because it could be not as good as you thought.

We also asked fot Mythic books and affection items and look what we got 🙄
But that's on KK. They could have perfectly added mythic items bought with cash, which is what everybody had in mind. And they could have changed to a fixed shard system with the same average than the previous system (i.e. 1-51 becomes 26).

[Pelinor]

In both incarnations of the CC the reward is based on the impression percentage achieved by the player and not by the individual effort made. When you couple that with a very poor reward system for both the players without the girl and players who have gained the girl you will see complaints. Clubs can plan for giving lower level players a better shot but they can do nothing about easing the sense of unfairness to both the low and high level players (whether that feeling is accurate or not).

I kind of like @windia's idea of ((tickets used/player level) = A (effort made)) as the first step to solving the overall problem.

The second step should be a club participation rate ((players participating/club members) = B (participation rate)).

My third step would be (A/B)*C=R (where C= impression percentage and R= reward level).

Using @windia's numbers the results would look like this:

Player One: (going for shards)

A = (120 tickets / lvl65) = 1.85

B= (32 participants/40 club level) = .8

R= ((1.85/.8)=2.31)*1.006 (1+(3.6m/524m)) where 524m = my clubs current CC ego and 3m is the players total impressions = 2.323

Player Two: (going for shards)

A = (120 tickets / lvl165) = 0.73

B= (32 participants/40 club level) = .8

R= ((.8/.8)=1)*1.016 (1+(8.4m/524m) where 524m = my clubs current CC ego and 7m is the players total impressions = 1.016

Player Three: (going for participation reward)

A = (20 tickets / lvl465) = 0.04

B= (32 participants/40 club level) = .8

R= ((.04/.8)=.05)*1.045 (1+(24m/524m) where 524m = my clubs current CC ego and 24m is the players total impressions = .052

Player Four: (going for participation reward)

A = (120 tickets / lvl465) = 0.26

B= (32 participants/40 club level) = .8

R= (.26/.8)=.325)*1.274 (1+(144m/524m) where 524m = my clubs current CC ego and 144m is the players total impressions = .414

So what does this system do? It changes the current system to indicate the individual effort made in battling the CC. Now, if the R value was used to determine the shard results (under a fixed system) or shard range (under a RNG system) this goes a long way towards making players feel like their effort is doing something for both the club and themselves. If the "participation reward" given to players having obtained the girl was keyed to multiple items (based on their R value) instead of a single legendary affection item then those players have a greater incentive to keep participating.

[windia]

9 minutes ago, Pelinor said:

[...]

The second step should be a club participation rate ((players participating/club members) = B (participation rate)).

My third step would be (A/B)*C=R (where C= impression percentage and R= reward level).

[...]

Thank you very much for this addition - having better results when more club members participate is something we had previously and was very important.

[Kenrae]

51 minutes ago, Pelinor said:

In both incarnations of the CC the reward is based on the impression percentage achieved by the player and not by the individual effort made. When you couple that with a very poor reward system for both the players without the girl and players who have gained the girl you will see complaints. Clubs can plan for giving lower level players a better shot but they can do nothing about easing the sense of unfairness to both the low and high level players (whether that feeling is accurate or not).

I kind of like @windia's idea of ((tickets used/player level) = A (effort made)) as the first step to solving the overall problem.

The second step should be a club participation rate ((players participating/club members) = B (participation rate)).

My third step would be (A/B)*C=R (where C= impression percentage and R= reward level).

Using @windia's numbers the results would look like this:

Player One: (going for shards)

A = (120 tickets / lvl65) = 1.85

B= (32 participants/40 club level) = .8

R= ((1.85/.8)=2.31)*1.006 (1+(3.6m/524m)) where 524m = my clubs current CC ego and 3m is the players total impressions = 2.323

Player Two: (going for shards)

A = (120 tickets / lvl165) = 0.73

B= (32 participants/40 club level) = .8

R= ((.8/.8)=1)*1.016 (1+(8.4m/524m) where 524m = my clubs current CC ego and 7m is the players total impressions = 1.016

Player Three: (going for participation reward)

A = (20 tickets / lvl465) = 0.04

B= (32 participants/40 club level) = .8

R= ((.04/.8)=.05)*1.045 (1+(24m/524m) where 524m = my clubs current CC ego and 24m is the players total impressions = .052

Player Four: (going for participation reward)

A = (120 tickets / lvl465) = 0.26

B= (32 participants/40 club level) = .8

R= (.26/.8)=.325)*1.274 (1+(144m/524m) where 524m = my clubs current CC ego and 144m is the players total impressions = .414

So what does this system do? It changes the current system to indicate the individual effort made in battling the CC. Now, if the R value was used to determine the shard results (under a fixed system) or shard range (under a RNG system) this goes a long way towards making players feel like their effort is doing something for both the club and themselves. If the "participation reward" given to players having obtained the girl was keyed to multiple items (based on their R value) instead of a single legendary affection item then those players have a greater incentive to keep participating.

I can see people fighting with a bad team and bad equipment on purpose with this system.

[Pelinor]

1 hour ago, Kenrae said:

I can see people fighting with a bad team and bad equipment on purpose with this system.

That's a valid point but such efforts to cheat would be unsustainable in the long run (I think) sine the ultimate limiting factor is how many tickets a player has or can hope to gain during game play. If cheating as you envision did become a problem the easy solution is to set a maximum number of tickets a player can use. In the case used for my example given above, the limit looks like it would be 120 tickets per player. With such a limit in place it would be bad game play to attempt gaming the system as you suggest.

[Kenrae]

3 minutes ago, Pelinor said:

That's a valid point but such efforts to cheat would be unsustainable in the long run (I think) sine the ultimate limiting factor is how many tickets a player has or can hope to gain during game play. If cheating as you envision did become a problem the easy solution is to set a maximum number of tickets a player can use. In the case used for my example given above, the limit looks like it would be 120 tickets per player. With such a limit in place it would be bad game play to attempt gaming the system as you suggest.

We have so many tickets that's not an issue. The limit is how much time you can be playing, because if you're using kobans... well, that's very stupid.

[Pelinor]

10 minutes ago, Kenrae said:

We have so many tickets that's not an issue. The limit is how much time you can be playing, because if you're using kobans... well, that's very stupid.

Your club is very blessed, in my club the average number of tickets is 112 per player! The best we have ever done is a 132 ticket average. Granted, we have several in the mid hundreds but they are the exception.

Oh, and I agree with you on spending the kobans even if I am forced into doing so because of my work schedule.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Pelinor

[GeorgeMTO]

High level players drown in tickets from PoPs, so any changed system has to ensure that they don't abuse it either. I'm hardly alone in this stack

[Eexa]

Il y a 2 heures, GeorgeMTO a dit :

High level players drown in tickets from PoPs, so any changed system has to ensure that they don't abuse it either. I'm hardly alone in this stack

Not sure this is an issue as all these players already have the girls anyway?

For now, I won't be able to contribute at all to the numbers crushing because nobody plays the CC anymore... Really well done Kinkoid! 😠