PvP (Leagues) Isn't "Secondary". It's Central and Brokenly Imbalanced! How About a Fix?

[Chthugha]

10 minutes ago, Sygfried94 said:

problem if you do that you send a message that free player do not have anymore chance to get more girl. With their rythm it will kill the game

Fewer events per month makes it easier. Also, most players already do not have that opportunity right now anyway.

[jelom]

Trying to put the thread on tracks again.

There are a lot of posts discussing if the league is well or bad designed and if it is benefitting just a very small group of players. That should be settled by now (even if most people will still retain his opinions).

But I see almost no proposals to do changes aimed to improve the leagues if you want to do it more competitive.

[Sygfried94]

29 minutes ago, Chthugha said:

Fewer events per month makes it easier. Also, most players already do not have that opportunity right now anyway.

most complainer are winning more koban than they are explaining and most player they are complaigning about are winning less than what they think. only those who are able to top 4 d3 or top 1 d2 with regularity have better gain, under that it's basicly managing your income and outcome depending of where you are and what you can expect.

you know one thing also about most people who complain have in common, they are evolving in league rank way higher than what their lvl ranking should allow. if we consider around 50 league per braquet it's mean people who are ranked 1 to 5000 xp should be in d3, 5000-10000 in d2 10 000 15000 in d1 15000-2000 in s3 etc..

dvd for exemple shoud lhave been played in d1 not d3 if you check his lvl ranking,  that the main reason if they goes on higher rank they have to compensate their low ranking with booster. making their gain less that in low division

 

9 minutes ago, jelom said:

Trying to put the thread on tracks again.

There are a lot of posts discussing if the league is well or bad designed and if it is benefitting just a very small group of players. That should be settled by now (even if most people will still retain his opinions).

But I see almost no proposals to do changes aimed to improve the leagues if you want to do it more competitive.

it's because most league proposal are mainly focus on league system and not on how the system work to get the skill (character stats). without a system on stat that 1 allow newer player to catch older one but also making older one to be active to still get their rank we won't get anywere

Edited September 16, 2020 by Sygfried94

[Chthugha]

@DvDivXXX You seem to know the answer; what do you suggest to change to solve this "huge ass problem". The only reason people see it as a problem, is because of the huge koban rewards. Why is it a problem? They cannot get it, so they go to the next highest thing they can get, "taking it away from the ones who "deserve it more". Putting in level restrictions solves nothing, it will only put the problem on a the new threshold. Putting a level cap in play also doesn't help, because it will only move the current midtier players closer to their goal (after a long time), but it will move the problem to the next group, who will still not be able to do the things. It wouldn't fix how broken it is. There will still be players who are worse than others and those will still take away rewards at lower tiers. In fact, it will cause a rimple effect over time, where the rewards are basically set in stone.
Therefore you can do only one thing; remove the huge koban rewards. It will take away the primary reason people think it's a problem, but it will also take away their hope of eventually being able to get into the same prize range. Therefore it's the solution nobody wants. It creates equal footing. It's also not exactly a problem, because that's how the game was before. If you then move on from the current congested system of events and go to main, orgy and one special (ED/LD/LC/PoA) per month then that's more than enough. But players always want more, so they want a way that gives them more, and not a way that gives everyone less.

So again, what's your solution? I've seen none, only belittling of other players, because they can't fathom how hard it is for you.

[DvDivXXX]

Okay, try not to go off-topic too much and please avoid trolling (and troll-feeding), people.

It seems that I was wrong about @mikcris getting the gist of how things work despite his errors and "real money gives XP" misconception, as he demonstrated since then. He'll have the chance to enjoy a few days off and he'll hopefully get into the habit of reading other people's posts before repeating misinformation when he comes back.

On the other hand, @Fiel 's efforts to post more sparingly and more reasonable content compared to the previous page are appreciated.

As for you, @Sygfried94 thanks for contributing, even if your English isn't easy to follow, and some of your points seem lost in translation. I'll ask you to kindly make an effort on your formatting if you can (avoid multiple empty lines in a row, try to make paragraphs etc.) to save space.

More importantly, the hints I previously gave to Fiel and other players with a similar perspective also apply to you. Please avoid trolling or spouting conspiracy theories or misinformation here. You're entitled to your opinion, as dodgy as it may be, but you're not entitled to pollute the thread to propagate your agenda. Your (very) thinly veiled insults towards those you perceive as threats to the current league status quo are not welcomed here, and there will be consequences if you keep this up. Feel free to stick to the FR section instead if it's more to your liking.

As for those with selective memories ( @jelom and @Chthugha primarily), may I invite you to go back to this thread's giant OP, as well as the first couple of pages in general, and rediscover all of the solutions that were suggested and heavily discussed, mostly by @_shal_ and myself back then? Cheers.
 

[Kenrae]

3 hours ago, Slynia said:

If we wanna go small, redesign the rewards so that it's worth promoting and stay in that higher league tier, or if we wanna go big, redesign the entire thing.
Lastly, to make it more balanced, I still think that we are in desperate need of a level cap (I don't see any other way of ever balancing the PvP aspect of the game out). We have been chasing XP for years already. I'm ready for something else.

Decreasing the prize difference inside the same league and increasing it between leagues would make wonders. At least until they do a full redesign.

[bill1]

I do not quite understand what the discussion is about (not at all there yet, only level 298; small S3 player 😅), however isn`t the main concern here that some players have an advantage over others in league play simply because they started the game earlier and therefore have acquired an higher level.

If that is the case, why not boost the levels for all other players based on the highest level player. For instance let`s say highest level 450. Experience will be boosted for the number of levels below 450. I`m no math expert but someone must know a formula for something like that that can work.

At my novice math level something like level 449 gets a boost of experience :  (1 + (450-449)/450) * normal experience. Maybe optimalize the formula. 

If this is applied it takes time, but at least there is a method to get closer, and eventually even almost close the gap (in a very long run). At the moment it seems to be impossible to catch up.  

[Čamuga]

1 minute ago, bill1 said:

I do not quite understand what the discussion is about (not at all there yet, only level 298; small S3 player 😅), however isn`t the main concern here that some players have an advantage over others in league play simply because they started the game earlier and therefore have acquired an higher level.

If that is the case, why not boost the levels for all other players based on the highest level player. For instance let`s say highest level 450. Experience will be boosted for the number of levels below 450. I`m no math expert but someone must know a formula for something like that that can work.

At my novice math level something like level 449 gets a boost of experience :  (1 + (450-449)/450) * normal experience. Maybe optimalize the formula. 

If this is applied it takes time, but at least there is a method to get closer, and eventually even almost close the gap (in a very long run). At the moment it seems to be impossible to catch up.  

I think boosting everybody definitely isnt a good idea and could cause many other problems. Optimizing the xp formula/displacing the XP reward from the league though could be an option to be looked into, as 90% of the xp gained is from the leagues, 2% is from that arena reward and 8% from missions. I do gotta ask- you're in S3, what's the highest level player you see there? I constantly see at least 2 420+ level guys in D1...

[bill1]

2 minutes ago, Čamuga said:

I think boosting everybody definitely isnt a good idea and could cause many other problems. Optimizing the xp formula/displacing the XP reward from the league though could be an option to be looked into, as 90% of the xp gained is from the leagues, 2% is from that arena reward and 8% from missions. I do gotta ask- you're in S3, what's the highest level player you see there? I constantly see at least 2 420+ level guys in D1...

The highest now is 408 and 400 (both demoting to S2...), lowest is 227. 

21 players level 350 and higher. 

Something like 45 players between 300 and 350

There are 35 players with a lower level than me (298). 

Because I lose many league fights, experience gained suffers a lot. I can win fights for 3 days, and lose 4 days. Quite annoying in a PoA event. 

[windia]

Around the time, when this thread sparked, the Legendary Contest was new in town.

I myself claimed then that this feature breaks the way of getting girl - because my success in getting is someone elses loss in getting.

I did not see that with the leagues a huge imbalance already was in place. 

 

On the one hand I was unwilling to fight 2 minutes in the middle of the night - and after being a while in D leagues, I finally did the math about "booster investment vs. koban reward"... So my account does nowadays an up-down. Which is less stressful during up and stressfree during down.

This point change - from "1 or 3" to "3 up to 25" helped a bit with the nightshift - it just is a minor thing regarding what is discussed here.

 

I myself don't have a real new idea. I merely wanted to write down what I did not in the thread's beginning.

So thank you for the thread itself.

Edited September 16, 2020 by windia

[Lemus]

Really flood and everything, as they say, is off topic.

But if we talk about specific proposals, then no matter how much I thought the only way to make the competition in the tower normal and interesting for everyone is to remove the connection between the player's level (and everything connected with it) in the game and in the tower. And to make this whole process softer and more casual for the player. There is no other way.

I'll tell you how I see it.

After entering the tower competition for the first time, the player has the first "tower level". By winning or losing, he gains "league experience" which increases his strength. You just need to make sure that the experience for a loss is not, as it is now, 5 times less than for a victory, but, for example, in the worst case, half of the winning one.

Then it all depends on the player - you can thoughtfully select opponents and move faster, or you can just press x15 battles and not bother too much, but the result will be the same - sooner or later you will be in the top of the last league where unique and rich prizes should await you - exclusive girls , orbs, gold and so on. Got them and start all over again from the first tower level. The entire league passage should take from a month to three.

In order to leave an incentive for growth in the usual levels of the game, you can divide the tower into divisions depending on the level in the game. I would do 50-250, 250-400, 400+ like this. Prizes in the senior leagues should be slightly higher, say + 30-50%, but not tenfold as now.

Just to implement all this, there is one simple problem. You have to spend a lot of worker time on development and balancing, which the KK is clearly not particularly eager to do.

But there is nothing you can do about it if you want to change something, you have to do it and there are no other options. Because -

[test_anon]

Just to show how much the leagues are broken.

In D2 :

15th: 4790 points

31th: 4730 points

 

Only 60 points of difference... try to aim in between without login at the reset time... It's just crazy.

[Fiel]

On 9/16/2020 at 2:24 PM, DvDivXXX said:

This discussion isn't about how you might be jealous that the current noobs have it relatively easy compared to those who started years ago.

I'm not jealous of you, let's make that clear. I'm  challenging the notion that you  deserve to win as many Koban as some of the lower elite players have.
Below here, you already demonstrated to me that you don't have what it takes to defeat an all knowing elite player above your level

On 9/16/2020 at 12:14 PM, DvDivXXX said:

See, @Fiel? Now that's a struggle, and a result one can legit be proud of. Sorry for taking myself as an example, but there hasn't been many players getting that ahead of the curve since Shal made his breakthrough about a year ago.

Beating another God-mode player as a God-mode player yourself, with a puny difference of 12 levels between their insane advantage over the rest of the field and your own? Not so much, sorry to break it to you (although Shal already tried).

Thanks for the laugh.

It's the other way around. It is I who am not impressed by you.

For example, even if you were given enough EXP to get within 10 levels of an elite player you wouldn't be able to beat them. Why? Because you are famous like Shal, you forever lack the ability to make your opponent underestimate you and lower their guard. The elite player will know alll of your tricks, the elite player would leverage all of his level advantages and knowledge to crush you.

That's why I have some serious doubt that you or shal will be able to defeat  a top league winner who is 10 levels above you.

That's why I challenge the idea that you deserve as much Koban as the top players.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Fiel

[DvDivXXX]

@Fiel I see a lot of self-importance, arrogance and, above all, insecurity in your post above. What I don't see is any valid argument for anything whatsoever, let alone for the points you seem to think you're making. You might not be jealous, but you certainly give away a strong jealous vibe. You might also be confident in your so-called superior knowledge and skills as you so desperately try to have us believe, but you instead come across as someone who constantly needs validation and self-reassurance. All that BS about "elite" and "top"' incorrectly used instead of "high rank" or "high level" says a lot more about you than it does about me, @_shal_, or anyone else...

The TL;DR version of your post is basically "the only skill in league is using the element of surprise". And "you guys are famous, so we can see you coming, therefore you suck". And "therefore you don't deserve to earn as many kobans as random schmucks within your range in the league". This entire line of thinking is so silly and sad that I actually feel more compassion for you and your fragile ego than anything else, reading this.

Check your league privileges and please mind your tone. Also, cut it out right now with this type of gratuitous and extended provocations. Last informal warning.

PS: You also screwed up your quote, there. "Thanks for the laugh" was told to someone else. I wish you'd make me laugh, but instead you make me want to give you a hug and tell you "there, there, everything's gonna be okay".

[Fiel]

37 minutes ago, DvDivXXX said:

@Fiel  you instead come across as someone who constantly needs validation and self-reassurance. All that BS about "elite" and "top"' incorrectly used instead of "high rank" or "high level" says a lot more about you than it does about me, @_shal_, or anyone else...

Nah, for reals, I'm not the one who posts in the League thread every week seeking pats on the shoulder.
And the people you defeated so far are merely people who had levels over you, they are distinctively different from top players who posses more intricate knowledge of the league mechanics.

37 minutes ago, DvDivXXX said:

The TL;DR version of your post is basically "the only skill in league is using the element of surprise". And "you guys are famous, so we can see you coming, therefore you suck". And "therefore you don't deserve to earn as many kobans as random schmucks within your range in the league".

That's a misunderstanding and a display of insufficient knowledge as there is no real way to "surprise" others until it's too late.

To make another player underestimate you, you also need to know advanced rushing tactics to make it look like you're carelessly rushing ahead, even though you really aren't. It's just that being infamous already annuls all of that.
I know you're not impressed by my performance, but it's actually harder than you think to defeat an elite player who knows more than you, and who also happens to be many levels above you. Some of the stuff we achieve might look like it's privilege to you, but much of it is actually hard work and deep analysis of the league mechanics.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Fiel

[Kenrae]

I don't get this "take by surprise" as if the league mechanics in this game were that complex (they're not), or you interacted that much with your opponents. You basically either give it your all taking your time or you cruise by using less time, that's about it, and at most you understimate your whole bracket. As long as there's just one single player you think it's competitive against you you need to take your time, it doesn't matter then if you understimate a third player, it doesn't work like that.

[Fiel]

52 minutes ago, Kenrae said:

I don't get this 

There are various degrees of rushing tactics, ranging from ultra carelessness, to precise and calculated rushes that make you believe I'm careless. The latter is used in the hope that you will underestimate the whole bracket of course.

Normally I wouldn't be giving away this type of info, but I'm at a point where I can't benefit from it anymore. And I do need to make a case for the admins, so they know some of us don't simply operate on privilege.

Some of us actually do put a lot of effort into beating players who are otherwise better than we are.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Fiel

[Dr. Lust]

Horrible now that "D" level players from D1 and D2 dropped all the way down into S2. 

They should put a block on players where as soon as they graduate into a certain level league, such as W1-W3, S1-S3, and D1-D3, they are unable to drop back into the lower ranked league.

Example, once a player goes into the D leagues they cannot drop back into the S league.  And once players graduate into S league they cannot drop back into W league.

True rankings.   Not this BS where whales and sharks can step all over lower ranked players.

Edited September 23, 2020 by DvDivXXX
Mod Edit: Moved to a relevant feedback thread. This isn't content for "How you Doing in the League"

[Kenrae]

4 hours ago, Dr. Lust said:

Horrible now that "D" level players from D1 and D2 dropped all the way down into S2. 

They should put a block on players where as soon as they graduate into a certain level league, such as W1-W3, S1-S3, and D1-D3, they are unable to drop back into the lower ranked league.

Example, once a player goes into the D leagues they cannot drop back into the S league.  And once players graduate into S league they cannot drop back into W league.

True rankings.   Not this BS where whales and sharks can step all over lower ranked players.

That would end with most people crammered into D leagues and nearly no one in the lower leagues, except some people always in S3 finishing between 16-30 during some time. Instead I think it's better to go at the root of this problem: change the prizes so that it simply doesn't make any sense to demote on purpose.

[Observer_X]

5 hours ago, Kenrae said:

Instead I think it's better to go at the root of this problem: change the prizes so that it simply doesn't make any sense to demote on purpose.

I find quite funny that I was one of the first players to state nearly  the same thing a few days after the leagues "reward tiers rebalancing" (a lot of time ago) and at the time people nearly jumped at my throat to have complained against the "purposefully demoted". 😣

Edited September 23, 2020 by Observer_X

[_shal_]

7 minutes ago, Observer_X said:

I find quite funny that I was one of the first players to state nearly  the same thing a few days after the leagues "reward tiers rebalancing" (a lot of time ago) and at the time people nearly jumped at my throat to have complained against the "purposefully demoted". 😣

The one that left the rewards for the top 15 places completely untouched and thus had absolutely no bearing on the issue of people doing win/tank cycles?

Edit: I only recall people having a go at you over this particular issue when you stupidly proclaimed that players who tank are essentially immoral people who deserve to be removed from the game.

Edited September 23, 2020 by _shal_

[ID 2958531]

6 hours ago, Kenrae said:

That would end with most people crammered into D leagues and nearly no one in the lower leagues, except some people always in S3 finishing between 16-30 during some time. Instead I think it's better to go at the root of this problem: change the prizes so that it simply doesn't make any sense to demote on purpose.

I also found it a bit strange that many level +400 players occupied the high price ranges in S1..3 and win S1, S2 and S3 four times each. players who intentionally demote by not scoring any tower points should be punished by losing several levels to fit into the lower leagues. This would give hard working players more chances to gain more and easier climb up.

 

[_shal_]

5 hours ago, ID 2958531 said:

I also found it a bit strange that many level +400 players occupied the high price ranges in S1..3 and win S1, S2 and S3 four times each. players who intentionally demote by not scoring any tower points should be punished by losing several levels to fit into the lower leagues. This would give hard working players more chances to gain more and easier climb up.

Many players who do the promote/demote cycles would probably love to be dropped more than one tier at a time, because it would mean they spend fewer weeks demoting and more weeks promoting.

Way late edit: Or did you actually mean to suggest that players should be losing hero levels? Yeah, no, never gonna happen.

Edited September 23, 2020 by _shal_

[DvDivXXX]

14 hours ago, _shal_ said:

Way late edit: Or did you actually mean to suggest that players should be losing hero levels? Yeah, no, never gonna happen.

Yeah, I understood it the same as you initially. And yeah, evil (and dumb) as going as far down as S-anything on purpose when you're high-level enough to crush D2 or compete decently in D3 (if you know what you're doing) might be... depriving players of their XP is outright far too strong of a punishment. And how would you even know if a guy demotes intentionally or not, anyway? Part of the problem (at least when there's that big a gap) comes from the big mistake (in my opinion) of having people removed from leagues altogether after a couple of weeks of inactivity, and then you have D3-level players having to climb the ladder from the ground up when they come back.

No, we need much tighter brackets, with something along the lines of an MMR system, removing or at least drastically changing the automatic demote or promote thresholds, probably give more XP for losses and less for wins (not points, I said XP) and a fairer distribution of rewards across the board, or at the very least within each division.

Either that, or a completely new build, perhaps something NOT based on XP at all, but instead purely MMR-based; but that likely requires more hard work to get right. The main difference for a system like that to work would be that both you and your opponent would artificially have stats adjusted as if you were at the same Hero/Account level during each fight (including Equipment stats, and legendary boosters proportional bonuses). Ideally, we would be able to tell what level we'll play the fight at (for instance it could be the median level of the range between the two of you, so a Level 100 vs a Level 200 = a fight played at Level 150). Couple that with some kind of proper and flexible ranking system, and over time we would have something closer to a fair ladder where skills and tactical choices actually matter the most, and your current XP Level doesn't impact your chances either way.

Basically, the above is a TL;DR of my initial proposals when I started this thread.

[ID 2958531]

14 hours ago, _shal_ said:

Many players who do the promote/demote cycles would probably love to be dropped more than one tier at a time, because it would mean they spend fewer weeks demoting and more weeks promoting.

Way late edit: Or did you actually mean to suggest that players should be losing hero levels? Yeah, no, never gonna happen.

Yeah that's what I were afraid of   if we can't punish these "undead" why not move them to their own special league so they can fight each other ?   

Edited September 24, 2020 by ID 2958531
even I might be there soon as well ...