PvP (Leagues) Isn't "Secondary". It's Central and Brokenly Imbalanced! How About a Fix?

[Chuck Nutz]

I'm a level 284 player and it's the first time that I'm in league S3 but I've already managed to get the 8th place today.

Up to this point and reading your story @Slynia I do get the point you're making for the highest level players as yourself, for me the system as is works out great and because I don't really care or think about the highest level players since you higher players aren't getting in the way of lower level players very much, I mean it's the first time I got in S3 and there are only 2 level 400+ players in my league, I know that if they really want to be first and second they probably can I don't know and I wouldn't be able to win from them even if I would use all boosters I don't think I can win so it's sad that it means that no lower level player can get 1st or 2nd place if they really want that and do everything right, to me it isn't really a big problem that I wouldn't get 1st or 2nd place because I still can promote to next league and if it's too much for me I simply get demoted next week to go back one league. 

Since the two level 400+ highly likely aren't gonna be in the same league next week there's a chance for others to get 1st and 2nd place, also it's highly likely that those level 400+ players aren't gonna be able to win everything and get everything during a full week even lower levels would have a chance to get 1st or 2nd place this week, I think that this scenario would be the same for other players of my level and lower so I think for lower level players it doesn't even come to mind of making any changes to the way the leagues work.

I do understand the issue you guys have though, but for lower level players it's not even on their radar.

Maybe it's a good idea to make some changes for higher level players only and do a partly change in the leagues just for level 400+ players to keep it interesting for you guys and I think it would be easier to implement a partly change for 400+ level players in the leagues than doing it for all players.

[Luffy3637]

Hmmm....I think a first step to rebalancing is allowing players to compete for top 15 without the worries of being auto promoted until you reach a certain lvl for that league. I play in D2 and leave 60 to 100 fights on the table to finish below 15th cause I don't want to not play ever other week! If promoting is optional up to a certain lvl for each league, it would be more competitive. Once that lvl is reached you would have to switch to tanking every other week to keep playing in that league or try for top 15 in your new league, without the worry of being auto promoted until you reach a higher lvl. This would allow players coming up in the system to get better rewards and more xp. There is alot more you could do to fix the leagues but this one change would allow me as a lower lvl(326) to find the bracket that I belong in and can compete in each week. 

[Chuck Nutz]

I have to see that in practice before I can make an educated comment on what you suggest @Luffy3637

What I already said before, the issues that 400+ level players have in the leagues I'm almost certain that it isn't even on the radar for lower level players. I haven't give it a thought before I read the posts here on the forum today.

However I do understand your issue and I agree with the suggestions you make mostly, also I stand for my opinion to first make the changes for only 400+ level players before changing it for all players since I think that I speak for most lower level players that it isn't even on their radar.

[GeorgeMTO]

22 minutes ago, Chuck Nutz said:

I think that I speak for most lower level players that it isn't even on their radar.

Mod Hat: Please don't try to claim you're speaking for a group of people, especially when many comments in this thread from that group of people are directly contradicting what you're saying.

[natstar]

1 hour ago, Luffy3637 said:

Hmmm....I think a first step to rebalancing is allowing players to compete for top 15 without the worries of being auto promoted until you reach a certain lvl for that league. I play in D2 and leave 60 to 100 fights on the table to finish below 15th cause I don't want to not play ever other week! If promoting is optional up to a certain lvl for each league, it would be more competitive. Once that lvl is reached you would have to switch to tanking every other week to keep playing in that league or try for top 15 in your new league, without the worry of being auto promoted until you reach a higher lvl. This would allow players coming up in the system to get better rewards and more xp. There is alot more you could do to fix the leagues but this one change would allow me as a lower lvl(326) to find the bracket that I belong in and can compete in each week. 

Might as well just make them level based like contests and give the reward out based on the players level if doing that.

The point of top 15 is to get high leveled players out of the low level brackets but as you know they can just not do all their fights to stay out of moving up.

Edited September 28, 2020 by natstar

[DvDivXXX]

3 hours ago, Chuck Nutz said:

I'm a level 284 player and it's the first time that I'm in league S3

3 hours ago, Chuck Nutz said:

I think that this scenario would be the same for other players of my level and lower so I think for lower level players it doesn't even come to mind of making any changes to the way the leagues work.

No offense, but you're not really playing the leagues yet. Judging from your in-game profile and recent posts, you're a slow starter and either a casual player, or you've been playing on and off again. Either way, you're still firmly rooted in the early-game perspective, despite having started almost 4 months before I did. To give you an idea of what an active and competitive player can get done in a shorter amount of time than your account's lifespan, I'm at level 349 with 2.5x more girls than you in my harem, and I started playing in D2 over 6 months ago, and in D3 for the past month now.

1 hour ago, Chuck Nutz said:

I stand for my opinion to first make the changes for only 400+ level players before changing it for all players

This further confirms that you're not yet in a position to even form an opinion on this topic, unfortunately. There's a world of difference between "400+ players" and low-level casuals such as yourself. Tons of players (maybe most, at least among active players) are somewhere in between these two extremes, and this entire discussion is first and foremost about the extreme imbalance those players experience. Of course leagues seem fine for players who have barely scratched their surface. This isn't what we're discussing here, though.

[Kenrae]

I was going to say something similar. High level players don't have a problem, it's players between levels ~300-420 who have a problem with this system.

[Chuck Nutz]

@DvDivXXX I totally agree with you and I don't see myself as a hardcore player, I do play very regular though but because I'm playing the game for quite some time I believe that you can imagine that I have an opinion about the game and that I know enough and played enough to see the bigger picture but from my perspective.

I know I can't compare myself to the higher level players, but I only thought that I was being useful by sharing the train of my thoughts at the moment so you guys have some info from players like I am and be able to see it from my perspective.

[DvDivXXX]

2 hours ago, Chuck Nutz said:

I only thought that I was being useful by sharing the train of my thoughts at the moment so you guys have some info from players like I am and be able to see it from my perspective.

Okay. So, you've done that. And I've explained that your perspective isn't very relevant in this discussion, since you are not in a position to perceive the issues discussed in this thread. Moving on, now. ^^

[Sygfried94]

On 9/23/2020 at 7:45 PM, DvDivXXX said:

Either that, or a completely new build, perhaps something NOT based on XP at all, but instead purely MMR-based; but that likely requires more hard work to get right. The main difference for a system like that to work would be that both you and your opponent would artificially have stats adjusted as if you were at the same Hero/Account level during each fight

the main problem with that his it's no more rewarding to grown for player neither playing long terme also the game is lacking too much way faire player to make a 100 league ranking without lvl. There would be also big problem in term of  market and equipment, low lvl player will have a big avantage since they will have fiew stats and at low cost to grow and will directly be able to have an overhelming advantage. it wil llead to some old account creating new account just for league like it's happens on other mmo.

On 9/23/2020 at 7:45 PM, DvDivXXX said:

Couple that with some kind of proper and flexible ranking system, and over time we would have something closer to a fair ladder where skills and tactical choices actually matter the most, and your current XP Level doesn't impact your chances either way.

You are wrong there, just check top 100 xp player and check all victory in d3, you will find a big gap between each, because there is still a good marging in term of playing. If you exclude top 10 xp player, the rest of the top 200 are quite close enough to make a real fight when 2 or 3 are together. and that is already a big change from fiew month ago and this will continue.

Speaking of fair ladder is non sense in a competition point of view, the only thing fair is that every one get the same rules to begin with but who do the best doesn't desserve to get a handicap because he is the best.

also making a system where fresh player can get the upper hand against old player is very dangerous in term of game thinking. it will give a signal to player that they do not have benefit to play for a long time on the game.

Since it basicly player view based  you'll always find player that will complain on the result what ever the system is. but it very difficult to find a compromise.

Honestly i don't know what would be the best in hh but since it built some competition on the past on sport and i know that some way of making competition with good reward always fails. handicap system always favour cheater since the competition always end of how to get the biggest advantage /lowest handicap to get easy win. (you can already find it with those who going up and down to get lower top 1 victory)

Not having a way to get winner looser or ranking, it may look strange but in a flat stat game like hh it's difficult to overcome it. on that a everyone got same lvl and stats is exactly where it will end. and with the booster and the booster cost it will end to be a nightmare in term of koban for every competitive player.

 

On other end an endless xp system is also damaging for the game in long term, it also put player giving account and other problem. so on my view point there should be not a one system league but 2 system league that should be in place, first one where people under 2 year lvl are fight with something near the actual system and a second system no more lvl based for over 2 year lvl based with some new way for people to make difference

[Pelinor]

I have a vague idea for a partial Tower of fame fix based (in part) on the median player level in each league, but I do not have stats for each leagues average player level to do any sort of true hypothetical player runs. In other words, this idea may be unworkable and I acknowledge this possibility before I start.

 

The first idea is to base promotion to a higher league on performance versus the leagues median player average with a counter to determine a players determination to advance to the next league. The concept is to give players an incentive to play their best by not condemning them when they are placed in a lethargic or weak league. 

For the purpose of creating an example lets say the median player level in the league is 150 and our player is level 100. In this scenario even if the player placed first in the league they would not be promoted to the next league. His determination counter would be incremented by one and he would be given a generic "atta-boy," keep up the good work message. This player would not be advanced until he proved he wanted to advance by beating the median player average three times with a top fifteen finish (I use three in this scenario to maintain the symmetry of the W,S,D league brackets). A player who was, say level 200 in this example would be advanced because he is above the median player average.

 

The second part of this idea deals with demotions and also uses the player determination counter in reverse. So a player below the leagues median player level would automatically  demoted with a poor finish, but a player above the average would get a "tough week," better luck next week generic message until they proved they wanted to go down to a lower league three times. The idea behind this part of the idea is to remove the yo-yo incentive for players which currently exists.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Pelinor

[Sygfried94]

On 10/4/2020 at 1:25 PM, Pelinor said:

I have a vague idea for a partial Tower of fame fix based (in part) on the median player level in each league, but I do not have stats for each leagues average player level to do any sort of true hypothetical player runs. In other words, this idea may be unworkable and I acknowledge this possibility before I start.

 

it is unworkable. lvl is one thing, but club, booster and market are still a major play that doesn't appear in your system. There is no magic solution, 

What i do not like in every lvl based solution to create league is basicly that people who does not want to be in a club will be punished much more than they are already

[Pelinor]

2 minutes ago, Sygfried94 said:

it is unworkable. lvl is one thing, but club, booster and market are still a major play that doesn't appear in your system. There is no magic solution, 

What i do not like in every lvl based solution to create league is basicly that people who does not want to be in a club will be punished much more than they are already

I agree with you that my idea doesn't address those issues. The main strength of the idea is to give back at least a small bit of determination on where their character is playing. 

[natstar]

3 hours ago, Sygfried94 said:

it is unworkable. lvl is one thing, but club, booster and market are still a major play that doesn't appear in your system. There is no magic solution, 

What i do not like in every lvl based solution to create league is basicly that people who does not want to be in a club will be punished much more than they are already

You don't need to talk in club chat, so not being in a club means you're losing out on stuff for no reason you gain more from a club than just stat boost such as more money gained and level based league would work like contests so they would be closer to your player level so lower level players could beat other players without using boosters.

[Sygfried94]

1 hour ago, natstar said:

You don't need to talk in club chat, so not being in a club means you're losing out on stuff for no reason you gain more from a club than just stat boost such as more money gained and level based league would work like contests so they would be closer to your player level so lower level players could beat other players without using boosters.

i do not judge why some player choose to not play in club, i agree that there is some advantage to be in a maxed club. but well each week i see around 15 % of player that are not in a club + around the same amount that are in a low club level. Since bonus from club are % it doesn't seems to be a big advantage from a low or medium lvl player but the higher the level we are speaking the higher the effect is. from a lvl 300 view it look like around 30-35 more lvl in power term but for a lvl 400 it's more 45-50 lvl. In term of power from actual d2 d3 medium lvl a lvl 420 in power term will play the first half of d3, the very same player without club will play same but in d2. Every one has his own hand to make choice for booster and stats, club stats are not (or very expensive) in the player choice. So going on a stricly lvl based system will put win priority to player in a maxed club on every league not only for top d3 as it is now. And on a side effect those without club will get problem every week to get match victory that will also give problem on poa and legendary contest

[Lemus]

In my opinion, clubs have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. But if we say that at the moment it is not a problem for an active player to find a club with high stats. Very often when I see a person without a club and look at his profile, I just understand that all these fights and other competitions in the tower and in the arena in general do not care. He has incorrectly selected girls in the team, gear with the wrong stats, and so on. It's just that a person plays relaxed, undresses the girls and all these troubles are not interesting to him at all, that's all. And for hardcore introverts, there is an option to create a club just for oneself and pump it up. It's not easy, of course, but it is quite achievable, and even with donation without any problems. I know at least one such player, I constantly encounter him in the arena.

[Sygfried94]

9 hours ago, Lemus said:

In my opinion, clubs have nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

it's a league discussion, and what is important in league is stats, lvl only work as a stats limiter and that the key but everything that give stats bonus have to be taken in account when you try to discuss and build up something. there was already change in the past on league and each time one limiter has been taken off it was only leading to complain about the next limiter. So ignoring something as important as club bonus or booster when trying to think of a way to build up league will only lead to make it next complain.

Without a hard rework on how to get stats every change done will only be ok this problem will be now lower but this one will be bigger.

For exemple: when kinkoid made the change in the xp system in december. new people can get lvl much quicker than before, side effect yoyo people can do their way of playing much longer than before because it reduce the xp loss from each upper division. For exemple, if you want to limit a lot yoyo player simply had to put an xp bonus/ malus based on the lvl difference or from your league ranking. By increasing the xp bonus from the good way of playing, it won't stop people doing yoyo but it will shorten the time they can do it efficiently

[blaa]

I cant remember every post in here, but what if they made a fixed price per league which is distributed by following factors: your level and placement in relation to the average player level of the league, so a 340 player who finishes on 20th place gets more than a 420 players with the same level. (it also could be: there is a small fixed amount for every placement + a flexibel amount regariding your level and placement in relation to the average player level)

Yeah, probably very hard to balance and maybe even harder to code, but maybe not that bad in terms of fairness?

[windia]

13 hours ago, blaa said:

I cant remember every post in here, but what if they made a fixed price per league which is distributed by following factors: your level and placement in relation to the average player level of the league, so a 340 player who finishes on 20th place gets more than a 420 players with the same level. (it also could be: there is a small fixed amount for every placement + a flexibel amount regariding your level and placement in relation to the average player level)

Yeah, probably very hard to balance and maybe even harder to code, but maybe not that bad in terms of fairness?

well, the solution needs to be KISS. 

That is e.g. why the contest times due to legendary contests moved to the same starting and finishing time. 

To have less confusion and something more straight forward. 

I dislike the 30 min gap and I know there is much lag on it. 

It is just much more simpler.

 

All in all there are also different kinds of fairness: everybody the same, everybody to their needs, everybody to their efforts. Can't fulfill all of them simultanously, have to pick one or sometimes two.

[ali-n]

I find it interesting that the Leagues are apparently going to be left as is but stuff "around" them is changing...

From the patch notes #43:

"Leaderboards ＆ Arena

On Monday, 26 October 2020, you will receive your last reward from the Leaderboards. Any actions and conditions afterward will not be counted towards the Leaderboard
 Both the Arena and the Leaderboards will be replaced with a new feature, called Seasons 

Seasons 

Our new feature Seasons will arrive shortly after, which will be a new progression with improvement rewards. 
Themed monthly competitions
Seasons will be located in a new menu in the place of the Arena in the Town
It will work like a monthly-based event based on Mojo
Match making will be based on Mojo

We will reveal more information as soon as it hits the test servers! 

 

[Valgo]

On 6/20/2020 at 5:32 PM, DvDivXXX said:

Houston... Kinkoid, we have a problem!

So, what's wrong, exactly?

Every single week, a dozen players (if that!) each receive well over 14k kobans (aka a jumbo-jet load), the equivalent of a free EPx10 (in orb form, so they can use it whenever they want), and the equivalent of 3 full-bar combativity refills (that they have to use immediately). Another few dozen players (maybe up to a hundred or so, if we add up all top 4 from D1 to D3, bar the D3 winners I just mentioned) each receive something along the lines of a truckload of kobans, a few free combativity refills, and a few EPx1 orbs. Meanwhile, the remaining thousands of players each receive a virtual slap in the face, along with something around 1K kobans at best (aka a pittance). Every single damn week.

 

I been pointing the flaw of the system since the day 1 league

Funny how I still remember some people say the league is balance, deal with it. 🤣

 Even point out the huge gap btw f2p and p2p player when it comes refill purchase, only to be told..cOllEcT tHe k0bAn...

Collect the koban they say, you would have equal competitive ground they say......😂

Oh no... fast refill is too unfair, here is a fix... but let's keep the reward unfair so you can stop dreaming of getting top 15 and just receive a paltry sum of reward for your effort. 🤣

In the meantime, your competitor would be using legendary boost since they can afford it while you would be too poor to use rare boost. 🤣

I honestly at the point of don't even care if they fix it or not. Currently keep holding 1st spot D2 at nutaku after abusing the loop of such a system 😊. If they don't want to fix it, abuse it.

I mean, how fucking hard one need to fix it by simply making the reward of top 15th not higher than reward of 60th+ of higher tier? 

 

On 9/16/2020 at 3:46 AM, Fiel said:

To be honest, some of us actually worked hard for those Koban and defied the higher level opponents against all odds.

These Kobans are Earned, not gifted. Here is a few examples:

https://imgur.com/llZp5K5

https://imgur.com/2mAngCj

This is bad thinking. It's not always the levels, everybody gets that phase where the biggest fish in the pond underestimate you, and then you strike with good planning and smart thinking and achieves that jumbo jet load of reward.

 

Ahhh....basically stalking your opponent until his boost run out and attack him so you won't lost too much point from fight. 

 

Such a brilliant mastermind...🤣

Damn... D3 with highest level being only 428? Does HH more casual than Nutaku?

Edited October 29, 2020 by Valgo

[natstar]

If they change how rewards work with leagues they might do a second unlockable path just like how they did with arena so you will end up paying for the extra rewards if you want to unlock them.

they like the poa unlockable reward way enough to do one poa event a month and are using it on arena now as well so not hard to see them doing it on the leagues if they changed how it works either.

 

[Cantrix]

Agree, to this day i can't overcome my resentment over the XP implementation in the leagues and it's removal from arena. Unwanted pvp content is pushed down players' throats by making it mandatory part of the game( aka still remember the good old days when pvp wasn't part of contest performance and there was no fricking  legendary contest, nor no path of attraction) Those were good times, i was laughing at the competitive players spending  fortunes  to rush their leagues and was happy to miss out on all those kobans and FRUSTRATION. Then pvp performance was added to contests, exp was added i  pvp and slowly but surely made that HELLISH part of the game MANDATORY, despite being simply and addition and not a core element as cited in the OP post. Split up pvp and pve again. Let the ToF koban rewards stay, but remove the exp it provides,bring it back to the quests. Remove pvp tasks from contests and poa, it's this simple.

[natstar]

9 hours ago, Cantrix said:

Agree, to this day i can't overcome my resentment over the XP implementation in the leagues and it's removal from arena. Unwanted pvp content is pushed down players' throats by making it mandatory part of the game( aka still remember the good old days when pvp wasn't part of contest performance and there was no fricking  legendary contest, nor no path of attraction) Those were good times, i was laughing at the competitive players spending  fortunes  to rush their leagues and was happy to miss out on all those kobans and FRUSTRATION. Then pvp performance was added to contests, exp was added i  pvp and slowly but surely made that HELLISH part of the game MANDATORY, despite being simply and addition and not a core element as cited in the OP post. Split up pvp and pve again. Let the ToF koban rewards stay, but remove the exp it provides,bring it back to the quests. Remove pvp tasks from contests and poa, it's this simple.

Still no exp from pvp wins from the seasons arena you would think that they would at least increase the affection/exp from girls there since you still gain it when fighting players on the test server but unless they are a low level player you cannot use more than one low level girl.

[Z-Wave]

@Kinkoid @Noacc With the first players getting closer to level 500, I'd like to invite you back to this discussion. What is your current strategy? Do you plan on raising the level cap while keeping the XP progression locked? I highly recommend doing at least the most simple of DvDivXXX's suggestions and do it the other way around: Unlock XP progression while keeping the level 500 cap forever so the unbalanced league can over time (a long time) fix itself.

And while as a business you probably want to increase profit, here's my take on that (quoted myself from another thread on this forum): On first glance one might think that infinitely raising the max level would lure the whales into paying more and more money and be the way to go. When you think about it, the opposite might be the case. Because of the ridiculous free rewards for whales (14.4K Kobans + 1 free Pachinko girl per week from D3 League alone) there's no real reason to spend any real money anymore. I personally changed from the gold monthly card to the silver monthly card a few months ago, because I just didn't need the extra Kobans or free spins on Champions and Villains. I assume most of us high level players don't invest any more than the monthly gold card because there's just no value to get. On the other side: If the level cap would stay at 500, we would at some point not get those guaranteed rank 1 D3 rewards anymore that can easily pay for all the new content. There will be a real competition, and Kobans will become more valuable again, so we might spend some actual money. For everybody not yet in the whale-tier it would be more desirable to get there as quickly as possible so they can compete with absolutely everybody, thererfore their payments will increase (or at least not decrease). It's a win-win for everyone.

So, I don't have the numbers to support that theory, but please crunch your numbers before you make such a big move again. If you just raise the level cap and hope for a new influx in money, this might backfire hard. Whales won't spend much money anymore due to their unchallenged league rewards. Present money-spenders might leave because they realize they'll never catch up and lose hope. New players might be turned off right away when doing their calculations on how long it will take to theoretically max out.

I'm looking forward to your feedback on this!