_shal_ Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 On 10/11/2018 at 5:09 AM, _shal_ said: On a sidenote, 75th place in my Wanker 2 bracket finished with 285 points, so it would have been possible to win kobans here even if you don't win a single battle (297 losses -> 297 points). Avoiding demotion only required 147 points. And as it happens, this week in my W2 bracket: Even the next-weakest players are significantly ahead of him (more offense and defense and around 3k more ego), so I'm not sure he's been able to defeat a single opponent even with the first-move advantage, BUT...he's diligently fighting all the losses and will almost certainly pick up kobans for placing in the top 75 if he keeps it up to the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chthugha Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 24 minutes ago, Taka007 said: I will finally make it into Wankers III. Last time I failed one the last day because no one I could defeat was left. This time there are only 5 players stronger than me. Yaaaay. But there is one thing I just don´t get: Place 1 in my league has 140 points more than me and I only wasted like 3-4 "fight points" so far, so at least 2x refills have been used by him (on day 1 already). He is pretty weak, so I´m not sure he will even finish at first place. But even if he did win... what point is there getting first place if you have to use more kobans than you get? I´ve seen this every league so far. First place always used 2-6 refills to finish first. Can anyone explain to me why? I mean you spend more than you gain (at least in Wanker). The result is a first place who ends the league with a deficit, a 2nd place who missed out on potential Koban gain and probably 5th place missing out on additional Koban. So multipkle player lose if one player decides to go mad at Koban spending for no apparent gain... Am I missing something that makes first place worth koban spamming? You are missing absolutely nothing. There are a couple of reasons why people would use kobans early on, but none of them involve winning the league. It could be early XP gain (maybe for the ToF weekly ranking or a level up) or just simply wanting to feel good about yourself by getting a high ranking early on (only to fall back later in the league). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blain Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 27 minutes ago, Taka007 said: Am I missing something that makes first place worth koban spamming? If you're chasing kobans, there's no advantage to spending kobans and reducing the reward you'll get As for other reasons why people do this, it's not worth overthinking other people's motivations. Some people can be taught, others have to learn My opinion is the people that do this lack the ability to critically think their choices. They just do it because they want to feel successful by being in 1st place right now. It doesn't matter how they finish. They reached 1st place, and that's all that matters to them. Now the illusion of their self-image being important has been affirmed in the fantasy world they live in, which they have substituted for reality Or it could be that dumbasses gonna dumbass. Either way, they're not people worth the time and effort of understanding. I have more important things to worry about and can't spare the time for them 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sombre Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Nobody play in my league. This is funny. Seem than people don't like this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jelom Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) There are some possible explanations for koban spending in the leagues: - getting a lot of experience concentrated in some days to win some contests or place well in ToF. - to assure one of the top positions reaching there first in case of tie, for the kobans or to assure promotion. - and some people just want to win no matter what ... in my opinion the only partially rational explanation is the first of course, all the other cases always incur in a loss of kobans. Edited October 14, 2018 by jelom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habi Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) On 10/11/2018 at 1:01 PM, dirty harry said: If there's one S I group now of 180 players and promotion over the leagues stays the same then there wil be 360 players the coming week and 540 players the week after that. If they divide that into brackets of 108 we will see the 1st sexpert II tier in three weeks. (so get used to queen Fran)👸 Anyways, I didn't expect to do very well in W III. But still.... due to some unexpected wins in the end... And this weeks W III looks like a breeze On 10/11/2018 at 1:24 PM, BoogerStick said: @Habi No worries, I didn't mean to sound defensive. As I calculate it, next week there should be 5 Sexpert I leagues, 114 to 117 players in each, and still no promotions. Then in 2 weeks, 11 leagues with 111 to 116 players each, ending with the first promotions to Sexpert II. You're assuming there are still 12 Wanker III leagues this week, so another 180 coming up, but the last round of promotions from Wanker II means there are actually be 27 or 28 Wanker III right now. @Ninonator and i made a google sheet about league progression: (main credit goes to nino, i just tweaked it a little) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p6gTsb97tH5HHhjf-7K-rkkAVRREP71He6BKUs60TQc/edit?usp=sharing note 1) this sheet already contains all planned tiers up to dicktator 3. however we don't know when they will be released so every prediction after s2 may be inaccurate. note 2) this sheet does not account for new players joining w1 every season note 3) this sheet does not and can not account for additional demotions due to having 0 points. note 4) there is a second tab where demotions were kicked out of the formulae. since we don't have a confirmed demotion yet we think it might either be bugged or deactivated on purpose to enable faster overall player progression. if the demotions still don't work we will have 6 s1 groups with 105 people each next week. if they do work it will be 5 s1 groups with 114 people each. so with that information we can ourselves determine whether demotions are active or when they were activated. the spreadsheet will be updated accordingly. note 4a) considering the fast deterioration of the wanker groups without demotions they HAVE to activate/fix them sometime. let's see how long it lasts. (i doubt new players reaching lvl20 can match up that deterioration) Edited October 14, 2018 by Habi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_shal_ Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Just to add, one thing that might be working is the demotion of zero-point players. My dormant extra accounts in Wanker 1 have always received rewards according to the very last place (102nd in the most recent week), even if their listed league standing was higher than that before the league finished, i.e. there were other zero-pointers below them. So that indicates some active special treatment for those on zero points. Of course, this could simply mean that they're removed from the koban reward tiers, not actually demoted according to their last place finish. (Maybe I'll have to move two of these accounts up to Wanker 2 for next season to test it...) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoogerStick Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 13 hours ago, Habi said: @Ninonator and i made a google sheet about league progression: (main credit goes to nino, i just tweaked it a little) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p6gTsb97tH5HHhjf-7K-rkkAVRREP71He6BKUs60TQc/edit?usp=sharing Heh, I did it with a dinky bash script. One other thing that I don't think anyone can model right now is the increased number of WII leagues as a result of inactive players in WI. (If there's a billion players who are inactive, then WI will have many many leagues and anyone who makes any effort at all will end up in the top-15 compared to all the zero-point players and get a promotion. This increases the number of promotions relative to active player numbers, with a reduced effect on to WIII and upwards over time.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer_X Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Sicerely, I have to say that I find the behaviour of people that don't compete to get demoted and get better result next week simply absurd. They waste a quantity of resources that could grant them at least a medium result and the probability to face more even matches the following week, and what is more they hinder the progress of lower tier players by reducing in the following week the points they could have made, because they are too strong for lower rank tiers (and they get demoted in place of someone other that would have deserved the demotion based on his overall performance). This may be harsh, but I have to say that personally I find this play tactic absolutely unfair, to not say something worse. I am not a pvp lover, but I am daily gathering all that I can in the leagues, even now that I am in a Wanker III where chances are high of my demotion despite my efforts. But at least at the end of the week I will have gathered quite a number of experience points and if I'll fail I will be able to say "I have tried, but the odds were too high against me" I think this matter is quite important and should be addressed quickly by the devs. If it depended on me, non competing player should be directly expelled from the league, or at least suspeded for a period and then forced to restart from Wanker I, better if with some kind of penalty. Anyway, one way or another, this matter should be addressed to avoid behaviors detrimental to other players game experience. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythos Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 13 minutes ago, Observer_X said: Sicerely, I have to say that I find the behaviour of people that don't compete to get demoted and get better result next week simply absurd. The poblem here are the disproportionate rewards between first places in lower tiers and almost all places in upper tiers, this is the absurd thing that devs should address quickly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_shal_ Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 5 hours ago, Observer_X said: I think this matter is quite important and should be addressed quickly by the devs. If it depended on me, non competing player should be directly expelled from the league, or at least suspeded for a period and then forced to restart from Wanker I, better if with some kind of penalty. Anyway, one way or another, this matter should be addressed to avoid behaviors detrimental to other players game experience. Can you give a definition of "non competing" that could be automatically and accurately verified by Kinkoid's systems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign RHB Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 There is great wonderment as to why ppl use kobans in the league. I think I've found a valid reason. So far I've not lost a single fight in this W III season and I probably won't. So I can reach the maximum score. The problem is that I'm currently in 20th place due to the fact that seasons start at an enervating 5.00 a.m. in Western Europe as opposed to a relaxed 10.00 p.m. in some places and I missed the first few hours of the season. However, only 4 ppl above me - and maybe some behind me - have a score that is divisable by three which means only 4 ppl can get a perfect score, some of which have clearly already bought refill(s). If two or more players can reach the perfect score the first one there takes 1st prize. The only question is: how much are they willing to spend? For me it is useless as trying to reach top spot first would require more kobans than it is worth. I'm pondering whether to go for 4th or 16th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoogerStick Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 That's true, but for it to be economically (kobanwise) useful to get #1 you're only getting a couple of full refills, so why would you use them in the first days instead of waiting for the last hours? Of course there's got to be other reasons than pure economic rationality. In S1, #8 is the first with below 1000 points, and #1 has 1305 points. They're not racing for promotion, the koban cost has been far beyond what #1 is worth, so I guess it's just being #1 on a leader table. From that perspective it's brilliance from kinkoid. 🤔 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habi Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 14 hours ago, BoogerStick said: Heh, I did it with a dinky bash script. One other thing that I don't think anyone can model right now is the increased number of WII leagues as a result of inactive players in WI. (If there's a billion players who are inactive, then WI will have many many leagues and anyone who makes any effort at all will end up in the top-15 compared to all the zero-point players and get a promotion. This increases the number of promotions relative to active player numbers, with a reduced effect on to WIII and upwards over time.) i didn't go over the script in detail. modeling player behaviour can never be 100% accurate. tbh i doubt the influence of what you describe is noticeable. maybe it was in w2 but it deteriorates pretty fast. i tried to do some math (deterioration of influence by factor 6.67 each tier) but i'm not quite sure how to put it so it makes sense. the basic idea would be that only every ~300 players in w1 would make a difference in s1 (6.67^3). (my reply in the other thread supports that when adding 5000 w1 players the number of s1 players 3 weeks after rises by 15 but it seems to only work out for larger numbers) 1 hour ago, BoogerStick said: That's true, but for it to be economically (kobanwise) useful to get #1 you're only getting a couple of full refills, so why would you use them in the first days instead of waiting for the last hours? Of course there's got to be other reasons than pure economic rationality. In S1, #8 is the first with below 1000 points, and #1 has 1305 points. They're not racing for promotion, the koban cost has been far beyond what #1 is worth, so I guess it's just being #1 on a leader table. From that perspective it's brilliance from kinkoid. 🤔 that's simply a matter of e-peen. and i mean real world e-peen because buying a first place (and everyone having the least clue of the game mechanics knows which wins can be/are bought and which aren't) can only be interpreted as showing off how much cash you have. well let them be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casey Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 14 hours ago, Observer_X said: I think this matter is quite important and should be addressed quickly by the devs. If it depended on me, non competing player should be directly expelled from the league, or at least suspeded for a period and then forced to restart from Wanker I, better if with some kind of penalty. Anyway, one way or another, this matter should be addressed to avoid behaviors detrimental to other players game experience. It is called tactics, in just about every other gaming or sporting activity the players engage in actions to give themselves a winning edge. Why should this game be any different . You want a level playing field than good luck finding one in this game world or in the real one. You don't like the way some players play, the answer is simple, get better, get stronger, and then crush them Patience is what is needed and a strategy that you can employ to reach your goals When I started this game back in August of 2017 my goal was to have the strongest pvp team possible and now that the Developers have introduced league play my team is benefitting. Don't complain adapt and remember it takes time and it won't happen for you over night. As for your suggestion of penalties why should other players be punished for having better tactics or for being invested in this game longer than you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniele Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 5 hours ago, BoogerStick said: Of course there's got to be other reasons than pure economic rationality. In S1, #8 is the first with below 1000 points, and #1 has 1305 points. They're not racing for promotion, the koban cost has been far beyond what #1 is worth, so I guess it's just being #1 on a leader table. From that perspective it's brilliance from kinkoid If we talking about the current S1 league, another reason could be that for some players exp is more important than kobans. Since there are 180 players you need to spend a lot of kobans in refills to fight every possible battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer_X Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 18 hours ago, Mythos said: The poblem here are the disproportionate rewards between first places in lower tiers and almost all places in upper tiers, this is the absurd thing that devs should address quickly. Seems they had somewhat in the last patch by adding more tiers in the 16-75 range, we will see the numbers and then we will be able to judge. 12 hours ago, _shal_ said: Can you give a definition of "non competing" that could be automatically and accurately verified by Kinkoid's systems? The first thing that comes to my mind is quite simplicistic, namely establishing a threshold of minimum quantity of battles fought inside the league to be considered an "active competitor". Moreover, as the devs for sure have at their disposal the online time of players, they have for sure the possibility to take this parameter into account, elaborating a balanced meter to differentiate players who participate actively from the ones who does not. 4 hours ago, casey said: It is called tactics, in just about every other gaming or sporting activity the players engage in actions to give themselves a winning edge. Why should this game be any different . Gaming and sporting activities have rules that make them balanced for all the participants. I simply stated my opinion saying that to have balanced leagues the leagues's rules should not allow that kind of behaviour. if you don't agree, you are surely free to state your opinion, but if you're trying to convince me that something that I consider foul play (something that is prohibited by the rules in gaming and sporting activities ) is simply tactic, then know you're far from your target as Pluto is far from the Sun. 4 hours ago, casey said: You want a level playing field than good luck finding one in this game world or in the real one. Then I should judge myself a very lucky person, as i do group gaming activity weekly and I know quite a number of fair players. 4 hours ago, casey said: You don't like the way some players play, the answer is simple, get better, get stronger, and then crush them Patience is what is needed and a strategy that you can employ to reach your goals As I said before, based on my play style I am doing the best I can in the game, but... 4 hours ago, casey said: When I started this game back in August of 2017 my goal was to have the strongest pvp team possible and now that the Developers have introduced league play my team is benefitting. Don't complain adapt and remember it takes time and it won't happen for you over night. ... as I already stated here and elsewhere neither I am a pvp lover, nor I see a good reason (by my point of view) to become one. I play the game in the way I judge it is best suited for me, as I think every player does, or at least should do. If your style includes adaptability, I am happy for you. Mine does not, and as being not an adaptable person is not my fault (I am what I am), I don't find anything bad in complaining for the situation (posed I don't use on purpose offensive words) if I find something that in my humble opinion should be corrected. 4 hours ago, casey said: As for your suggestion of penalties why should other players be punished for having better tactics or for being invested in this game longer than you. That was only my own opinion, and I am well aware that something like that would be hardly implemented in the game. For the rest, i think i have made clear that in my personal opinion the one mentioned in my previous post is not a better tactic. And I never said that player who played HH long before me should be penalized, and if you get that meaning, either I explained my point bad or you got it wrong. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casey Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 27 minutes ago, Observer_X said: Seems they had somewhat in the last patch by adding more tiers in the 16-75 range, we will see the numbers and then we will be able to judge. The first thing that comes to my mind is quite simplicistic, namely establishing a threshold of minimum quantity of battles fought inside the league to be considered an "active competitor". Moreover, as the devs for sure have at their disposal the online time of players, they have for sure the possibility to take this parameter into account, elaborating a balanced meter to differentiate players who participate actively from the ones who does not. Gaming and sporting activities have rules that make them balanced for all the participants. I simply stated my opinion saying that to have balanced leagues the leagues's rules should not allow that kind of behaviour. if you don't agree, you are surely free to state your opinion, but if you're trying to convince me that something that I consider foul play (something that is prohibited by the rules in gaming and sporting activities ) is simply tactic, then know you're far from your target as Pluto is far from the Sun. Then I should judge myself a very lucky person, as i do group gaming activity weekly and I know quite a number of fair players. As I said before, based on my play style I am doing the best I can in the game, but... ... as I already stated here and elsewhere neither I am a pvp lover, nor I see a good reason (by my point of view) to become one. I play the game in the way I judge it is best suited for me, as I think every player does, or at least should do. If your style includes adaptability, I am happy for you. Mine does not, and as being not an adaptable person is not my fault (I am what I am), I don't find anything bad in complaining for the situation (posed I don't use on purpose offensive words) if I find something that in my humble opinion should be corrected. That was only my own opinion, and I am well aware that something like that would be hardly implemented in the game. For the rest, i think i have made clear that in my personal opinion the one mentioned in my previous post is not a better tactic. And I never said that player who played HH long before me should be penalized, and if you get that meaning, either I explained my point bad or you got it wrong. I believe I understand your prospective, but I think it is kind of Utopian in reality. If your hinting at cheating I agree with you, but most games have "grey" areas that depending on your scruples can be considered cheating or fair play based on your moral compass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer_X Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 39 minutes ago, casey said: I believe I understand your prospective, but I think it is kind of Utopian in reality. Well, you know, I remember someone in my past saying "Hit high if you can, sometimes dreams come true if you are lucky and believe in them strongly" 41 minutes ago, casey said: If your hinting at cheating I agree with you, but most games have "grey" areas that depending on your scruples can be considered cheating or fair play based on your moral compass. I absolutely agree on that. What I must admit is that I can't stand people who exploit those grey areas in a way that damages other players play. Call it need of fair play or moral compass, call me the good one who gets the shit thrown at his back, it doesn't matter. Again, I am what I am, I feel good with myself and I would not be different. Don't take me wrong, I'm not the would-be paladin that is willing to fight for the cause. I'm not the type. Simply, this is a game, and it should be a moment of enjoyment for all players. I am well aware that some players have a playing style that implies the destroying of other players game, I've met many along the aforementioned fair players in my weekly gaming hours, but this means neither that I should like this behaviour, nor that I won't try to do something (In the improbable case that I'm able) to change things. Anyway, all this is going a bit astray, to not say a little off-topic. My hopes goes towards the devs pronouncing on the original matter (as improbable as this may be) so with the official word we will be able to put our hearts at peace one way or another (at least in regard to this aspect of the game) and keep playing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Stoner Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 The game must want me to go on a losing streak. 3 days until end of the season I run out of targets I was able to defeat safely, and now, close to 2 days to ES, I'm about to end the last few RNG/dice decided fights, after that is two days of losses ahead. The League Season placements, Group draws or whatever need to be reworked a bit. I didn't refill at all, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zteev Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 On 10/15/2018 at 4:45 PM, Super Stoner said: The game must want me to go on a losing streak. 3 days until end of the season I run out of targets I was able to defeat safely, and now, close to 2 days to ES, I'm about to end the last few RNG/dice decided fights, after that is two days of losses ahead. The League Season placements, Group draws or whatever need to be reworked a bit. I didn't refill at all, btw. That means nothing is wrong. You promoted to a league where you fit in reasonably well, and are actually above average. You've got 4 days of wins, 1 day of close fights, and 2 days of losses out of 7. That means you're stronger than most of those in your league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zteev Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 On 10/13/2018 at 7:00 AM, casey said: I disagree with you, last week in my wanker 3 league I had the 6th or 7th best team and determined that I wouldn't finish in the top 4. I knew that I could easily finish in the top 15 and be promoted to sexpert 1, but without winning a major prize so I decided not to finish in the promotion range and stay in wanker 3. This week I have one of the two top teams in my wanker 3 league and should finish in the top 4 with the possibility of winning also. If I'm going to be crushed on a regular basis on promotion to sexpert 1 at least I want a nice reward for my efforts. I guess I was unclear - I was referring to relegating downward intentionally, as the break even requires finding a league weaker than you at the extreme top, which is beyond one's control. You're not trying to relegate, you are simply trying to not promote. Not promoting into a league where you are going to get crushed makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chthugha Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Well, it seems I am going to finish top 15, even though I'd rather not promote to Sexpert I 😣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habi Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) i'm having a close race to finish top30 in s1. ~~31-45th already gets fewer kobans than 16-75 got before the patch iirc~~. nevermind, i confused it with s2. on a sidenote: how can i strike through something on the forum from the mobile browser? Edited October 17, 2018 by Habi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casey Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 Well it's the last day of this season, it is time for the true contenders to make their presence felt. I needed to buy a 6 combat point refill so that I could have the maximum number of fights in my league's season. Things are looking good for me, unless I have made a major miscalculation I should not finish worse than 2nd in my wanker 3 league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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