ZackMacKenzie Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 I am not a member of the Dojo. Consider that before decided whether to read on, or to move on to the next post. On 12/12/2018 at 12:59 PM, Ninonator said: It's debatable whether using exploits like this is cheating, but I sure get your point I really don't think it is debatable, unless you are referring to an internal debate you had over whether exploiting this dynamic was justified/justifiable or not. Preach mode on. In fact, IMHO what IS debatable is whether you violated the Peaceful Warriors Dojo Code of Honor — see items 2 and 4. You may not face being banned from the game but you might face being booted from the club, though that is absolutely not my call. The fact that no one has of yet exercised item 5 seems to indicate that you are safe, and perhaps I am the one guilty of violating item 3 by expressing an opinion that differs from yours. Right or wrong often isn't the decision point for people. Instead, it's a cost-benefit analysis of advantage vs chance of getting caught x consequences of getting caught. I suspect that's what you've done here. I used to be a high school teacher and the thing I understood least, and that rankled my feathers most, was a pervasive belief among students that criminal actions weren't illegal unless you got caught. To be clear, they didn't say that it wasn't wrong, held no consequences, or was personally advantageous — they said it wasn't illegal. I was completely unable to get through to any of the students that expressed this position. I sincerely hope for their sake that they changed their minds before the system caught up with them and made them pay for it. That said, if the system caught up to them first I have no sympathy for them either. Perhaps I'm a dinosaur — confession: I might be old enough to qualify — that would have been more comfortable in the era when sportsmanship mattered and gamesmanship was not tolerated, but either way, what you describe is NOT gaming the system because the system doesn't intentionally provide the behavior you're describing. I see gamesmanship as a slippery slope, and by my reckoning, this is a great example of why I see it that way. This exploit is an error in a perpetually updated system where we are all de facto beta testers*. Fixing one problem often introduces another unforeseen problem. The expectation is that we report everything we find that doesn't feel like an intended feature. This is what developers rely on. By your analysis, it only works for tokens and not any of the other timed-release assets which pretty clearly indicates that it is an unintended bug, not a feature, and your calling it an "exploit" cements it. Again, this is just one person's point of view, and admittedly a person with little tolerance for this sort of thing, so taking it with an entire salt mine might be more appropriate than with a grain of salt. I recognize that my opinion really only has value to me, so all are free to dismiss it without consequence. If any are interested in why a non-member would even bother to chime in...I very much like the idea of a Code of Honor for a club. Had I met the experience level required for entry I would have applied. My hope was that at some inevitable future date when clubs expanded and I had surpassed the bar of entry that the club still existed and still upheld those ideals. Preach mode off. * I hold a degree in Computer Science, and have worked as an engineer (software). Ethics are explicitly and contractually required for these fields, so my attitude toward beta testing is likely influenced by my professional background and training. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natstar Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 3 hours ago, casey said: Thanks for the info and your help but I fought you long ago ( the stitches should be coming out any day now) You mentioned "ninja'ed", i think I'm going to be doing that to Alex who is also a member of the Peaceful Warriors Unless Boogerstick gets a move on he is going to need to spend some serious Kobans if he wants to finish in the top 4 I've haven't had any contact with him but he may be sitting out this season because last time I checked he was below the promotion range @ 19th place Just to let you know your not doing me any favors by weakening yourself, if any of the players ahead of me have fighting credits that they can use against you you are making my task more difficult Congrats, To bad Boogerstick did not play he could have knocked Yuzuru who used kobans to use up all his battles 4 days ago out of the top 4. I guess he wanted to stay in Sexpert 3 for a better reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chthugha Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 3 hours ago, natstar said: Congrats, To bad Boogerstick did not play he could have knocked Yuzuru who used kobans to use up all his battles 4 days ago out of the top 4. I guess he wanted to stay in Sexpert 3 for a better reward. He already said he was skipping the first round of Dicktator I. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoogerStick Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 Yeah, very happy to sit out the first D1. I picked up some equipment upgrades from pachinko so I'm more competitive against the top-tier players now, but still don't need to go and get stomped by every player in the game who can beat me. Much better to wait until there's a bit of a spread 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jelom Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 I though the same as you @BoogerStick I could have promoted to D1 but in my case with only 207k ego I would have been struggling even to get a intermediate position, so better to stay in S3 where I can assure a 2-4th position, or so I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHarry Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 Same, but with 202k. No point promoting as we would just be there as fodder to give others exp. Im not promoting until I have a shot at winning, maybe finishing 2-4 in the process Ill live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casey Posted December 27, 2018 Share Posted December 27, 2018 Finished 3rd and was promoted to D1 a preliminary survey of the field is not very promising for me There are 120 players, and with an Ego of 220000 I will be a struggling to finish in the top 1/3 of the league I think I'll spend the season collecting easy XP points and saving all my boosters for the following season both Jelom and Boogerstick have the right tactics for this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Wave Posted December 29, 2018 Author Share Posted December 29, 2018 Wow it's nice to see all the activity around here! Keep it up mates! Special thanks go to @ZackMacKenzie who I assume put a lot of time and thoughts into his detailed post while at the same time being very respectful. Btw. I read your post twice and wouldn't call it preach mode. 😉 At any time it was obvious to me that you state an opinion and don't intend to dogmatize, claim to be right or forcefully change other people's behavior. This is a great example of good communication right there and I hope to meet many people like you. You don't violate any of the rules in my opinion, especially not rule #3. And regarding the Code of Honor (which I created, I'm the leader of this club): Thank you very much for calling me out on the Code! Looking back at my post that provoked this discussion about exploiting the game I see that I was doing something wrong (it was poor choice of words at least). I did report the bug on Discord the same day I posted it here, so your assumption is correct that I know the very nature of it being an exploit. I too want the game to work properly and to help fixing unintended errors. My post didn't show any of this though and today it rather looks like a conceited call to exploit the game to me. Sorry for that! I also totally understand your take on the mindset you see/saw your students apply in which something is not illegal unless you get caught. I agree! Illegal activity for me is defined as behavior against the law or any other set of rules you agreed on in advance. I don't like that and I don't want that or encourage people to do it. Illegal activity is illegal no matter if you get caught and punished for it or not. My idea towards life is all about obeying the rules, but only the rules that are clearly defined and written down. Everything else for me will always be interpretation and selective perception. For example words like "fairness" or "sportsmanship" have many meanings to different people. To use a less controversial example: Is it "fair" to use your browser navigation to save some time with villain fights? Not everybody does that, so you gain advantage over those who don't. It may even cause you not to spend Kobans on the 10x fight button which effectively hurts Kinkoid's wallet. They probably don't intend for people to do it, so is it fair? But what if nobody is directly or indirectly harmed by this? What if I used the time and money I saved to help people in need? Okay the last one probably sounds hypocritical. Yet it's very interesting how discussions and whole philosophy books can be filled here (btw. I'd buy and read a book about the philosophic questions raised by Hentai Heroes, if anybody wants to write one 😁). All I can say for sure is that it is not illegal by my definition I stated above (which I hope is somewhat correct). It's up to everyone of us to decide how to treat those "opportunities" (for the lack of a better word) when they present themselves and whether we actively search for them. That said: I see there is a difference between exploiting bugs that are obviously not intended to be there (e.g. the token refill bug) and outsmarting intended systems in place (e.g. the browser navigation vs in game navigation). I understand how bug exploitation or not reporting on bugs is harming the game and thanks to your post @ZackMacKenzie I'm reconsidering a lot of my actions. I'm very happy you took the time to tell us about your background and your thoughts, and I highly appreciate your call on the Code of Honor. It's exactly posts like yours that will keep the rules in place and cause us to remember and reflect on our agreements and principles. This in my opinion can only strengthen the team spirit and leadership we should represent in order to be the great club we aspire to be! I'm glad you considered joining the club because of the Code of Honor. Actually there is still the idea of finding or founding another club to cooperate with based on the same principles. If you found a great club with a code already, please let me know. And if not... maybe you want to consider creating your own club with a similar (or even the same) Code of Honor and work together with us on a bright future in which it's possible to extend or even merge the clubs. I'd happy to be in one team with you, even if for now it only is a team on this forum thread. Have a great time everybody. And if you read all of this... wow, thank you! Now get up and enjoy some real life outside, please 😉 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casey Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 In my opinion the practice of purposely weakening one's team and then informing other members of their club via club chat is a bigger question of sportsmanship and integrity then getting extra fighting credits due to a game software bug. In one instance all players had the opportunity to find this "bug" and take advantage of it. Also the advantage was just a saving of Kobans for refills and would not affect league standings unless that team was so strong as to go undefeated in league play. In other words if your team wasn't strong enough it didn't matter how many fighting credits you had. However the practice of weakening your team so as other club members can get extra points in league play is unfair and vis a vie your club policy principles should be put under scrutiny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chthugha Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 30 minutes ago, casey said: In my opinion the practice of purposely weakening one's team and then informing other members of their club via club chat is a bigger question of sportsmanship and integrity then getting extra fighting credits due to a game software bug. In one instance all players had the opportunity to find this "bug" and take advantage of it. Also the advantage was just a saving of Kobans for refills and would not affect league standings unless that team was so strong as to go undefeated in league play. In other words if your team wasn't strong enough it didn't matter how many fighting credits you had. However the practice of weakening your team so as other club members can get extra points in league play is unfair and vis a vie your club policy principles should be put under scrutiny Actually, that's where you're wrong. I never buy refills if it doesn't bring me more kobans at the end, but it can very well be that I finished lower because someone else used this bug and could therefore do more fights. I always lose some fights here and there, and I doubt that I am the only one there (for starters I lose fights right at the start because the reset is at 5am). That is per default at a disadvantage of someone who doesn't know about it, or who doesn't want to cheat. With respect to the making themselves weaker for the benefit of club members... Anybody else can also spot that, because it takes 4 hours to update. So unless you are sleeping at that time, it is something you can't really miss. I never fight the strongest opponents at the start, because I know some people make themselves weaker when they are finished. It's at least something others can anticipate on happening (I caught Makuro when he was doing that 2 seasons ago). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casey Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Chthugha said: Actually, that's where you're wrong. I never buy refills if it doesn't bring me more kobans at the end, but it can very well be that I finished lower because someone else used this bug and could therefore do more fights. I always lose some fights here and there, and I doubt that I am the only one there (for starters I lose fights right at the start because the reset is at 5am). That is per default at a disadvantage of someone who doesn't know about it, or who doesn't want to cheat. With respect to the making themselves weaker for the benefit of club members... Anybody else can also spot that, because it takes 4 hours to update. So unless you are sleeping at that time, it is something you can't really miss. I never fight the strongest opponents at the start, because I know some people make themselves weaker when they are finished. It's at least something others can anticipate on happening (I caught Makuro when he was doing that 2 seasons ago). I myself only buy refills when I know I can finish in the top 4 places otherwise it is a waste of Kobans I disagree with your opinion RE: the weakening of teams because everyone can find out. Non club members who are not informed of this situation must scan through the whole league of 100+ players to become aware, I don't think this is an ongoing season long practice for many so it is unfair What I do is scan all the teams right at the start of the season to access my overall chances and then formulate my tactics for the season If some strong team temporarily weakens itself after the first 3 hours of the season I will not know unless someone informs me. Additionally it is my belief that the majority players are unaware of this "weakening tactic" and A would not be looking for it and B. would not be happy about players who indulged in this move How would you feel if for example: you fought and lost against a player with a 235000 ego and that same player had an ego of 200000 4 hours later. is it bad timing on your part or something else As for fighting strong teams last, I always fight the strongest teams that I can beat first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chthugha Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 10 minutes ago, casey said: I myself only buy refills when I know I can finish in the top 4 places otherwise it is a waste of Kobans I disagree with your opinion RE: the weakening of teams because everyone can find out. Non club members who are not informed of this situation must scan through the whole league of 100+ players to become aware, I don't think this is an ongoing season long practice for many so it is unfair What I do is scan all the teams right at the start of the season to access my overall chances and then formulate my tactics for the season If some strong team temporarily weakens itself after the first 3 hours of the season I will not know unless someone informs me. Additionally it is my belief that the majority players are unaware of this "weakening tactic" and A would not be looking for it and B. would not be happy about players who indulged in this move How would you feel if for example: you fought and lost against a player with a 235000 ego and that same player had an ego of 200000 4 hours later. is it bad timing on your part or something else As for fighting strong teams last, I always fight the strongest teams that I can beat first. At least you are losing due to your own tactics and not thanks to someone else cheating. That's the difference. I mean, you say yourself that you know about the practice. That just means you have to scan the players you can't beat every time you do league battles. Like I said, it takes at least 4 hours to change it back, and gives you a chance to abuse as well, which is not the case with an unknown bug exploited by a few people. Unsportsmanlike behaviour is always better than plain cheating in my eyes, simply because you can react to that and not to cheating. Cheating is and always will be the lowest kind of unsportsmanlike behaviour. (Also, this was going on before clubs were a thing. It was even going on before leagues were a thing. It's how Fran and Lipton were screwed over in the overall mojo ranking. It's not a club problem.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackMacKenzie Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 6 hours ago, casey said: Additionally it is my belief that the majority players are unaware of this "weakening tactic" and A would not be looking for it and B. would not be happy about players who indulged in this move I didn't know that people intentionally did this until I figured it out by seeing it happen. I saw it happen because I regularly (time permitting) examine my 'betters' in the pool to see if: A I managed to outgrow them, B they had changed classes or gear and were temporarily weaker, C they were caught with a less-than-ideal Arena team in place, or D they had boosters that expired. C might be confusing for some — I often run with secondary girls in the Arena once my primary team has nothing left to gain from fights. On occasion that means my hero loses some XP, but far more often my harem gets additional XP and Affinity, which I value more. I assumed that if I did it, it was likely that some others did it too. B and C both describe self-advantageous strategies that happen to create advantage for opponents as a side-effect and D is a totally organic way for a hero's power to go backwards. So I already had reason to trawl the pool looking for happy hunting grounds before I saw someone running with 3 'virgin' girls (0-star, L1). If anyone is trying to break the threshold of a reward tier (1st, 4th, 15th, etc.) I would totally recommend closely monitoring the more powerful opponents to fight them in a moment of weakness. One could argue that the fact that people quite innocently may (temporarily) put themselves at a disadvantage in Leagues by maximizing their advantage in other areas that doing it for any reason, including helping others, isn't an offensive behavior. Also, after reading the forum thread that Urist started in April (Non-Defensive Pact) I think the global benefits of this practice probably outweigh the costs, but that is a totally subjective valuation. Finally, as a result of the tie-breaking formula, there comes a point where the ONLY way to get 1st place is to spend kobans. The tie-breaker (for now at least, could get changed) is who got there first, so whenever a pool contains more than 1 player who could achieve the maximum score (~900) it's just a race to the finish. This may not be economically viable for most Leagues, but the higher up you go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackMacKenzie Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 11 hours ago, Ninonator said: Special thanks go to @ZackMacKenzie who I assume put a lot of time and thoughts into his detailed post while at the same time being very respectful. Thank you for the feedback. It's nice (and rare) to be appreciated. "Preach mode" was more about the length of the post than the intended tone. If the forum had supported it I would have had that 'warning' replace "Reveal Hidden Text" as I do elsewhere. I do try to put time and thought into posts which often runs afoul of TL;DR, hence hiding all but the basic gist. Health and Hentai! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casey Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 In the season just ended I was fighting for a top 4 finish when the league leader who had finished earlier weakened himself for the last 1/2 day of competition I had fought this league leader on the second day of the season when he was @ full strength, and to say I would have been upset if the players I was pursuing managed to hang on because of this "weakening tactic" therefore allowing them to get extra undeserved points would be an understatement. These kind of maneuvers can foster much ill will and hopefully the old expression "what goes around comes around'' need not come into play Players should consider the implications of their game play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Wave Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) Hey everybody, the Peaceful Warriors now have a discord server over here: https://discord.gg/rmTxhg8 You're all invited to join and discuss strategies with us there. 🙂 Have a great time everybody! Edited January 8, 2019 by Z-Wave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chthugha Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Wonder why we would join a discord server of an elitist club that doesn't let the normies in 🤔 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Wave Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 Thanks for the feedback @Chthugha Well... the way I see it we let anybody in (e.g. in this thread and in the Discord Server), but since we're limited to 20 members in the club (and full since November) how could we let anybody else in there? As soon as we get to have unlimited amount of members, be sure anybody (also the ones you call normies 😉) can join the club (if they obey the Code of Honor of course). Until then we as "elitist" club have to be selective somehow in case there's a 21st slot available, and I wouldn't like to set the club to "restricted" and have people ask for permission to join, so we're rather "open" but only to lvl. 320+ players (or whatever limits apply in the future) who can join us instantly. Please don't get me wrong: This is not perfect by any means, it's just the best idea I was able to come up with for now. The "restricted" status for me comes with this connotation of "you need to beg to join us", but this could also just be me being biased. Right now no way of dealing with club settings really satisfies me. From every available option this might however be the best. Do you think there's a better way to deal with the limits the game has right now? This question goes to everybody, especially members of high ranking clubs like Club non officiel, Les Rois des Reines, Kirito Harem, dorcel and all the others who I'm sure are dealing with similar thoughts here. 👍 Looking forward to your feedback, I'm happy to learn whatever better strategy there is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saberbholt Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 On 12/1/2018 at 11:13 AM, Chthugha said: I think you are restricting yourself too much, but that's my point of view on the matter. You say it is open, when in fact it is a very elitist club to get into. It is in fact only open to competitive League/Arena players, otherwise you wouldn't be able to be at that level already. We will get all kinds of features for the club, and one of them will be about making it possible to get more members in your club. So if you want to be the biggest, with the highest level (which is the only thing you seem to care for at the moment), it might be a better way to allow everyone. Your club already has the feeling of an elitist club, and it will be hard to convince lower level player to join once you get your member count increase. Anyway, those are just some ramblings of a fool. I feel it's more important to create a club with a nice feeling, than a club with currently the highest level. I completely agree with you Chthugha, in fact this club is the perfect example of why I did not want the function of clubs in the game and what a club should never be. A club should be a place where you can have fun, talk to people with your same interests and help or be helped in the game, not a place where you get yourself thinking about whether or not you reach elitist goals and that obliges you to buy Kobans so that above all can its founder advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Wave Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, saberbholt said: A club should be a place where you can have fun, talk to people with your same interests and help or be helped in the game That's exactly what I'd like to achieve as well. It's actually the main reason for creating this thread and the discord server, because in the club you can only share content with 19 other players (no matter their level, clubs as of now are restricted to 20 people). But here and on discord you can share thoughts and strategies and have fun times with basically every player of the game (even if they play on another server). I hope this attitude is visible, otherwise I sincerely screwed this up. 😂 Edited January 8, 2019 by Z-Wave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chthugha Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 The best idea I could come up with, is to let as many people in. I just promoted it here on the forum as a forum members club to draw in people I know that will interact. I can tell you that the club is vibrant and alive, and we are all looking forward to what is next, without really going after being the best. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casey Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 5 hours ago, Chthugha said: The best idea I could come up with, is to let as many people in. . So your all for letting in the riff raff If that's the case I'm not going to renew my golf membership to Mar Logo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chthugha Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 if you mean low level players, then yes. will come in handy when the new features arrive in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniele Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 On 1/8/2019 at 11:14 PM, Z-Wave said: That's exactly what I'd like to achieve as well. Well, not really 🤣 What you (and the other clubs you mentioned) want is to be the top-level club of the game, otherwise you wouldn't need a level restriction. Chthugha's club can certainly be described that way, but yours... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Wave Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Daniele said: Well, not really 🤣 What you (and the other clubs you mentioned) want is to be the top-level club of the game, otherwise you wouldn't need a level restriction. Chthugha's club can certainly be described that way, but yours... I wonder why I can't want and have both: A top-level club and a lot of fun with great, helpful people. I don't want to decide between the two, so I just take it all 😉 12 hours ago, Chthugha said: if you mean low level players, then yes. will come in handy when the new features arrive in the game. How exactly does it come in handy, or better asked: What is the advantage of your mixed club over a top level players club? You once mentioned that when we can have more players, it will be easier for you to convince new players to join. I agree since you'll have a much larger pool to pull from, but I'm also optimistic to find enough high level players myself to join in all the new available slots in our club. So if we assume the club will always be full, I'd rather have it filled with high level players because it will be more competitive and probably gain better rewards. Here's a quote from "The Future of Clubs" post back in November: Quote Club’s levels? Yes, we are working on implementing the ability for the players to invest in their clubs to upgrade it and make it even shinier and sexier. To do so, players will be able to provide donations in kobans or ymens to help improve their clubs. Apart from the boost to the stats that we already spoke about, the main interest in upgrading players clubs is being able to augment the number of members. As the level of your club will grow, you will be able to recruit more and more members, that way, increasing the possibilities of each member. That sounds to me like clubs with high level players (and therefore most likely much more overall resources) will be able to level their club quicker, hence be able to host more members than low or mixed level clubs. Rewarding high level players better relative to low level players is a common pattern in F2P games (and also very much so in HH if you look at leagues, contests, the ToF and the arena). Nothing of this is confirmed as of now, but in the end I see only advantages in striving for high end clubs. I don't mean this as disrespect towards lower level players. On the contrary: I want to invite everybody no matter the level to be part of the community and share their thoughts through this forum and on Discord. As I said before: If it was possible, I would like for everybody to join our club. Since it's not possible, I'll stick to what seems to be the most beneficial club setup without losing out on the fun, vitality and great spirit that every well-conducted club provides. I'm happy we disagree on this topic though. This way we can have this discussion and benefit from it. I'm looking forward to your reply, wouldn't be the first time I learn something new and even change my opinion. 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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